Is Yiddish Holy?

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  • #1565563

    Athos
    Participant

    Cute, so now you will say that bc the Kohen Gadol wore a certain garment all garments of that sort are holy? I truly hope you were joking.

    #1565600

    laskern
    Participant

    There was a question to the Debretziner Rav, Rav Moshe Stern ztzl are you allowed to take the newspaper The Forverts written with hebrew letters in yiddish to the bathroom? He answered the question is are you allowed to remove it?

    #1565599

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    This conversation reminds me of the story of Reb Boruch Ber who marveled at the “heilige kurkevan” when he encountered one after spending so much time learning tOrah about it.
    And you can’t accuse him of being a chassid.

    I don’t think he meant that gizzards need genizah. IT is a sense of appreciation, if he can have it for abird’s innards because of sugyos and halacha involved. Al achas Kama vekama for the very language used to espouse said Torah.

    (Incidentally I think Heilige Kurkevan is a fantastic user name,)

    #1565595

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    don’t tell me what I’m going to say, as it is easy to prove you wrong again by not saying it.

    No, I am showing you that your statement “nor are hats of any kind [holy]” is demonstrably false. Thus callign into question your expertise in analyzing Holiness and certainly calling into question your ability t olabel others “an ignoramus of unbelievable proportion who neither comprehends kedusha”

    Some hats are in fact holy. That does not make all hats or even all such hats holy. I’m not quite sure how you came to that wrong conclusion

    #1565728

    The glorious greenhouse for steamy fiery greatness over the past few hundred years was NE Europe.

    Rav Shach would instruct Sephardi talmidim to acquire Yiddish
    as there are some things which cannot be expressed in any other language

    #1566655

    Joseph
    Participant

    I’ve met quite a few Sephardim that have a better than casual knowledge of Yiddish.

    #1566635

    nifrid
    Participant

    holy is “kadosh”, which means separated [from the mundane], the whole purpose of the “creation” of yidish is so the yiden will have a “mundane” language to speak while doing “mundane” things, similar as to why the scrip letters of the alef beis were made, bemaileh as for “holieness” yidish wouldnt be “kadosh u’muvdal”.
    never the less yidish does have a maala over other languages, based on this itself that so many jews in general and gedolei yisroel bifrat, spoke it and used it to teach torah, [the baal shem tov would bedavka say divrei torah in yidish, so the torah will elevate also the mundane languages, so yidish was a intermedeate language, similar to aramaic], also this itself that behashgacha pratis davka this language is called by all jew etc. yidish is a sign of a certain maalah that yidish has [even over other jewish languages], [see lekutai sichos volume 21 p. 447, for more explanation]

    #1566679

    unommin
    Participant

    Those of the old “yiddish theatre” clan would find it amusing… in fact would be joking about… Yiddish being “holy”. Those holocaust survivors (e.g. the Pruzhiner) were all firmly yiddish speakers many of whom were (forgive me) anything but ‘holy’.

    I guess it all depends on your definition or perspective. After all, holy or not, what difference at this point, does it make?

    #1566945

    Sorry unommin,
    The Theater types felt the weight of Yiddish weighing upon them
    So it was a means and purpose of escapism.and liberation ( or libertinism) They were all big leitzonim because of this

    #1568178

    MasmidInTraining
    Participant

    Does anyone know what Rav Shach’s position was on Yiddish?

    #1568837

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rav Shach was a strong proponent of Yiddish. He told the American yeshivos to learn in Yiddish.

    #1568831

    Avi K
    Participant

    Singer said that the wives of all the Yiddish writers in Poland spoke to their families in Polish.

    #1687735

    “Although I’m a Sephardi, I love Yiddish! It’s a soul language that basically defies all principles of what an official language should be. It’s musical and can convey feelings no other language can. I remember that the Roshei Yeshiva called me Lapes Cardeizei, because Lithuanian Jews can’t pronounce

    #1687783

    There is only one Loshon HaKodesh and that is …(drum roll)…Loshon Hakodesh!

    Everything else is Loshon CHOL.

    #1687794

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Rabbi dovid choen has an excellent book “Hasafa Hakedosha” (“The holy Language”)
    On Yiddish expressions

    #1687805

    samthenylic
    Participant

    In Europe, many Catholic galachim wear “flache biber hitten” like many Hungariah (Satmar, Pope, Spink) wear. Also, don’t forget that today’s Chasidishe Shabbos L’vush was worn by Polish nobility.

    #1688161

    Mammele
    Participant

    Sam: and the Pope wears a Yarmulke.

    I think you guys should stop harping about this, whether it’s true or not. At this point it’s irrelevant and no one confuses Chasidim with Polish nobility.

    #1688168

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I think you guys should stop harping about this, whether it’s true or not. At this point it’s irrelevant and no one confuses Chasidim with Polish nobility.

    No they confuse them with Amish instead

    #1688174

    samthenylic
    Participant

    One of the Wysnicer Rebbes(I think the Ahavas Yisroel) said: “You can speal loshon hakodesh in ANY language if you speah torah & mizvos. If you speak bad things in Hebrew, it is NOT loshon hakodesh.”

    #1688189

    Azoiy
    Participant

    Yes. The language that most of Klal Yisroel spoke in is holy. The Tzene Rena was written in Yiddish and is holy. The Imre Emes zt”l used to quote from there. Our babbes and Yiddishe mamas read it every Shabbos. The Mayona shel Torah was written in Yiddish.
    Rav Aharon Kotler zt”l was at a meeting of a girls school discussing whether to learn Chumash in Yiddish and Rav Aharon was emphatic that they should. When asked by Board members if Yiddish has kedusha, he answered “Yiddish is not a Loshon kodesh but it is a Loshon of Kedoshim (the previous generations) and we must continue the kesher to those generations “.

    #1688313

    Avi K
    Participant

    Yiddish is the language of the harshest exile in our history and a dialect of the language of Amalek. It is also the language pushed by the Bundists, who held Tisha b’Av parties and stood in front of shuls on Yom Kippur eating ham sandwiches. When the Bolsheviks came to power they banned our national language Hebrew, which unites all of Klal Yisrael, and pushed Yiddish. It is long past time that it was relegated to anthropologists.

    #1688513

    Mammele
    Participant

    AviK: you sound like a broken tape recorder.

    It’s about time you let it go. How about you use your Free Market economic theories here?

    #1689224

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    Is Yiddish holy? A most ridiculous topic not worthy of comment by a Talmidchochom

    #1689245

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    It’s about time you let it go. How about you use your Free Market economic theories here?

    If you are going to use free market economies, then Yiddish loses. More jews speak English or Hebrew than Yiddish and before you even bring up Frie jews, Sephardim have a say in the matter and they speak english or Hebrew today.

    I have also heard stories that my Alter Bubbies and Zadies spoke either Ukranian or Polish (The ones who told me the story just called it Goyish and I dont think they knew which one it was)

    #1689287

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If you are going to use free market economies, then Yiddish loses.

    You need to look outside of your own daled amos.

    There’s an entire world out there.

    Yiddish is a thriving language.

    #1689303

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “It is long past time that it was relegated to anthropologists.”

    People have been saying that for centuries.
    Yiddish has outlasted them all, and will outlast you too.
    sorry if you find this disappointing

    #1689355

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Is Yiddish holy? A most ridiculous topic not worthy of comment by a Talmidchochom ”

    Lol!
    this is your 4th comment in this thread

    #1689352

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I never said yiddish is dying. I am well aware where it is spoken. However I do frequent Lakewood and am actually there quite often. People there do not usually speak it. I know its spoken in Chassidic Communities.

    The only time Ive ever heard Yiddish spoken in lakewood is when the R’Y is around

    #1689397

    Mammele
    Participant

    ZDad: I wasn’t comparing numbers, communities, or history here. My response was to AviK who wants to kill Yiddish because he (to put it mildly) doesn’t like it. Yes it’s a niche market, but said market is growing in number Ka”h. It’s not about winning or losing, but letting families choose their own course.

    #1689444

    Avi K
    Participant

    Mammele,
    1. Tape recorder? You really are living in the past.
    2. On the contrary, the niche is getting smaller. I once saw a Russian immigrant try to speak it with a Chareidi. The latter could barely get along and was clearly uncomfortable.

    #1689467

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The truth of the matter is, I mostly understand it , if Yiddish is spoken slowly, I know people who speak the alter heim yiddish and I know people who speak Charedi yiddish. It is not the same yiddish. Charedi Yiddish is much easier to understand as its more of a hodgepodge of Yinglish

    #1689478

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    The Mishna Brura declared Yiddish a lashon chol. Psak. End of discussion.

    #1689481

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    Ubiquitin, Really? I was not aware of so many previous posts.

    Over how long a period of time?

    Anyway, that you went and counted all my posts demonstrates that you need to get a life. I cannot imagine a productive person doing nothing this afternoon but counting my posts on this topic. Absolutely mind boggling.

    I know I’m going out on a limb here but I doubt it took him the afternoon to count to 4

    #1689485

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Yiddish is holy to us who are fortunate to understand or speak this beautiful shprach of the g’dolim. It is torturous for those of you who don’t.
    zahavasdad, in all likelihood, your Zadie did not converse in Polish.

    #1689487

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Over how long a period of time?”

    the first 3 where over a day and a half or so 7/23-24

    The 4th (and 5th) were today

    “I cannot imagine a productive person doing nothing this afternoon ”

    That was my morning activity, I spent this afternoon counting your 5th one, and trying to figure out the time span

    #1689535

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    It wasnt my Zadie, It was an Alter Zadie whom I never met. My grandmother told me they used to speak “Goyish” so they wouldnt understand. She just didnt know what Goyish was. They were from what is today Ukraine, but was Poland after World War 1 , so its really hard to know if it was Polish or Ukranian (Jews did speak those languages)

    #1689536

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    Ubiquity,

    I feel sorry for you. Honestly.

    #1689541

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    LerntminTayrah,

    I believe what you are saying. Is there a Mareh mokom to this that you earlier stated?

    #1689580

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    talmud

    “I feel sorry for you. Honestly.”

    don’t. I’m not the one who can’t remember having commented on a thread a few months ago.
    I’m also not the one who thinks it takes all afternoon to count to 4.

    (BTW the thread “not worthy of comment by a Talmidchochom” now has 7 )

    #1689595

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    could it make sense that its not kadosh but, on the other hand its a language that Jews used, to separate themselves from the non-jews when speaking regularly so as not to use lashon hakodesh for mundane purposes

    Even though there are non-jews that speak it they learnt it from us just like some of them off to speak lashon hakodesh

    On a side note anyone know the history of yiddish?

    Heads up I didnt look past this page to know how many times ppl posted 🙂 or what they posted so if its a repeat sorry

    #1689627

    Joseph
    Participant

    Yiddish is of course holier than English, Ivrit and Farsi but, obviously, Loshon Kodesh is holier than Yiddish.

    Due to the kedusha of Loshon Kodesh, it shouldn’t and mustn’t be used as an everyday chol language. Which is why Yidden have Yiddish. And Loshon Kodesh for Torah.

    #1689678

    Avi K
    Participant

    Lashon haKodesh was the spoken language of Am Yisrael until the churban Bayit Rishon. In fact, only the aristocracy even understood Aramaic (Yeshayahu 36:11). Of course, one’s everyday language should also be kadosh. In general our job is to make the chol kadosh. This is central to Rav Kook’s view of the difference between the Torah of Eretz Yisrael and the torah of galut.

    As for Yiddish being a means of separation from the others, in fact, it is a creole German. Speaking Yiddish in Switzerland, where they are mutually intelligible (I have this on the authority of the wife of a friend who is from Switzerland and was demonstrated in “Pastry, Pain and Politics'”) and even in Czechoslovakia and Poland, where german was widely spoken, simply does not achieve this.

    #1689708

    Joseph
    Participant

    Ivrit is Creole Hebrew.

    #1689752

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Avi
    why is “mutually intelligible” a contradiction to “separation “?
    And as you may know, some geographers are saying that Europe is bigger than Switzerland, so even if Yiddish is “mutually intelligible” in Switzerland. It obviously isnt (and wasn’t) in the rest of Europe including Czechoslovakia and Poland.
    I dont want to argue with the authority of your esteemed friend’s wife., and I havent spoke to many Swiss,, so it is possible that in some areas of Switzerland they do speek a more “yidishized” German, but I have spoken to several Germans and while they marveled and the similarity of some words they did not understand yiddish, and the too are not “mutually intelligible”

    #1689758

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Im not sure the jews ever spoke Loshon Kodesh. During Baying Sheni I think the vernacular was Aramaic

    #1689768

    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    Avi K: even “holy”(!) Ivrit nowadays is a hodge-podge tongue. containing a significant number of words taken from English, Russian, and Arabic, among others. You are surely familiar with the infamous “back-axle kidmit” For the uninitiated, this IS a phrase used today in Israel that refers to a vehicles’ front wheel axle….
    All languages today are “creole,” including English and Ivrit.

    #1689839

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    True but Have you ever tried speaking yiddish to a German?
    I’ve been to Germany and tried it, one of two things always happened either they replied in English or they ignored us – not because we spoke a bad yiddish or looked like tourists.

    Germans can see from a mile away that your not speaking German they know the difference between yiddish and german.

    Even if it’s Creole German it’s still has distinct differences, no?

    #1690772

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    My source is mishna brura 307.5 which says to say shabbas shalom, “or as we say in mundane language” (ie yiddish, the language he spoke) Shabsa Tava (“gut shabbes”)

    So he spoke yidisha and called it a lashon chol. Others referred to it as lashon ashkenaz, the Germanic tongue. Teitch literally means deitch, the Germanic language.

    #1690798

    Avi K
    Participant

    Ubiquitin and Lechaim, the Germans say the same things about Swiss German. and the Bavarians claim that they speak a different language than the Prussians.

    AY, the Shela haKadosh brought down in Margoliot haYam says about “tot” and “fot” being from other languages (Sanhedrin 4b) that some words were lost from Lashon haKodesh and preserved in other languages. In any case, Israelis will readily tell you that these words are not Hebrew and even supply the official Hebrew word.

    #1690807

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Avi
    “the Germans say the same things about Swiss German”
    Of course they would. I’m not sure what you are trying to say.

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