Is trump really immoral

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Is trump really immoral

Viewing 0 posts
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1834024
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Seems most posters here, myself included, take it as a given that trump is a very immoral person. Some of us say therefore I’ll never vote for him, some say even so I’ll vote for him, and son say who cares.
    But everyone agrees if is immoral
    And suddenly I asked myself.
    Really? What about him is so objectionable as to call him immoral?
    Actions from 20-30 years ago?
    That’s the issue?
    Has he done anything immoral lately?
    In the last ten years?
    Someone enlighten me here.
    Reb Eliezer?

    #1834062
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Would you want him do be a role model for your children?

    #1834079
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I don’t know a good midah that he has. haughty, liar, unforgiving, vindictive, selfish, liar, unapologetic without empathy, , sewer mouth etc.

    #1834080
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    The only reason Trump is president is because of his fame or “persona”

    For years he cultivated himself as a brash, say what you want to get it, bullying businessman who gets it done regardless of what it takes. In the Art of the deal he (or his ghost writer) brags about how he enjoys lying hype up the value of what he is selling . He doesnt believe in Truth the way most of us do. Sure Politicians lie, but Trump’s persona is built on repeating a lie often enoughand brazenly enough that people arent so sure anymore.
    He ushered in the era of “alternative facts” and “fake news” as Trump explained ““You know why I do it? I do it to discredit you all and demean you all so that when you write negative stories about me, no one will believe you.” It isnt about truth if a story is negative he doesn’t want you to believe it it is “fake”

    That is who he is, that isnt something that happened 20-30 years ago that is his very being.

    To a lesser extent there is his objectifying women (including his own daughter on a radio show that isn’t worthy of mention) , demonizing those who fall from favor . Again these arent specific events from years ago that is who he is. People don’t change at age 70 .

    But the main reason (in my view) is the first.

    #1834095
    pro geshmake yidden
    Participant

    That was a great response
    Side point – klugeryid you ask if he did anything lately, in the past ten years. Do we know? And if we don’t does that mean anything? There’s no chiyuv of dan lkaf zc his
    Look in Gemara shabbos daf ayin tes you’ll find a clear answer

    #1834096
    Joseph
    Participant

    Every goy is immoral.

    Reb Eliezer, you shouldn’t want ANY goy to be a role model for your children.

    #1834098
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “Again these arent specific events from years ago that is who he is. People don’t change at age 70 “

    So you would say the same about Biden’s or Bloomberg’s too?

    #1834105
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    To elaborate a bit more

    words have to have meaning in order for society to function.
    for example when a poster says Democrats support “infanticide” When called out on that falsehood, its one thing to say “dont be such a stickler” I was exagerating/using hyperbole to make a point, of course it isnt true. Fine I m ok with that reasonable people can disagree on what falls in to acceptable hyperbole.

    but when he doubles down and insists on the lie being true, THAT is the problem . not everybody is able to discern the difference .

    Trumps’ entire persona is built on telling people what they want to hear. As his writer quotes him in The art of the deal “Truthful hyperbole”

    #1834125
    klugeryid
    Participant

    still not “immoral”
    despicable? perhaps
    but “words have to have meaning in order for society to function.”
    immoral usually referrs to arayos related
    i wouldnt call making standeard goy comments “immoral

    #1834131
    Someone in Monsey
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer – he let Rubashkin out of jail. That’s not embelmetic of someone “without empathy”.

    #1834134
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Joseph, you don’t know what you talking about. Schindler was moral than trump. There were a list of goyim who saved Jews at the holocaust endangering themselves. The Rambam:
    רמב”ם הלכות תשובה פרק ג
    וכן חסידי אומות העולם יש להם חלק לעולם הבא

    #1834136
    funnybone
    Participant

    I strongly disagree with Joseph. I believe that there are plenty of moral non-jews. Their standards might not be up to Joseph’s, but he shouldn’t demean people in a public forum.

    #1834150
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Joseph, google non-Jews saving Jews

    #1834128
    akuperma
    Participant

    Define immoral. Whereas once he was a (“borderline”) honest businessman, he has gone out and now associates full time with persons of known dubious ethics (Pirke Avos discusses this class of persons, they are easy to identify since they formally refer to themselves as “the Honorable …., with some title reflect their official position). His political positions are all very conventional (and many were Democratic positions back when he was a Democrat, such as opposition to free trade and immigration), and while his lack of derekh eretz in use of social media may be a problem, I would hardly call that “immoral.”

    While in “intimate” matters he have done a lot of things (especially when younger) that would be unacceptable if he was a Yid, he is a genuine goy (half German, half Scots, no known Jewish ancestry). We tend to ignore what goyim do in bed if it doesn’t affect us (they don’t ask for our hecksher).

    In terms of political leaders we judge them by their policies as they affect us, and in this respect, Trump is probably among the best American presidents, ever (from our perspective, I would put Washington first expanding the concept of religious tolerance to include Jews, and Trump tied for second with Truman).

    #1834139
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “So you would say the same about Biden’s or Bloomberg’s too?”

    Absolutely!
    I’m not sure what you are referring too about Bloomberg.
    But take Sanders, he has been known for his socialist views for decades . It s not a beleif he had “20-30 years ago” Its part of who he is. Even if he ran saying oh I dont believe that stuff anymore, it would be absurd to believe him.

    Its one thing changing your mind about a specific item, say Trump used to be pro – gun control and now changed his mind. Fine nothing wrong with that . but to change your whole persona at age 70? yeah I don’t buy it

    #1834199
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Akupeqma
    I’m with you

    #1834200
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Though I do think that years ago he did cross the line even for a non Jew

    #1834176
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Trump wants to please his family, so Israel, Rabashkin was all family influence but he personally has no empathy. The proof is the children at the boarder, removing children from CHIP and from SNAP.

    #1834298
    interjection
    Participant

    I dont know what chip is but snap only removed people who were ages 18-45 WITHOUT dependents. Therefore minors were not removed from the program even if AOC says that she would’ve starved as a child under these new laws.

    When parents come over the border illegally with their parents, the government needs to verify that those kids actually belong to those parents. There are unfortunately a high number of children who are human trafficking victims.

    It is sad that children are separated from their parents but these parents are criminals because they broke the law by coming into our country illegally. I can imagine that it was an extremely difficult decision to make and they might have felt that they didn’t have a choice to come in legally but they did break the law by not applying normally for citizenship so now the government has to work backwards to find out who these people are and where can we put them. Remember, these people have no money, options for employment, nor place to live.

    #1834376
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    KY

    “immoral usually referrs to arayos related”
    I’m not sure what limited definition you are using (though even in that regard he is guilty he bragged about trying to be with a married woman for crying out loud)

    Oxfor defines Immorality as “not conforming to accepted standards of morality.”

    and to avoid using a word in its definition
    they define morality as “principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.”

    It is in no way limited to arayos. That is the least of his problems (I agree with akuperma on this , though he is lacking there too more than the typical politician, and its not like it was once years ago, he has a decades long pattern of making depraved comments including about his own daughter)

    #1834389
    Joseph
    Participant

    Trump is the biggest Oheiv Yisroel in the White House since George Washington.

    #1834390
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Re
    You know what people coming across the border with children are doing?
    Using their children as human shields
    I believe that is a war crime
    The use of human shields is forbidden by Protocol I of the Geneva Conventions. … The Customary International Humanitarian Law guide suggests that rules prohibiting use of civilians as human shields are “arguably” customary in non-international armed conflict
    So don’t start crying about the government arresting law breakers.
    Every time the government arrest someone they are taking a parent away from children.
    I’m sympathize with some more Palestinians
    כל המרחם……

    #1834403
    klugeryid
    Participant

    though even in that regard he is guilty he bragged about trying to be with a married woman for crying out loud)

    That was years ago
    That was my original point it’s not that way anymore

    #1834416
    Edmark1234
    Participant

    If you are looking for morality then you wouldn’t be able to vote for any candidate in any election anywhere, and its been like this for years. R’moshe Feinstien had stated the importance of participating in democratic system therefor the question becomes choosing the lesser of two evils. Role model is a factor to consider however there other probably more important factors.

    #1834445
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “That was years ago
    That was my original point it’s not that way anymore”

    It wasnt he said many similar things on his show. (thats the crudest example)
    and he has said similar on a radio show that doesn’t deserve mention . Its part of his persona

    #1834453
    Avi K
    Participant

    Funnybone and Reb Eliezer, please do not feed the troll.

    #1834562
    1
    Participant

    Goyim are never supposed to be role models.

    #1834612
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    klugeryid, I am refugee myself from Hungary who came here sixty years ago. We stayed in Austria for 2 1/2 years in wooden barracks until we were able to come here. I thank America and the president at that time, Ike and especially that Trump was not president. When people are desperate, they do desperate things.

    #1834621
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    1, if someone does not want to be a role model, should not be president as we want to look up to them whether they are Jews or goyim.

    #1835113

    You know what people coming across the border with children are doing?
    Using their children as human shields
    I believe that is a war crime

    That’s a very unusual spelling of “I’m a total idiot or troll,” but I’ll accept it.

    #1835130
    klugeryid
    Participant

    That’s a very unusual spelling of “I’m a total idiot or troll,” but I’ll accept it.

    That’s not a very sound logical argument is it?
    If I’m wrong show me how if I’m not then what’s your issue?
    You don’t like how it puts you on the defensive with no response??

    #1835139
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Random
    Someone committing a crime, which he knows carries a certain punishment, who commits the crime while with his children so he can then say you can’t punish me because it will leave the children in a terrible predicament.
    That is classic human shield.
    Does it say anywhere human shield is only if there is danger to life ?

    #1835227
    yuda the maccabi
    Participant

    first we have to define what is meant by moral or immoral according to the Torah not oxford
    second, we cant judge just by what we see in the media being that the media shows only what they want us to see.
    and what someone wrote about being chasidei umos haolam – the definition is not someone who saves yidden it is a goy who keeps sheva mitzvos bnei noach – so if he ever stole anything he is already not a chassid unos haolam
    and there is a machlokes if a goy can do tshuvah

    #1835220

    If I’m wrong show me how if I’m not then what’s your issue?

    My issue is that you should know by yourself that you’re wrong. You asked for this.

    I believe that is a war crime

    Is your next question “Does it say anywhere ‘war crime’ is only if it’s part of a war?”

    Geneva Conventions… civilians… armed conflict

    “People coming across the border” are not involved in armed conflict (which is what the Geneva
    Conventions apply to) and cannot be classed as non-civilians as opposed to their children.

    Someone committing a crime, which he knows carries a certain punishment, who commits the crime while with his children so he can then say you can’t punish me because it will leave the children in a terrible predicament. That is classic human shield.

    The classic use of “human shield” is as a military law term with a specific meaning. (It’s also come to
    be used for any situation in which the tactic is used, but it has no legal ramifications outside war.)
    Also, I disagree with the reason you give here for why people bring their children along
    when attempting to move to another country (the alternative being what, exactly?).

    #1836215
    klugeryid
    Participant

    My issue is that you should know by yourself that you’re wrong.
    But I don’t. If I did I wouldn’t have said it in the first place.
    Seems like you don’t know either, but realizing that my intellect is superior to yours, your asking me to do your work, since you are incapable of doing it.

    You asked for this.
    For what?

    Is your next question “Does it say anywhere ‘war crime’ is only if it’s part of a war?”
    NO I WASN’T GOING TO ASK THAT.
    Geneva Conventions… civilians… armed conflict

    “People coming across the border” are not involved in armed conflict (which is what the Geneva
    Conventions apply to) and cannot be classed as non-civilians as opposed to their children.

    Someone committing a crime, which he knows carries a certain punishment, who commits the crime while with his children so he can then say you can’t punish me because it will leave the children in a terrible predicament. That is classic human shield.

    The classic use of “human shield” is as a military law term with a specific meaning. (It’s also come to
    be used for any situation in which the tactic is used, but it has no legal ramifications outside war.)

    SO YOU ARE FINE WITH SOMEONE ROBBING A STORE AT GUNPOINT WHILE HOLDING THEIR CHILD IN FRONT OF THEM BECAUSE IT’S NOT A WAR OR ARMED ”CONFLICT ”?

    #1836315
    LOTR92
    Participant

    Reb eliezer
    Where in the constitution does it say that a president has to be a good role model to jewish children?

    #1836402
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    So as long as it is not in the constitution the president can be immoral. The Torah says so, as we have a responsibility to raise children properly, we don’t want an immoral role model.

    #1836409
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Reb eliezer,

    Bill Clinton
    Pete Buttigieg
    Creepy joe

    These are just as great role models as our president

    #1836415
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Clinton did not behave like that openly as the language of our president that is directly heard by our children.

    #1836417
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    You are not saying he is moral but the others are immoral two. Two wrongs don’t make a right. When I vote I wil pick simeone who is moral or don’t vote.

    #1836419
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Reb e- if that is true than you haven’t voted in years and won’t be voting for many more

    #1836422
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Reb Moshe says you need to vote
    Rabbi miller says to vote for the candidate who will have more moral policies.
    Not which candidate themselves are more moral. Rather who will further morality in the country.
    Not who will further lead us down the road to sedom
    When faced with a choice of a president who will give money to the poor, and programs for the poor, and sent controlled apartments for the indigent, but will legalize gay marriage and abortion on demand
    Vs a president who will cut and or eliminate all those programs, but will hold on as much as he can, to marriage being a man and a woman, hold on to the fact that an unborn fetus has the status of a live human,
    We are mechuyav to choose the one who will cut the programs.
    We are supposed to worry about כבוד שמים and let הקב”ה worry about the cash.
    Somehow many people have it reversed.
    I’ll worry about the cash and let God worry about morality in the world.
    Feh !!!

    #1836425
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    klugertid, what about midas sedom compared to maasei sedom?

    #1836424
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Besht interprets the pasuk אנכי עומד בין ה’ וביניכם the ego, the self stands between us and Hashem. This president is always involved with himself personally caring very little about the natiion.

    #1836458
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer
    That is totally OK.
    (I personally think he cares a tremendous amount about the nation, albeit because he believes him glory is tied to the success of America), but for. The purpose of the discussion I’ll grant you that he cares not a whit about anyone in the world besides himself and he will sell everyone and everything down the river for a drop more personal glory.
    So what.
    His policies VIs a VIs morality in interpersonal relationships are moral.
    His opposition is the policy of godly destruction.
    You vote for him.
    (as an aside, when hashem has enough of the rampant homosexuality pushing in this country and decides to wipe it off the earth, how’s your welfare programs gonna help you out?
    Or do you not believe that ”hashem hates immorality ”
    Or do you just not care or think about tomorrow?

    #1836519
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    klugeryid, you did not answer my question, is midas sedom immorality?

    #1836537
    klugeryid
    Participant

    That’s a very vague question.
    As per ubiq quoting the Oxford definition, yes
    As per the medrash I’m referencing, no.
    But that’s assuming you are referring to מידת סדום
    As in כופין אותו על מידת סדום which is cases of זה נהנה וזה לא חסר.
    When I said leading up to סדום I was referring to all types of illicit עריות and murder.
    I was using it as a colloquial expression.

    If you clarify your question bit more I’ll be happy to give a more direct answer

    #1836610
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I think midas sedom is not helping by training does that have no skills so they should not have to rely on welfare. and cutting SNAP and CHIP for the poor. I was educated through the CETA program abolished by Reagan.

    #1836711
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Well according to your last post my answer to your question is
    No

    #1836725

    NO I WASN’T GOING TO ASK THAT (“Does it say anywhere ‘war crime’ is only if it’s part of a war?”)

    Well, you were talking about a war crime in a non-war situation, so…

    SO YOU ARE FINE WITH SOMEONE ROBBING A STORE AT GUNPOINT WHILE HOLDING THEIR CHILD IN FRONT OF THEM BECAUSE IT’S NOT A WAR OR ARMED ”CONFLICT ”?

    I’m saying they could not be charged with the war crime of using human shields by a body that deals with
    war crimes. (They could face a child endangerment charge from a law enforcement agency, assuming such a law exists in their country.)

    You didn’t respond about the relevant issue of migrant parents’ intent.

Viewing 0 posts
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.