Is Zionism the Yetzer Hora?
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- This topic has 296 replies, 39 voices, and was last updated 6 years, 11 months ago by Health.
January 11, 2016 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #617037MameshhTov98Member
Here’s the thing – I say ‘Vezechezena ain’einu l’shouvecha l’tziyon b’rachamim’ 3 times a day. Yet, all I’ve been told since I was a mere Torah Tot is that, just as the Satmar Rebbe said, ‘Zionism was a cause of the Holocaust’. Ozer li?January 11, 2016 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #1148441☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
The zionists corrupted the term. That’s not the Satmer Rebbe’s fault.
He also davened at least three times a day.January 11, 2016 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #1148442
Here we go again……Zionism is evil,Zionism is the greatest sin, Zionism is the creation of the “soton”….blah,blah,blah…..Mamesh- don’t get your mind corrupted by others..think for yourself…January 11, 2016 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #1148443☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Zionism is evil,Zionism is the greatest sin, Zionism is the creation of the “soton”.
You’ve finally realized!January 11, 2016 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #1148444
DaasYochid: Sure….and,psst, I have a great bridge to sell you…cheap..don’t tell anyone, it is a special deal, just fro you!January 11, 2016 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #1148445
Mamesh -“don’t get your mind corrupted by others..think for yourself”
And read the posts about Zionist’s torture – how they blamed & tortured Frum Jews!January 11, 2016 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #1148446
health: any real basis for that accusation?January 11, 2016 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #1148447MameshhTov98Member
But Health – is it perhaps possible to be a ‘Religious Zionist’?January 11, 2016 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #1148448
whatever you say about zionism or not, the israeli government are giving multi millions of sheklels at the moment to the kollel and a lot of kollel students are getting loads of tax breaks, if not for that the kollel infrastructure would have collapsed, so there is a huge hakarat hatov to the israeli population also for supporting the kollels,
It is hypocritical to call the israels evil and then take sooo much money off them! However Satmar should be respected for not being a hypocrite by refusing to take money off the governement and being totally self sufficient!!! I think all Litvish Kollels and yeshivas should refuse to take any governmental money for there schools or families if they at the same time are calling the Israeli society Evil – it is just purely hypocritical!!!January 11, 2016 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #1148449dbrimParticipant
EVERYONE living in Eretz Yisroel takes from the government – we all rely on the sanitation department, police, security, etc. The government is krum, not zionistic. You, Mamashh, and all those of us who love Eretz Yisroel, who daven for Eretz Yisroel, who are Availei Tzion, who live in Eretz Yirroel, learn Torah here, are true “zionists” – Ki Mitzion Tetzei TotahJanuary 11, 2016 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #1148450gavra_at_workParticipant
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for sure – but dbrim – the charedim are proportionally receiving a huge amount more in comparison to everyone else and on average are paying much less taxes, This means the average secular Jew in Israel i.e. living in Tel Avivc and Haifa – gets a HUGE Zechut for a lot of their tax money going to kollels and indirectly supporting charedi families survive and Yeshivas- they shurely will get credit for that whether or not it is leshaim shemayim?!January 11, 2016 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #1148452
“The government is krum, not zionistic.”
There are very few old time Zionists around, maybe Shimon Peres. The rest are just modern secularists, without any real ideology.January 11, 2016 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #1148453Daniell11Member
Mamash are you Zionist??January 11, 2016 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #1148454
if the charedim think they are ‘KRUM’ they shouldnt take the benfits – isnt that hypocritical???? there should be respect for Satmar since they arent hypocrites. you either should have hakarat hatov or be consistent like Satmar!! At least the Zionists are doing a huge mitzvah living in Israel unlike the Charedi Americans living in Chutz Laaretz – so dont speak Lashon Hara on anyone in Israel!!!January 11, 2016 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #1148455Matisyahu91Participant
‘Zionism was a cause of the Holocaust’.
I doubt that.We must stop blaming zionism for this. For more than a 1000 years it always happened in almost every century and country where jews were at the moment. This time jews were all over Europe not just in Spain, Hungary, Poland, Turkey, etc. .The nation was able to take a breath for one century.Just like today. What do you think what will happen to Satmar on the day when America collapses? In all my respect to the Rebbe he left his whole community behind when he fled with the help of Kastner. I really don’t understand that.
In my opinion even if zionism is bad it gives us the oppurtunity to protect ourselves and our families on the land which God gave to us.January 11, 2016 11:39 pm at 11:39 pm #1148456👑RebYidd23Participant
The Holocaust happened because of the actions of the Germans.January 12, 2016 12:49 am at 12:49 am #1148457The QueenParticipant
The Holocaust happened because Hashem in His infinite wisdom willed it.January 12, 2016 2:39 am at 2:39 am #1148458
Mamesh -“But Health – is it perhaps possible to be a ‘Religious Zionist’?”
That’s an old joke! Of course Not! But that’s the way they’re identified.January 12, 2016 2:44 am at 2:44 am #1148459
ROB -“health: any real basis for that accusation?”
I assume so. This comes from the lawyers of the tortured boys.January 12, 2016 3:52 am at 3:52 am #1148460
health:and defense lawyers are pure as the driven snow….and have no ulterior motive…..In truth I have no idea what happened but I sure would not accuse anyone without any concrete proof…January 12, 2016 4:10 am at 4:10 am #1148461catch yourselfParticipant
At most, Zionism is the Yetzer Hara the same way that Shabbesai Tzvi-ism is the Yetzer Hara.
Perhaps, many years ago, Zionism was the Yetzer Hara, perhaps not. I have absolutely zero interest in getting involved in that debate.
Either way, as MDG alluded, in today’s world, Zionism is most certainly not the Yetzer Hara. It is merely a paper tiger which successfully distracts some people from the real struggles with which they should contend.January 12, 2016 6:06 am at 6:06 am #1148462
Anti-Zionism is the yetzer hara. It is also a psychological phenomena known a “denial”. The Mayo Clinic says:
Refusing to acknowledge that something is wrong is a way of coping with emotional conflict, stress, painful thoughts, threatening information and anxiety. You can be in denial about anything that makes you feel vulnerable or threatens your sense of control, such as an illness, addiction, financial problems or relationship conflicts. You can be in denial about something happening to you or to someone else.
When you’re in denial, you:
Refuse to acknowledge a stressful problem or situation
Avoid facing the facts of the situation
Minimize the consequences of the situation
Rav Tzvi Yehuda said that the term “religious Zionist” is a redundancy. Being religious means being Zionist and one cannot truly be Zionist without being religious.January 12, 2016 8:56 am at 8:56 am #1148463
ROB -“health:and defense lawyers are pure as the driven snow..”
And the Medina is perfect, just like they made people Frei in the 50’s!
“.and have no ulterior motive…”
And the Medina wants to show the world – we have Terrorists too!
“.In truth I have no idea what happened but I sure would not accuse anyone without any concrete proof”
Ya’see the Duma boys are represented by religious Zionists and you’re accusing them of lying?!?January 12, 2016 9:01 am at 9:01 am #1148464
Avi K -“It is also a psychological phenomena known a “denial”.”
Yes, I’m in denial about the existence of the Medina!January 12, 2016 10:04 am at 10:04 am #1148465dbrimParticipant
lovetorah – I LIVE in E”Y and am chareidi/chassidish and 40% of my husband’s salary goes to the krum government (a smaller % goes from my mine). And my main point was:
Satmar DOES take services from the government – you can decide if that’s hypocritical or not
The government is unfortunately krum – think Ohlmert, Duma, the two MKs who just stepped down due to harrassment charges, etc. Which brings me to my next point…
What’s up with you American Chareidim. Why can’t you just move here and help us vote in a government that has torah-dik values? Can we start a new thread called why Americam Chareidim won’t move to Eretz Yisroel? Has this been discussed before? WE NEED YOU HERE!January 12, 2016 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm #1148466Daniell11Member
Gavra at work where is this quote from? I think you have got it a bit mixed upJanuary 12, 2016 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #1148467
A little off topic, I read an article a while back how the French Jews are being assimilated or made irreligious in Israel. This was from someone in the Kalever Rebbe’s organization. We’re not talking 1950s here, the article was in 2015.
He said, IIRC, something to the effect that unlike the Yemenite Jews there are no photos of boys having their peyos forcibly cut to wake up the frum world, but the end result is the same.January 12, 2016 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #1148468
Mammele: There is something called propaganda. It is absolutely a fake report. You think that French Jews are all chareidim in France??? And there are no photos because it is a bogus report! And, by the way, assimilation cannot happen in israel-they are all jews!January 12, 2016 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #1148469
health: all defense lawyers obfuscate the evidence,This is their job! religious or not.
As far as your other comments-the “terrorist” acts actually happened. Their perpetrators are not known, it has nothing to do with the medina’ s wish for terrorists. And no, the medinah is not perfect but it is a lot better than Arab ruled israel-chas vecholilo.January 12, 2016 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #1148470lesschumrasParticipant
Mammele, a reliable source on the French Jews? How exactly are they forcing them to be irreligious?January 12, 2016 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #1148471
Dont belive everything you read.
What could be however is some people remain relious in a place with anti-semitism as they are reminded they are jewish and when they move to a place where there isnt any anti-semitism they stop being religious.January 12, 2016 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1148472
Health, then you screen name is sagi nahor? Refua sheleima.January 12, 2016 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #1148473
Avi K: no, the point was that peyos are not being cut nowadays, the methods are different but the end result is the same. Sorry if I wasn’t concise.
I’ll try to find the original article, it was a Yiddish article in Di Tzeitung and not online (the headline page is online, Di Yidishe Tzeit section – 2909b online, Nov. 29 ’15, Parshas VaYeitza.). From memory: they are encouraged to settle in irreligious neighborhoods. Children who went to religious schools in France go to so-called community schools in Israel. They are led to believe that since they are in a “Jewish” country they no longer need to actually practice Judaism.January 12, 2016 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #1148474
Di Tzeitung is a Satmar paper, they are not in favor of people making Aliyah and would write such thingsJanuary 12, 2016 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #1148475
Actually polls show that Israelis are becoming MORE religious. In fact, secularists have been wringing their hands over an imminent religious takeover of the IDF for the last several years (in fact, already a majority of those in junior officer courses are religious). The garinim Torani’im (groups of DL avereichim and their families who set up communities in weak reas) have had great success in kiruv – including secular families sending their kids to religious kindergartens.
As for olim from France, they go where they please and send their children to those schools they choose. A large number, in fact, go to yishuvim (including mine). The newspaper you cite is simply publishing non-factual statements.January 12, 2016 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #1148476
For the benefit of my fellow CR friends, I’ll try to translate as much as I can. I’m not a professional though. It’s only one part of an extended topic on Jews and Kiruv world-wide. For the full picture you’ll need to get your hands on the complete spread, and read Yiddish.
“The Children Belong to All of Klal Yisroel
A discussion with Rabbi Avraham Newman Shlita, menahel of the Kalev branch in Modiin-Illit who coordinates activities in EY and France.
Can you give us an inkling regarding the number of immigrants you work with?
You have to realize that the Kalver Rebbe met with close to 75,000 Jews in France over the years. The Rebbe has maintained a connection with all of them!
How does that work?
In order to obtain a bracha from the Rebbe Shlita, one must complete a contact info. card. The Rebbe is in contact with every person 6-8 times a year, more often with the youth.
Where is more emphasis placed regarding the French Jews, in EY or France?
Until two years ago the French branch was active almost exclusively in France, to help Jews and strengthen their Yiddishkeit. However in the past two years we work hard in EY, mainly to ensure a Jewish education for the young children.
We have developed a program to help kids adapt in ehrliche mosdos and the goal is that their ascending to EY should not be an “Aliya” for the sake of yerida.
To be continued…January 12, 2016 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #1148477
What’s the biggest obstacle?
There is no class-room space in Charaidi mosdos for children of French immigrants. I currently have a list of over 1,000 children that have arrived in the past 5 months and in many towns/cities there ar no ehrliche mosdos that can accept them.
In Netanya for example, where many immigrants have settled, there are over 350 children that come from religious mosdos in France that have no space in similar schools in Netanya. This is a catastrophe! There are askonim that are trying to create a special school for the French kids.
Children that were registered in France in religious schools like “Merkaz Hatorah” and “Otzer Hatorah”, where boys and girls are separated, are encouraged by the Soknot to attend secular or semi-religious co-Ed schools.
How can we influence the parents?
The key is to get them in a timely manner. The French Jews keep their plans to leave France secret until they are already on the plane. They fear the government there and Ayin Hora. We find out about them after they arrive, and by that time they are already in the hands of the [Israeli] government.
Once the children are registered in secular schools, it’s much harder to convince the parents to withdraw their kids and place them in religious schools.
The ” Soknot” gives money. The government finances the first two years of education for all immigrant children. That’s a lot of money.
To be finished…January 12, 2016 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #1148478
So how can we compete with them?
Through their love and admiration to the Kalever Rebbe Shlita and their emunas Tzaddikim. They feel that the Rebbe has their Ruchnios at heart. He does not accept any money from them; he just requests that they take upon themselves Torah and Mitzvos.
How’s the situation now?
We can’t accomplish by ourselves, we need more kochos. It’s unfortunately a great tragedy. People that were Shomer Shabbos in France, put tefillin daily, drastically declined in just several weeks! In France they knew that a Jew who’s not Shomer Shabbos is a non-Jew, here they think that by simply living in EY one is Jewish.
The situation is exactly like with the Yemenite Jews in the fifties. The only difference is that there are no dramatic pictures of payos being cut, which would have created a massive outcry from the Jewish [religious] world. However, their mesora is being severed, and the consequences are unfortunately the same!”
So maybe you can call it a Satmar or Kalever (which it sort of is) propaganda piece, but it seems truthful to me. And AviK and others will continue to spout that it’s their choice etc… I just had to put it out there despite the difficulty and time involved, because is this the reason we needed a Jewish state? And yes to a great extent Zionism is still the yetzer hora, albeit not the only one.January 12, 2016 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #1148479
There are about 600,000 jews in france and most of them are sephardic. I really doubt the kaliver Rebbe met with 75,000 of them.January 12, 2016 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #1148480
Most French Jews are Sephardim , not Ashkenazic and would not likely be interested in Ashkenazic charedi schoolsJanuary 12, 2016 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #1148481
“You have to realize that the Kalver Rebbe met with close to 75,000 Jews in France over the years. The Rebbe has maintained a connection with all of them!”
If he spent one a hour a person, it would take 8.5 years to speak with every one, and that’s without any break whatsoever.
75,000 / 8760 hours a year = 8.5 yearsJanuary 12, 2016 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #1148482
Who said anything about an hour? I’m not interesting in defending them or going off topic and I don’t know anything about Kalev, but an average kvittel visit with a Rebbe is probably a few minutes.January 12, 2016 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #1148483
Thank you for translating for usJanuary 12, 2016 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #1148484
ROB -“health: all defense lawyers obfuscate the evidence,This is their job! religious or not.”
You’re wrong like usual! They defend people when they’re Not guilty.
When they are, they try to get an easier sentence.
“As far as your other comments-the “terrorist” acts actually happened. Their perpetrators are not known, it has nothing to do with the medina’ s wish for terrorists.”
The reason that they never search for Arabs, in the Duma case, is because of the Medina’s wish to get Jews!
” And no, the medinah is not perfect but it is a lot better than Arab ruled israel-chas vecholilo.”
This is debatable! The Jews had it fine under Turkey’s rule!January 12, 2016 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #1148485
Avi K -“Health, then you screen name is sagi nahor? Refua sheleima”
Maybe your name is really A.K.?January 12, 2016 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #1148486
Let’s assume only 10,000 head of households and only 10 minutes per person per year. That would still require 4.5 hours a day – every single day – for maintaining a connection.
Possible, but IMHO unlikely.January 12, 2016 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #1148487
Emails can be very short and sweet… Why can’t we focus on the topic? So what do you guys say about the fact that the same Israel that purports itself to be the Jewish state, that’s so desperate to get French Jews to immigrate, supposedly to save them because France is loaded with anti-semitism and terrorists, is purposely — at least in many cases — causing them to drop their Yiddishkeit? Or do you honestly think it’s all made up?
And even if the Israeli government was innocent here — which it’s not — do we really need another vehicle for assimilation?
You’re welcome ZD.January 12, 2016 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #1148488
And what makes you think they will remain religious in France?
You dont think there isnt assimilation in France?
In general Sephardic “non religious” keep more than Ashkenzaic “non relgious” and tend to respect their gedolim even if they are not relgious themselves, which is not the case with Ashkenanzim. So they will not be as non-relgious as is made out to be in this article. It is easier to be a jew even if Non-relgious in israel than in France. And it is more likley they will be lost in France than in israel. Its much harder to intermarry in Israel than it is in FranceJanuary 12, 2016 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #1148489
mammele:Sorry but this whole article is bogus,from the kaliver rebbe having 75,000 chassidim and keeping in touch with every one of them-to the fact that french jews are encouraged not to be religious. This is bogus- they may not want to go into “ehrliche” schools, because these are extreme schools and most french jews will enroll their kids in dati leumi school. So,this whole article is wrong from beginning to end.
health: defense lawyers are paid to get their clients off. Even if they are guilty as heck.
Your last comment,about being better off under Turkey, again shows your incredulous imaginary world and your total lack of any reality check.
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