March 7, 2019 12:05 pm at 12:05 pm #1690847
Yiddish is holy by virtue of it being the primary and exclusive language of Jews for over a thousand years. Even if it is our chol language.
Loshon Kodesh is holier by virtue of it being the language of the Torah, even if not our spoken language. A language reserved for use only of kedusha.March 7, 2019 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #1691047
Very well put.
I don’t understand how this is a argument .
As I explained in this post :https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/is-yiddish-holy-2/page/4/#post-1562938
Though Joseph’s post is shorter and sweeter.March 7, 2019 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #1691060
Ubiquitin, there really is no single German language but a cluster of similar dialects. Some, such as Bavarian and the North German dialects are quite different. Yiddish is one of them. It is no more a separate language than Yeshivish.March 7, 2019 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #1691097
“Yiddish is one of them. It is no more a separate language than Yeshivish.”
1) I am familiar with all four, and let me assure you that English is closer to yeshivish than Yiddish is to German. (are you really arguing this point?)
2) yiddish is recognized as a language by many bodies, it has a regulating agency It is a bit absurd to try to argue it isnt a language
3) Even if it isnt an “official” language (whatever that means) I still don’t understand your point .March 7, 2019 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #1691128
Having a regulating agency actually makes it less of a language. I hate French people.March 7, 2019 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #1691292
“Yiddish is holy by virtue of it being the primary and exclusive language of Jews for over a thousand years. Even if it is our chol language.”
Mishna brura called it secular. That means not holy. 1. Mima nafshach you’re upgeshlugged.
2. Mishna brura clearly isn’t saying that so unless you feel you’re a bar plugta you have no mekor.March 8, 2019 1:05 am at 1:05 am #1691461
1. The Yiddish linguist Max Weinreich said that a language is a dialect with an army and navy.
2. In Europe it was called Jargon.
3. Rabbanim wrote to each other in Hebrew interspersed with Aramaic. It was a sign of a ben Torah that he also wrote his business correspondence in Hebrew. This was borne out by discoveries in the Cairo Geniza (BTW, so far no Yiddish documents have been found there).March 8, 2019 7:48 am at 7:48 am #1691514
Most languages have a regulating body except for one (English) , Mostly because languages are fluid and new words come in and old words go out. Because most of the innovations come from Anglo countries (especially the US) most new words come from english. People will just use the english word and over time the language becomes english.
If you listen to YIVO Yiddish and Chassidic yiddish you will easily notice this, YIVO Yiddish sounds like a distinct language, Chassidic yiddish is more yinglish and over time it will become more and more english. The YIVO at least tried to make yiddish distinct (but is failing because nobody speaks yivo yiddish, they only speak chassidic yiddish)March 8, 2019 7:50 am at 7:50 am #1691510
“said that a language is a dialect with an army and navy.”
sooooooo… theyre not the same.
and again are you trying to convey some sort of point?
” In Europe it was called Jargon.”
and again are you trying to convey some sort of point?
“Rabbanim wrote to each other in Hebrew interspersed with Aramaic”
Are you starting a new thread?
“It was a sign of a ben Torah that he also wrote his business correspondence in Hebrew.”
Interesting, not sure he relevence.
and also source please?
You’ve really lost me I have no idea what you are trying to convey.
did you read Joseph”s comment? OR just copied it and repeated yourself?March 8, 2019 11:39 am at 11:39 am #1691543
ZD: I don’t think you know Chasidic Yiddishk too well if you think it’s anything like Yinglish. Chasidic Yiddish is very much the same as prewar European Yiddish spoken in Chareidi Europe.
You’d have a slightly better argument claiming that Litvish Yiddish today, in some circles, is a bit more like Yinglish. But even then that would only apply outside Eretz Yisroel.March 8, 2019 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #1691576
I saw a youtube interview with some yiddishist who notes how she tried her yiddish in williamsuburg, and was told her Yiddish sounded funny.
She asked for an example of her “funny” yiddish and was told she said “Farmach di fenster” nobody says that we say “farmach di vindeh (window)”
(Although I’m not sure I agree with that example, the overall point holds )March 8, 2019 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #1691654
Fenster is a commonly used word in America among Yiddish speakers. Seems to be a poor example.March 12, 2019 10:53 am at 10:53 am #1693554
Here is the kitzur shulchan aruch talking about the Yiddish sefer tze’ena ure’ena. Notice no love for Yiddish here. It’s just another foreign language.
וְאִם לָאו בַּר הָכִי הוּא יִלְמַד פֵּרוּשׁ אַשְׁכְּנַזִי (לוֹעֲזִי) עַל הַסִּדְרָה, כְּגוֹן סֵפֶר “צְאֶינָה וּרְאֶינָה” וְכַדּוֹמֶה, שֶׁיָּבִין עִנְיַן הַסִּדְרָה.March 12, 2019 12:15 pm at 12:15 pm #1693586
Sounds like a no-brainer to me that yiddish is no different than French.March 12, 2019 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #1693622
Sounds like a no-brainer to me that yiddish is no different than French.
Have you ever heard anyone say, “Pardon my Yiddish”?March 12, 2019 12:57 pm at 12:57 pm #1693643
If Jews are holy then the language they use is holy.March 12, 2019 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #1693663March 12, 2019 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #1693707
Do you all realize that no one here has defined the meaning of “holy”, so everyone here is discussing a different question? From a halchic standpoint, it has been quite obviously shown that Yiddish is a lashon chol with no kedusha. Does Yiddish deserve respect as a time-hallowed, exclusively Jewish language, which can connect Ashkenazi Jews to their European heritage? I think only those with an anti-Yiddish agenda would deny that.March 12, 2019 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #1693776
yep, thats what I said
“Sounds like a no-brainer to me that yiddish is no different than French.”
Ah, but if you did have a brain,…
kidding I already explained why they are different
they are wrong.
“Do you all realize that no one here has defined the meaning of “holy”,”
I defined it .
Though I agree completely with you point , and in fact said the same (though much wordier)March 12, 2019 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #1694762
If Jews using something makes it holy, then a nafka bayis used by Jews is holy.
Again, please quote a source for that other than “only deniers will deny that”. Your insistence doesn’t make it true. You need a source.
I do argue on Yiddish being equivalent to French. Rav Yaakov Emden came out strongly against the learning of French instead of lashon kodesh, saying it leads to bad things. It’s mentioned by the Kav Hayashar with the footnotes saying the source.
Even the Stmar Rebbe only said Yiddish is holy because through yiddish Satmar yidden stay separate from the goyim. The German, Polish, Russian, and Hungarian words certainly aren’t holy.
There is holiness in yiddish based on
1. Loshn koidesh verter in Yiddish
2. Expressions based on Torah, like shep nachas (“scoop nachas”, similiar to hseplefl a scoopiong spoon or ladle ) based on the pasuk in koheles about tov melo kaf nachas , a spoon of nachas is better.
But none of that is intrinsic to Yiddish.March 13, 2019 8:28 am at 8:28 am #1694963
Lernt: Bingo, that’s exactly it. That Yiddish keeps us different and separate from the goyim is the largest factor making the shprach heilig.March 13, 2019 8:29 am at 8:29 am #1694888
Before I get insulted, I see from who it is coming. In your case, I need not worry.March 13, 2019 9:59 am at 9:59 am #1695014
Joseph, a good diyuk! I like it. It almost makes sense.March 13, 2019 10:14 am at 10:14 am #1695027
I’m glad !
“Again, please quote a source for that…”
I saw this online “Even the Stmar Rebbe only said Yiddish is holy because…”
granted its online so we need to take it with a grain of salt, but hopefully you’ll find the source trustworthyMarch 13, 2019 10:52 am at 10:52 am #1695214
So everyone agrees that Yiddish is minei ubei not holy. It’s only holy due to a svara chitzona that can apply to any language, like Judeo-Fez or Ladino or similar. And you can wear a yarmulke and tzitzis and not require Yiddish to be separate.
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