Is Yiddish Holy?

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  • #1690847

    Joseph
    Participant

    Yiddish is holy by virtue of it being the primary and exclusive language of Jews for over a thousand years. Even if it is our chol language.

    Loshon Kodesh is holier by virtue of it being the language of the Torah, even if not our spoken language. A language reserved for use only of kedusha.

    #1691047

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    Very well put.

    I don’t understand how this is a argument .

    As I explained in this post :https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/is-yiddish-holy-2/page/4/#post-1562938

    Though Joseph’s post is shorter and sweeter.

    #1691060

    Avi K
    Participant

    Ubiquitin, there really is no single German language but a cluster of similar dialects. Some, such as Bavarian and the North German dialects are quite different. Yiddish is one of them. It is no more a separate language than Yeshivish.

    #1691097

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Yiddish is one of them. It is no more a separate language than Yeshivish.”

    1) I am familiar with all four, and let me assure you that English is closer to yeshivish than Yiddish is to German. (are you really arguing this point?)
    2) yiddish is recognized as a language by many bodies, it has a regulating agency It is a bit absurd to try to argue it isnt a language
    3) Even if it isnt an “official” language (whatever that means) I still don’t understand your point .

    #1691128

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Having a regulating agency actually makes it less of a language. I hate French people.

    #1691292

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    “Yiddish is holy by virtue of it being the primary and exclusive language of Jews for over a thousand years. Even if it is our chol language.”

    Mishna brura called it secular. That means not holy. 1. Mima nafshach you’re upgeshlugged.
    2. Mishna brura clearly isn’t saying that so unless you feel you’re a bar plugta you have no mekor.

    #1691461

    Avi K
    Participant

    Ubiquitin,
    1. The Yiddish linguist Max Weinreich said that a language is a dialect with an army and navy.
    2. In Europe it was called Jargon.
    3. Rabbanim wrote to each other in Hebrew interspersed with Aramaic. It was a sign of a ben Torah that he also wrote his business correspondence in Hebrew. This was borne out by discoveries in the Cairo Geniza (BTW, so far no Yiddish documents have been found there).

    #1691514

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Most languages have a regulating body except for one (English) , Mostly because languages are fluid and new words come in and old words go out. Because most of the innovations come from Anglo countries (especially the US) most new words come from english. People will just use the english word and over time the language becomes english.

    If you listen to YIVO Yiddish and Chassidic yiddish you will easily notice this, YIVO Yiddish sounds like a distinct language, Chassidic yiddish is more yinglish and over time it will become more and more english. The YIVO at least tried to make yiddish distinct (but is failing because nobody speaks yivo yiddish, they only speak chassidic yiddish)

    #1691510

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Avi
    “said that a language is a dialect with an army and navy.”

    sooooooo… theyre not the same.
    and again are you trying to convey some sort of point?

    ” In Europe it was called Jargon.”
    what was?
    and again are you trying to convey some sort of point?

    “Rabbanim wrote to each other in Hebrew interspersed with Aramaic”
    Are you starting a new thread?

    “It was a sign of a ben Torah that he also wrote his business correspondence in Hebrew.”
    Interesting, not sure he relevence.
    and also source please?

    You’ve really lost me I have no idea what you are trying to convey.

    Learnin,
    did you read Joseph”s comment? OR just copied it and repeated yourself?

    #1691543

    Joseph
    Participant

    ZD: I don’t think you know Chasidic Yiddishk too well if you think it’s anything like Yinglish. Chasidic Yiddish is very much the same as prewar European Yiddish spoken in Chareidi Europe.

    You’d have a slightly better argument claiming that Litvish Yiddish today, in some circles, is a bit more like Yinglish. But even then that would only apply outside Eretz Yisroel.

    #1691576

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    ZD
    true
    I saw a youtube interview with some yiddishist who notes how she tried her yiddish in williamsuburg, and was told her Yiddish sounded funny.
    She asked for an example of her “funny” yiddish and was told she said “Farmach di fenster” nobody says that we say “farmach di vindeh (window)”

    (Although I’m not sure I agree with that example, the overall point holds )

    #1691654

    Joseph
    Participant

    Fenster is a commonly used word in America among Yiddish speakers. Seems to be a poor example.

    #1693554

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Here is the kitzur shulchan aruch talking about the Yiddish sefer tze’ena ure’ena. Notice no love for Yiddish here. It’s just another foreign language.

    וְאִם לָאו בַּר הָכִי הוּא יִלְמַד פֵּרוּשׁ אַשְׁכְּנַזִי (לוֹעֲזִי) עַל הַסִּדְרָה, כְּגוֹן סֵפֶר “צְאֶינָה וּרְאֶינָה” וְכַדּוֹמֶה, שֶׁיָּבִין עִנְיַן הַסִּדְרָה.

    #1693586

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    Sounds like a no-brainer to me that yiddish is no different than French.

    #1693622

    Meno
    Participant

    Sounds like a no-brainer to me that yiddish is no different than French.

    Have you ever heard anyone say, “Pardon my Yiddish”?

    #1693643

    laughing
    Participant

    If Jews are holy then the language they use is holy.

    #1693663

    @laughing Jews in Eretz Yisroel use ivrit. Tell satmar that its holy.

    #1693707

    tiawd
    Participant

    Do you all realize that no one here has defined the meaning of “holy”, so everyone here is discussing a different question? From a halchic standpoint, it has been quite obviously shown that Yiddish is a lashon chol with no kedusha. Does Yiddish deserve respect as a time-hallowed, exclusively Jewish language, which can connect Ashkenazi Jews to their European heritage? I think only those with an anti-Yiddish agenda would deny that.

    #1693776

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph
    yep, thats what I said

    talmidchochom
    “Sounds like a no-brainer to me that yiddish is no different than French.”

    Ah, but if you did have a brain,…
    kidding I already explained why they are different

    Captain
    they are wrong.

    tiawd
    “Do you all realize that no one here has defined the meaning of “holy”,”
    I defined it .
    Though I agree completely with you point , and in fact said the same (though much wordier)

    #1694762

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    If Jews using something makes it holy, then a nafka bayis used by Jews is holy.

    Again, please quote a source for that other than “only deniers will deny that”. Your insistence doesn’t make it true. You need a source.

    I do argue on Yiddish being equivalent to French. Rav Yaakov Emden came out strongly against the learning of French instead of lashon kodesh, saying it leads to bad things. It’s mentioned by the Kav Hayashar with the footnotes saying the source.

    Even the Stmar Rebbe only said Yiddish is holy because through yiddish Satmar yidden stay separate from the goyim. The German, Polish, Russian, and Hungarian words certainly aren’t holy.

    There is holiness in yiddish based on
    1. Loshn koidesh verter in Yiddish
    2. Expressions based on Torah, like shep nachas (“scoop nachas”, similiar to hseplefl a scoopiong spoon or ladle ) based on the pasuk in koheles about tov melo kaf nachas , a spoon of nachas is better.

    But none of that is intrinsic to Yiddish.

    #1694963

    Joseph
    Participant

    Lernt: Bingo, that’s exactly it. That Yiddish keeps us different and separate from the goyim is the largest factor making the shprach heilig.

    #1694888

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    Ubiquitin,

    Before I get insulted, I see from who it is coming. In your case, I need not worry.

    #1695014

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    Joseph, a good diyuk! I like it. It almost makes sense.

    #1695027

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    TC
    I’m glad !

    Lernt
    “Again, please quote a source for that…”

    Found one!

    I saw this online “Even the Stmar Rebbe only said Yiddish is holy because…”
    granted its online so we need to take it with a grain of salt, but hopefully you’ll find the source trustworthy

    #1695214

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    So everyone agrees that Yiddish is minei ubei not holy. It’s only holy due to a svara chitzona that can apply to any language, like Judeo-Fez or Ladino or similar. And you can wear a yarmulke and tzitzis and not require Yiddish to be separate.

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