Is Yiddish Holy?

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  • #1735871

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    Does Rav Dovid Cohen stipulate why yiddish is holy?

    #1735904

    Joseph
    Participant

    TC: Yes, he has a whole sefer explaining why.

    #1735993

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq
    And if there is a value to holding on to an old language simply because that’s how we conversed for say a thousand years, why did we stop Aramaic?
    Ladino?
    (Spanish?)

    May 29, 2019 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm#1735500REPLY
    ubiquitinParticipant
    Joseph

    IS YIDDISH HOLY?

    “Wasn’t the haskalah conducted in Yiddish? …Yiddish theater?”

    Those aren’t Avoda zara. A practice taken up for Avoda zara like riasing hands during davening, korban on bama becomes assur that is why trees were stopped .

    “why did we stop Aramaic?”

    We didn’t stop it , it is still used for much of davening . with time it fell into disuse I don’t think there was an effort to stop it.

    The above is your post
    You were responding to my question as to why we stopped using Aramaic.
    You wrote
    “We didn’t stop it , it is still used for much of davening . with time it fell into disuse I don’t think there was an effort to stop it.”
    Not sure why you would deny it

    As to more gathering
    The question is
    Is Yiddish holy

    Not is tefillah holy
    Sure tefillah is holy but that proves nothing about the holiness of Yiddish
    The discussion is about Yiddish in general
    Same answer to your other question, sure nobody would change the language of a tefillah from a.k.h. but that doesn’t make Aramaic holy. Again it is the tefillah that is holy.

    I didnt mention the Maharil Diskin, but because your asking no why would I think that?
    True you didn’t mention him but I was “gathering “more information about your position.
    Being as the story claims he wouldn’t talk, at least not to an important person, (and hashem is certainly as important) in the foul language of Hebrew, and being as you In your line of questioning seem to equate casual conversation with tefillah, it should follow that he would not talk to hashem using that foul language called Hebrew

    (I don’t believe the story,
    I believe all parts of tefillah are holy independently of which language they are in,
    So I am not bothered by this question.)

    #1736029

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    KY

    “We didn’t stop it , it is still used for much of davening . with time it fell into disuse I don’t think there was an effort to stop it”

    My sincerest apologies that was terribly worded, (more so that most of my posts) .
    You said ““why did we stop Aramaic?” To which I was responding that , we didint “stop” it, we still use it . “it” being Aramaic . ie nobody got up and said ok Aramaic is creole Lashon Kodesh lets stop speaking it. IT fell into dissue. when and why? I dont know (though if you have sources Id love to learn more) .

    YOU then said “with time it fell into disuse I don’t think there was an effort to stop it.”
    Which I understood as it = falling into disuse, tie hat there was no effort to keep Aramaic alive

    Mea culpa, I hope this explanation is clearer and we can be friedns again.

    “but that doesn’t make Aramaic holy”

    So that is where we differ, we may be defining “holy” differently . See joseph’s excellent concise explanation at the top of page 6, and my wordier one linked to right after his.

    “nobody would change the language of a tefillah from a.k.h. but that doesn’t make Aramaic holy.”
    So why not change it?

    “True you didn’t mention him but I was “gathering “more information about your position.”
    Great that is encouraged! Though I’m not sure why you would think I thought otherwise. I have no problem speaking to people in Hebrew or English, if the Mahral diskin had a problem with it, yo u have to ask HIM (or whoever brought that story) if he davened in Hebrew

    “being as you In your line of questioning seem to equate casual conversation with tefillah,”
    I am not sure where you got that strange equivalence

    #1736077

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Debretziner Rav ztz’l was asked, are you allowed to take to the bathroom the פארווערטס, Forward, a yiddish newspaper? He answered, the question is if you are allowed to take it out?

    #1736051

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    Who can prove that ,as one said earlier,
    Yiddish is over one thousand years old.

    #1736116

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq
    I don’t understand your last post
    But we can still be friends

    #1736123

    klugeryid
    Participant

    I can prove it.
    There were Jews a thousand years ago
    Jews talk Yiddish because it’s holy
    Ergo
    Jews were speaking Yiddish a thousand years ago
    Simple

    #1736213

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    Sorry Klugeryid,
    Does not pass the logic test.

    #1736231

    klugeryid
    Participant

    But maybe it proved Poe”s law?

    #1736244

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    KY
    Poe’s law is already established law it doesn’t need any more proof.
    “I don’t understand your last post”
    Thats ok, your a bit late to this party and clearly havent read through the wwhole thing (not that I blame you) as you are repeating a lot of silly points that have been addressed already.
    I will repost the main point from my last post, which points you in the direction of, what I think out point of disagreement is. :

    “but that doesn’t make Aramaic holy”
    So that is where we differ, we may be defining “holy” differently . See joseph’s excellent concise explanation at the top of page 6, and my wordier one linked to right after his.

    TC
    see Jacobs, Neil G. (2005). Yiddish: a Linguistic Introduction. Cambridge University Press. p. 2. who says it is 900-1100 years old
    It certainly was in use in the 13th century (not quite 1000 years ago but close) as the oldest yiddish inscription appears in the Worm’s Machzor : ““Gut taq im betage se vaer dis mahsor in beith hakenseth trage,””

    (As an aside 13th century Yiddish similar to today’s Yiddish, and the above sentence is quite intelligible if you speak yiddish, compare to 13th century English (ie middle English) eg here is a line from “The Owl and the nightingale” “Þe bloſtme. gynneþ ſpringe & ſpred Boþe in treo & ek in mede. which apparently translates to The blossoms quickly spring and swellon every tree and in the dell:)

    #1736337

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    They were Jews a thousand years ago
    Jews speak holy languages
    Yiddish is holy
    Ergo
    Jews spoke Yiddish a thousand years ago

    #1736359

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    This continuing back and forth about holiness of Yiddish is insulting and degrading to the concept of Kedusha (holiness) . We forgot how the Torah and Shas define what it means to be holy. Pause from this ridiculous discussion, grab a Sefer or two, see what Kedusha represents and then return here and see if you don’t have a more intelligent insight as to whether Yiddish is holy.

    #1736379

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Done
    It’s not holy

    #1736400

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    TC

    I took your advice, Bereishis Rabbah 74:14
    וַיִּקְרָא לוֹ לָבָן יְגַר שָׂהֲדוּתָא , אָמַר רַבִּי שְׁמוּאֵל בַּר נַחְמָן אַל יְהֵא לָשׁוֹן פַּרְסִי הַזֶּה קַל בְּעֵינֶיךָ, שֶׁבַּתּוֹרָה בַּנְּבִיאִים בַּכְּתוּבִים מָצִינוּ שֶׁהַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא חוֹלֵק לוֹ כָּבוֹד

    A poster here said ” but that doesn’t make Aramaic holy”
    Aramaic is in fact holy (again, as mentioned several times in this thread, I am not clear as to what “holy ” means, but clearly There is something special? sacred? important? holy? about Aramaic.) As the medrash warns, don’t take it lightly .

    “This continuing back and forth about holiness of Yiddish is insulting and degrading to the concept of Kedusha (holiness) ”

    I agree, it is also insulting and degrading to the holiness of Yiddish,
    And this discussion is getting repetitive. with absolutely nothing constructive being added at this point,

    This is pretty clear, josph put it very succinctly, I elaborated perhaps to a fault,
    At this point, Kol hamosif goreah, if there is any particular point you have trouble with I’d be happy to try to clarify
    but repeating “Done It is holy” “no its not” “Yes it is” Is not my style

    #1736415

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    I don’t get what the question is even? Yiddish is a relatively new (1000 years) Germanic language. Why would ANYONE think it’s holy? I am not arguing its importance in Jewish culture and history, but holiness?

    #1736413

    yehoshuaahron
    Participant

    The Lubavitcher Rebbe said that although Yiddish originally was spoken to refrain from speaking Lashon Kodesh, since it was used for Torah study and mitzvah observance for over a thousand years it gave it a measure of sanctity beyond other non-Hebrew languages,9 similar to the holiness conferred to a physical object used for a mitzvah.10

    9. This is similar to what we find in the Talmud as well as in halachah, that certain languages such as Aramaic and ancient Greek have a certain level of holiness above the average language. See Jerusalem Talmud, Megillah 1:9, and Babylonian Talmud, Megillah 8b.

    10. Additionally, by using the language of Yiddish for Torah and spiritual purposes, the rabbis were able to spiritually elevate the language. See Likkutei Sichot, vol. 21, p. 448; Sefer ha-Sichot 5748, vol. 2, Vayeishev, sec. 5.

    #1736430

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq
    It seems to be 74:12 not 74:14
    And yes that would seem to be a good proof.
    For Aramaic.
    Not for Yiddish
    Which brings back my earlier question.
    Why is there no push for Aramaic
    Like oh I don’t know, maybe we should dig up and old sefer that I have in my house when teaching kids Chumash. Instead of translating it into Yiddish, why don’t we translate it into Aramaic.
    I’d be willing to provide the translation from this old sefer .
    For free.
    It’s very accurate Aramaic.
    It’s called אונקלוס.
    But no. Let’s leave that out and teach in holy Yiddish.

    And to yehoshuaaron footnote 10
    If so, by now English is holy too.
    And so are quite a number of other languages. So Yiddish may be holy, but it’s not uniquely special.

    #1736452

    belgiumbull
    Participant

    as a true chassid the only holy language is probably loshon hakodesh (not Hebrew)
    and every language has curse words even loshon hakodesh even G-D curses sometimes
    yours truelly
    belgianbull

    #1736453

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    YO
    “I am not arguing its importance in Jewish culture and history, but holiness”

    Hainu hach (as I clarified several times.)
    Now you get it.

    KY
    “Why is there no push for Aramaic”
    Again, I don’t know.

    “I’d be willing to provide the translation from this old sefer . For free. It’s very accurate Aramaic. “It’s called אונקלוס.”

    Sooooo, this may surprise you, but to this very day many Orthodox Jews recite this Aramaic translation weekly!

    #1736463

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq
    No it doesn’t surprise me at all.
    I didn’t say adults should learn שנים מקרא ואחד תרגום.
    Your response is not really responding to my point.
    I said instead of teaching five or six year olds their Chumash into Yiddish, why don’t we use אונקלוס and teach it in Aramaic.
    As you so eloquently showed, it has the benefit of having some kind of chashivus.
    (BTW the medrash doesn’t say it’s inclusion in the Torah makes it holy, it says the fact that it is there proves that it is)

    #1736529

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    Don’t understand at all why in 21st century שנים מקרא ואחד תרגום is with Onkelos rather than רש״י.
    At the end of the day, what assists a person in understanding a posuk Chumash? A rashi or an Onkelos?

    #1736535

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “I said instead of teaching five or six year olds their Chumash into Yiddish, why don’t we use אונקלוס and teach it in Aramaic.”

    Ah, so this question (unlike your other one) I DO know the answer to: ווייל אזוי האט מען געפירט אין די היים

    #1736536

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Look in the משנה ברורה I believe he addresses that point
    There are many פוסקים who agree
    There are Shitos that you can use English too
    Because the point is for everyone in כלל ישראל to know Chumash!!!
    Not some dubious idea of preserving / utilizing a language that may or may not be “holy ”
    The reason for doing it in אונקלוס (as well if necessary) is because there is a tremendous amount of gems in there that one would not get from just translating Chumash.
    Most of them are brought out in rashi.

    #1736572

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Talmidchochom, Klugeryid, About Rashi see SA O’CH 285,2

    #1736649

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    Laskern,

    You are an anomaly to this discussion thread. You cite Mareh Mekomos.
    Tizku L’mitzvos.

    #1736697

    klugeryid
    Participant

    It’s not an anomaly
    It’s just the first time something real was brought up
    It’s hard to find serious m. M. For something completely made up. Like the holiness of a man made language.
    Before ubiq jumps on me from Aramaic
    The gemora says that תרגום אונקלוס was given at Sinai.
    So it’s not man made

    #1736706

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    “Don’t understand at all why in 21st century שנים מקרא ואחד תרגום is with Onkelos rather than רש״י.”

    Bc Gemara says clearly Chayav Adam Lehashlim parshiyotav Im hatzibur 2 mikra ve echad targum.

    But people should ideally try and do both. Rashi and Onkelos

    #1736727

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    Yabia,

    As you travel through all 2700+ blatt Gemara, do we in 2019 follow everything stated in Shas?

    #1736785

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    KY

    “Like the holiness of a man made language.”

    Whoa, forget the less exciting question from Aramaic., there is a much more interesting chidush here. Namely that something man-made cant have kedusha!

    wow!
    and I have a marei makom for it: Its a beferish coffee room post.

    #1736792

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Talmidchochom, Look at the benefit of it, gaining long life Brochos 8:2. You can speed up rhe process by doing a parsha (peh or samech) at a time.

    #1736793

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Also, by reading the targum in aramaic helps in learning gemora .

    #1736873

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq
    Perhaps
    Or maybe I just meant
    The supposed holiness of Yiddish which is Man made and would need some sort of mechanism to infuse it with holiness
    As opposed to something created by hashem which can be intrinsically holy

    #1737306

    TC[sic]

    As you travel through all 2700+ blatt Gemara, do we in 2019 follow everything stated in Shas?

    We do .
    Are you implying except insofar when the leading commentaries explicitly tell us otherwise, that we don’t?!

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