Israel – acting rashly?

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  • #1972690
    truth2power
    Participant

    For the first time in my life, I am struggling to feel supportive of the Israeli authorities when it comes to clashes with the Palestinians.
    There is usually a clear, provocative action taking my the Palestinians which warrants an understandable robust response by the Israelis.
    This time, it seems that Israel has been leading the provocations: Har Habayis, Shimon Hatzadik, right-wing protests in Arab areas etc… Some of the videos and photos coming out showing Israeli police being overly aggressive and violent.
    What is going on? Am I only seeing half the story? I don’t like feeling like this!!!

    #1973207
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Shooting hundreds of rockets at Israeli civilians isn’t provocative? 🤔

    #1973218
    besalel
    Participant

    The time is as follows: the (very leftist, pro-Arab) Israeli Supreme Court ruled that the 1956 takeover of a Jewish home by Palestinians in Sheik Jara was illegal and its tenants are squatters. In response to a legal ruling, the Arabs of Shiek Jara resorted to violence and began stoning Jews from Beit Yisrael and randomly beating Yeshiva students in public. That caused a jewish organization called Lehava to come to the defense of the yeshiva boys. In response, Arabs in Al Aqsa started firing fireworks and throwing rocks from inside the mosque at jewish worshippers at the kotel below. All these videos you see of weapons explosions in Al Aqsa are arabs firing fireworks not israeli law enforcement officers. Hamas then began bombarding Israel with rockets even though it knows that it has no means of stopping retaliatory strikes. Hamas, essentially is willing to concede Arab live in Gaza in order to gain popularity in the streets.

    #1973229
    Milhouse
    Participant

    Truth?! You are a liar. I don’t believe your claim to have supported Israeli action in the past, because what’s happening now is no different from any other time. There are no Israeli “provocations”, and Israeli police are NOT “overly aggressive and violent”. On the contrary, as usual they are overly restrained and merciful, which the Arabs see as weakness and it encourages them to more violence. The only time they are overly aggressive is when Jews respond with counter-violence, just as Etzel did in the 1930s and 40s; THEN they become violent.

    #1973246
    ujm
    Participant

    There’s little doubt Netanyahu’s actions in this crisis are influenced by what will benefit him politically in the ongoing negotiations for a new government.

    #1973247

    “Am I only seeing half the story?”-yes. That simple. You watch some mainstream videos its pretty hard to think the palestinians are wrong, but it’s simply half the story.

    #1973252
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Besalel

    Thanks for the primer, I didn’t know that’s what it was about

    I didn’t put two and two together I thought the current part was because of Yom Yerushalayim

    #1973291
    lakewhut
    Participant

    No Israel isn’t acting rashly enough. They should cut electricity and water to all Arabs

    #1973307
    Health
    Participant

    Lakewhut – WRONG!
    They should take back Gaza & West Bank.
    Trying to make Peace with these Nomads, that call themselves Palestinians never worked and it never will work!

    #1973314
    Ari256
    Participant

    I want to give my two cents.

    One- this is a correction(like “stock correction”) being that trump was extremely pro-Israeli, this is a fallout of that. Meaning if he had won then there wouldn’t be this violence. But as he “poked the bear” so to speak and then lost… so the world and in this case the situation in Israel is reacting.
    Secondly from what I saw this began on TikTok with Arabs attacking chareidim. during for views then the reaction with a settlers March near shar shchem and then escalated from there.
    It’s so stupid that this was basically caused by some kids trying to make a meme or get views.
    And I have to wonder TikTok being owned by China if there is an aspect of them promoting videos that will create anger and chaos. For example it hasn’t popped up on my screen any videos of protests in Hong Kong?

    #1973272
    RebAvrumi
    Participant

    Truth, I agree with you. Although hamas is indeed acting insanely by firing hundreds or thousands of rockets into Israeli cities, the Israelis are acting rashly by striking back without care, and they’ve already killed many civilians. There is no mitzva in the torah to kill old Palestinian women in their cramped apartments. NO, not all Palestinians are terrorist who would kill you if they had the chance. There is no reason for the IDF to throw caution to the winds. Retaliation (or provocation?) must be done carefully.

    #1973325
    interjection
    Participant

    You want the story?

    Har Habayis: Leave the Halachic question of whether or not Jews should be going to Har Habayis. If Israel had a neighbourhood in the country where Palestinians were forbidden from going, it would be an international outrage. The Palestinians stockpiled rocks and stones to throw at police (something which the police are concerned that their intelligence didn’t manage to uncover in time). Whatever you saw, was the aftermath of the Palestinians throwing big rocks at Israelis, attempting to kill.

    Shimon Hatzadik: There were some properties in neighbouring Sheikh Jarrah. Arabs stole the land but according to a court ruling, they were paying rent. They stopped paying rent so the Israeli court ordered evictions. AOC and her friends got involved and cried that the evil Israelis are trying to evict poor Palestinian children from their homes. In my opinion, that gave the Pales the green light to start attacking Jews who live by Shimon Hatzadik. They attacked the Jews for a month while the police did nothing (because the police don’t want to escalate tensions which were already pretty high). Last week, the Palestinians set a car on fire and the Jews felt that their life was in danger. After waiting 40 minutes for Police to show up, and worried for their lives, the Jewish residents of Shimon Hatzadik, took out their guns and that is the footage that you saw. Only then, did the police show up.

    Israeli military acting rashly by throwing random rockets at Gazan buildings: Are you sure you were watching the right footage? The one’s sending random rockets targeting civilians are Hamas. Hamas houses their rockets and military supplies in apartment buildings, hospitals and schools. The IDF warns for hours in advance where they will be sending precise strikes in order to clean out Hamas’s terror supplies. If some old Palestinian grandma decides to stay home, she essentially committed suicide.

    #1973332
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Thank you interjection. How anyone can think IDF is throwing caution to thw wind is beyond me. Either it’s a troll post, or he gets his news from AOC’s twitter feeds.

    #1973334
    interjection
    Participant

    Right-wing protests in Palestinian areas: Palestinian teens were randomly beating up Chareidim for the sake of Tiktok fame. In response, far-right extremists protested in Arab areas.

    #1973381
    truth2power
    Participant

    To clarify, I wrote this before the rockets started coming over from Gaza. There is no justification for this and Israel should strike back with full force (doing its best to protect innocent civilians). I was referring to Har Habayis, Shimon Hatzadik and the general unpleasantness within Israel, not on its borders.
    @interjection So those teens should have been arrested and faced the law. We are privileged to have a fully functioning Jewish state that doesn’t need to rely on responses from right-wing nuts ‘getting their own back’ to achieve justice.
    We (rightly) get very upset when videos come out of Arabs shouting ‘Death to Israel’ and burning Israeli flags, yet in the past two weeks we have seen multiple videos of Jews shouting ‘Death to Arabs’, ‘Yemach Shemam’ and similar provocations.
    It leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. We are losing the moral high ground.

    #1973417
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant
    #1973447
    midwesterner
    Participant

    “To clarify, I wrote this before the rockets started coming over from Gaza.”

    Liar. Posts are time stamped.

    #1973459
    Ari256
    Participant

    When here I’m used to at most a two term president, it’s hard not to see Netanyahu as not moving on, 5 elections..

    #1973449
    The little I know
    Participant

    Truth:

    What a bizarre screen name. You attacked innocent Israel quite maliciously, backtracking with the lame excuse that you wrote it before the rockets. Bupkis. You are nothing better than the run of the mill leftists, whose narrative is devoid of morality or fact.

    Israel is not an aggressor, and has never been one. Correct, never. Any insinuation that they are is a vicious lie. The entire military is not meant for offense, only defense. You must know that because it is plainly obvious.

    Israel has zero interest in taking Palestinian lives. Not old ladies, not children, not young adults, not even terrorists. Israel wants peace, nothing more. The Palestinian subhuman savages don’t want freedom, land, or money. They are bloodthirsty, and are only appeased with Jewish blood. Yes, yours and mine. Concessions by Israel of land, money, supplies, food, medicine, etc. accomplish nothing, and history testifies to this. The slightest thing is exploited as a basis to launch into terror. Our current violence is the wishes of Biden and the American left, providing these animals with money and supplies via Iran. And we are perfectly moral and justified in including in our tefilos the demise of this evil ideology and the those who perpetuate it. If you have any morality to you, jump off that ship quick.

    #1973491
    lakewhut
    Participant

    Ari Bennet and Saar would have to be insane to join a coalition with Hamas party ra’am. They have held this election up.

    #1973654
    MadeAliyah
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer @laskern, we don’t need Pelosi to tell us whether or not we have the right to defend ourselves, we need her to call Sheikh Yousef Biden and tell him to stop funding terrorism immediately.

    #1973722
    dbrim
    Participant

    YWN – Shame on you for allowing this thread started by an ignorant leftist soenei yisroel who clearly couldn’t cares less about the truth. You want the truth? Jews are are being murdered by ruthless violent terrorists under the pretext that they have rights to har habayis and Jerusalem and all the rest of our homeland. If we reject EY, we may just not be worthy of it.

    #1973765
    Health
    Participant

    Reb Avrumi & Truth 2power – It’s sicking how much you hate other Jews.
    I don’t want a Jewish State, but there is one right now.

    If the Liberal Supreme Court in Israel said they can evict these Arabs – how in the world could anybody say that their violence is Understandable?!?
    The Hatred from the Left is So now in the Open.
    So anybody who Votes, even in the US, for the These Antisemitic Leftists – You are just like Them!
    Biden, Harris, & on down!

    #1973767

    RebAvrumi, you are awfully misinformed, ” Israelis are acting rashly by striking back without care, and they’ve already killed many civilians.”-That is simply dead wrong, Hamas intentionally hides behind civilians, Israel issues warnings before they attack civilian areas. Additionally, many of the “civilian deaths” are actually from Hamas fire. Israelis are acting rashly by striking back without care, and they’ve already killed many civilians.

    #1973770

    M.a.-EXACTLY!
    It’s interesting, I think American Liberal Jews who are defending the palestians, would call for them to be nuked if they were in Israel these days. Senator Tom Cotton summed up the situation great, “If Hamas put down their weapons, there would be peace. If Israel put down their weapons, there would be no Israel”.

    #1973787
    interjection
    Participant

    I don’t support protesters. I was just sharing the backstories.

    What would you have preferred to be done by Shimon Hatzadik? That they should have sat calmly and not responded until one of their kids were murdered? There are Israeli families who live in that neighbourhood, including my daughter’s classmate. (Today, my daughter came home from school telling me that they could see from the windows of their school that it looked like Kever Shimon Hatzadik was on fire. I don’t think it actually was on fire but the young elementary school kids were convinced that it was). They claimed they were afraid for their lives, which isn’t crazy to believe considering that the Arabs had already set a car on fire.

    Those shouting death to Arabs are extremist. We cannot control every extremist. On the other hand, the ones shouting death to Jews are the mainstream Arabs.

    #1973852
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant
    #1973847
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    I’m not sure what crime truth2power committed by asking. He wanted to agree with Israel. Why can’t he be given the benefit of the doubt, That he only say part of the story? As he himself offered. Maybe having opinions by virtue of questioning and thinking and accepting is considered very wrong on these pages.

    I think Ari265 has two brilliant points.

    #1974023
    Lostspark
    Participant

    Truth:

    What masechta are you and Noam Chomsky leading together?

    #1974140
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Lost,

    I would learn Torah with Chomsky if he was interested. Are you insinuating that Torah is less than Jewish patriotism?

    #1974185
    MadeAliyah
    Participant

    Aaaarrrgggghhhh!!!!!! There’s a cockroach in my house!!! Reb Eliezer @laskern can you please call Joe or Nancy and ask them if I have the right to kill it?

    #1974240
    Health
    Participant

    MA -” can you please call Joe or Nancy and ask them if I have the right to kill it?”

    Are you kidding?
    Of course Not.
    That would be Hurting the environment!

    The only ones you’re allowed to kill is Jews.
    Not just the Arabs/Muslims believe this, but also the Ones who support the Terrorists.
    Namely the Leftists, Like the Obama & Biden’s administrations!

    C’mon Iran & the Palestinians need the US money for their poor people –
    They don’t use it to Terrorize against Anyone!

    #1974273
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    You have been constanty complaining that Joe and Nancy are supporting the Arabs, so now you take for granted tbat they do not and don’t have the OP question.

    #1974331
    MadeAliyah
    Participant

    >You have been constanty complaining that Joe and Nancy are supporting the Arabs, so now you take for granted tbat they do not<

    They do support the Arabs, they send them millions of dollars.

    #1974377
    som1
    Participant

    “the Israelis are acting rashly by striking back without care, and they’ve already killed many civilians. There is no mitzva in the torah to kill old Palestinian women in their cramped apartments.”

    uh??no!! actually it is not rash to to bomb terrorist in a terror state even if the terrorist are using human shields in fact it is a mitzva

    #1974370
    dovrosenbaum
    Participant

    The OP is vastly mistaken.
    e, false claims have been made that the Israeli laws are unfair because Jews can recover property in the West Bank, but Palestinians can’t recover property in pre-1967 Israel.

    While Sheikh Jarrah is home to the American Colony Hotel and the former Orient House of the late Faisal Husseini, it is perhaps best known to Jews for two reasons:

    First, in April 1948 Palestinian attackers carried out a horrific massacre in Sheikh Jarrah, killing 78 Jewish doctors, nurses, patients and others, who were in a convoy up to Mt. Scopus and Hadassah Hospital. The massacre was observed by British soldiers, who did nothing to stop it.

    Second, the proximity of Sheikh Jarrah to the Tomb of Shimon haTzadik, a prominent Second Temple High Priest. Shimon’s Tomb has been a Jewish pilgrimage site for many hundreds of years, and religious Jews have therefore been eager to buy land and live in the area. In 1876 Jews bought Simon’s Tomb and an adjacent field of 18 dunams from Arab owners. The buyer, a committee of Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews, divided the property. While the Ashkenazi half remained vacant, the Sephardic Jews began building homes on their half, establishing a community that eventually numbered in the hundreds before diminishing in the face of Arab violence in the 1930’s.

    Sheikh Jarrah After 1948

    During the war invading Jordanian forces took Judea and Samaria, including Sheikh Jarrah and other parts of Jerusalem, and the Jews who survived the fighting had to flee. The Jordanian Custodian of Enemy Property took control of all West Bank property owned by Jews including Jewish buildings and land in Sheikh Jarrah. Incidentally, the Jordanian Custodian also took property of Israeli Arabs in the Jordanian-occupied area, since like Israeli Jews, they were now citizens of an enemy state.

    Much of the Jewish land taken by the Jordanian Custodian was transferred to the Jordanian government, which used it, for example, to construct government buildings in East Jerusalem, and to create the Dheisheh Refugee Camp – which is built entirely on Jewish-owned land. In addition, Palestinian refugee camps at Qalandia and Anata were built in part on Jewish land that had been taken by the Custodian. (See Arab Building in Jerusalem: 1967—1997, Israel Kimhi, p48-49, and also, from the leaked Palestine papers, NSU Draft Memo Re: Rights of Jews Within the OPT Acquired pre-1967)

    In 1956 the Jordanian Government reached an agreement with UNRWA to use the vacant Ashkenazi land in Sheikh Jarrah to build houses for 28 Palestinian refugee families. Under the scheme the Custodian leased the land to the Jordanian Ministry of Development, and the United Nations (UNRWA) funded the construction. The refugees would agree to give up their refugee assistance and ration cards and would pay nominal rent for a probationary period of three years and three months. Those tenants who lived up to the lease terms would be allowed to sign a long-term lease of 30 years, and after that a further 33 years.

    The tenants claim that under a side agreement they received title to their homes after the initial three-year period, but there is no evidence of such an arrangement, which would obviously conflict with the fact that they had to sign a lease.

    In any event, there is no evidence that any of the 28 families ever gained title to the homes from Jordan or UNRWA. They were tenants paying rent.

    The Situation After 1967

    Speaking generally, the Jordanian government purchased, or took by eminent domain, much of the Jewish property held by the Custodian, at which point the property being held in trust for the Jewish owner was replaced by the money gained in the transaction. The property in question was no longer Jewish-owned, and even after 1967 there is no way for the original Jewish owners to regain rights to such property, such as the previously mentioned Dheisheh Refugee Camp and Jordanian government buildings. The Jewish owners were only able to file for compensation from the Israeli Custodian who took over for the Jordanian Custodian.

    In contrast to this, the land in Sheikh Jarrah was exceptional as it continued to be held in trust for the Jewish owners by the Jordanian Custodian, and then by the Israeli Custodian after 1967.

    Is the Land Really Jewish Owned?

    The Jordanian Custodian took the land in Sheikh Jarrah after 1948 because it was Jewish-owned, and in the next 19 years no one in the West Bank or Jordan disputed the fact that it was Jewish-owned land. While in recent years some Palestinians have come forward claiming to be the rightful owners of the land, their silence for so many years, especially when the land was first taken by the Jordanian Custodian, makes their claims extremely dubious, and Israeli courts have consistently found against them.

    Israeli Government Not Expelling Anyone

    It must be stressed also that this is a civil dispute over ownership rights and rent, and the Israeli government is not a party to the litigation. Over the years some of the Palestinian tenants have been evicted over non-payment of rent, but this is a private rather than a government matter. The Israeli government is not evicting anyone.

    Once the Jewish claimants proved their ownership to the Sheikh Jarrah land in court, they also did not try to evict the Palestinian families – they merely informed them they would have to pay rent.

    In 1982 the Jewish owners sued the Palestinian tenants for non-payment of rent and the lawyer representing the Palestinian families did not dispute the Jewish ownership of the land. Instead, he worked out a court-sanctioned agreement between the Jewish owners and the Palestinians, under which the families would agree to pay rent and would be considered “protected tenants.” As such, they could not be evicted if they lived up to the lease, including by paying rent, and under certain circumstances their families could inherit their rights to the apartment.

    Perhaps under pressure from the PLO, along with monetary inducements, most but not all of the tenants soon renounced the agreement and once again claimed they owned the units and refused to pay rent.

    Israel’s Handling of Palestinian Land

    Property left behind by Arabs who fled during the fighting in 1948 (ie, absentee property) was turned over Israel’s Custodian of Absentee Property, which sold most of the property to state or related bodies for public purposes, such as housing the hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees from Arab countries who found refuge in Israel. The Custodian held the value of the property in trust for the registered Arab owner (with adjustments for inflation and interest).

    Those registered owners are eligible to file for compensation from the Custodian, but Palestinians were pressured not to make claims, lest that legitimize Israel’s existence and sovereignty. Still, over the years at least 14,692 claims have been filed, claims have been settled with respect to more than 200,000 dunums of land, more than 10,000,000 NIS (New Israeli Shekels) has been paid in compensation, and more than 54,000 dunums of replacement land in Israel has been given in compensation. Israel has followed this generous policy despite the fact that not a single penny of compensation has ever been paid to any of the more than 500,000 Jewish refugees from Arab countries, who were forced by the Arab governments to abandon their homes, businesses and savings.

    Critics of Israel charging unfairness or “asymmetry” in application of absentee property laws might want to consider that asymmetry first.

    #1974443
    efshar azoi
    Participant

    Nu Rabosai,
    Iz balt der heliger yom tov Shavuos!!

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