Israeli Army Is Not Short on ManpowerWhy Draft the Bnei Torah?

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  • #608270
    stamamen
    Member

    The Israeli army and government openly acknowledge the obvious fact that the army is not short on manpower and is not lacking anything that by drafting the Bnei Torah will increase the army’s efficiency and/or power. (If that ever changed, which has never been the case, we could reconsider it then.)

    So why the mad angry rush by the chilonim to draft the Bnei Torah?

    Why not allow them to continue full-time Limud Torah? 86% of Israeli 18-21 year olds serve in the army while only 9% learn in Yeshiva. And from those only 4% learn Torah full-time. So not only doesn’t the Army need the yeshivaleit’s manpower but the Yeshiva’s and Klal Yisroel could use additional full-time talmidim in Yeshivos!

    We aren’t short-staffed in the army. We are short-staffed of talmidei hayeshivos. We need the additional protection that more Limud Torah provides. More Torah = More Protection.

    Anyone care to speculate on their motivations?

    #931414
    ari-free
    Participant

    I agree with this. Let chareidim work and they will be able to support those who do learn without any strings attached by the government.

    #931415
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    FYI Lapid wants the Arabs to serve as well

    #931416
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Part of my wife’s chiloni cousins objections is that Chareidim live at home, are free to come and go .they feel that if learning is the chareidi form of national service, the students should be the living with the same conditions and restrictions as IDF soldiers. The

    #931417
    daniela
    Participant

    Stalin HaRasha during WW2 made sure that conscience objectors would work in labor camps, lest people “abuse” the system and exploit conscience objection as “the easy way out”. Are you suggesting something similar?

    PS Please explain your nickname, as I am not sure how more gvurah and less chumras go together. Unless you are sarcastically remarking how less chumrot (aka bending halacha so it fits with “modern” lifestyle and mentality) brings R”L more din upon the world, if so I apologize for having misunderstood you and your recent posts.

    #931418
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    I think their issue is more about the money hat yeshiva guys get from he government without having served in the military. Some want to tie that stipend to military service.

    There are other things chareidim could do besides serving in the military. They can do Sherut Leumi instead. I believe serving in Magen David Adom qualifies for that – let more chareidim work in MDA, and they can continue to get the stipend. There are plenty of other opportunities in Sherut Leumi that would be acceptable for Chareidim.

    #931419
    chevron
    Member

    The politicians are threatening jail (Lapid, Lieberman, et al), not revocation of financial benefits, for those that refuse the draft. By default, the current law imposes imprisonment on draft dodgers.

    #931420
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Daniela, your comment “bending halacha to fit modern lifestyles” is what my name is all about. You are confusing halacha with chumra and I object to people bending halacha to fit their chumra lifestyle. Gobrochts is a perfect example. It’s a chumra. Howeve I’ve been accused of kulas shopping because I eat gebrocht .I’ve no objection to chumras unless, like gebrocht, you try to impose it on others as if the chumra was halacha

    #931421

    This is not true. I personally know the IDF most definitely has a manpower shortage (as well as a money shortage).

    And indeed, as “lesschumras” writes:

    “Part of my wife’s chiloni cousins objections is that Chareidim live at home, are free to come and go .they feel that if learning is the chareidi form of national service, the students should be the living with the same conditions and restrictions as IDF soldiers.”

    I agree with that. Soldiers are not free to go and leave their base whenever they want. They need approval to leave their base. Make it the same for yeshivos. Any bochur who wants to leave the doors/compound of the yeshiva needs to have a stamped ishur, and these must be strictly controlled. (This could tie in with the proposed system of using smart cards to check in/out to confirm attendance.)

    #931422
    daniela
    Participant

    Gebrochts? Most observant Jews, askhenazim and sefaradim from all sort of different communities, eat gebrocht. Chassidim don’t, and those people must not eat: it is not a chumra but it’s their minhag, which is a halachic obligation to follow, not an optional stringency. Funny no one ever commented to me about gebrocht, which I eat and buy: at most someone pointed out to me among the products on the shelves which ones are gebrocht. Even funnier that someone bothered you about it while shopping, thus suggesting that you met some ignorant and possibly newly religious individual. I wonder why you did not take the opportunity to explain to him that many minhagim allow gebrocht (including yours, I assume) and that the reason he must not eat himself, which no doubt the rabbi had made clear to him, has nothing to do with chometz – the Talmud is very clear, matza and water do not create chometz, period – but still if that is his family’s minhag, or his rabbi’s, he is obligated in following it.

    Given that ignorance brings punishment upon the world, I would have appreciated you had picked a correct example for a chumra. Being careful about yoshon in chutz laaretz is a chumra. Avoiding gebrochts on Pesach is a chumra only if I were to do it (actually, it would ordinarily be forbidden for those of us who have a minhag of eating some special gebrocht dish), but for chassidim it is not a chumra – it is the halacha. Anyway. You say you don’t have a problem about other people’s chumrot, even when they are true chumrot and not halacha (kol isha is a chumra too? I could continue with army service and national service “features”, but those examples are not fit for this website). So why are charedim such a huge problem for refusing to mix? I don’t have a problem with you, I don’t have a problem with the reforms, I just stay away, is that so disturbing to you?

    DaMoshe since when do we compel people to do volunteer service? is it volunteer, or compulsory? What is forced civilian conscription for, or is it yet another idea to force assimilation, and at the same time to keep remarking that charedim don’t risk their life and are thus second-class?

    TGH that’s brilliant, yeshivot should lock up Torah students, so the govt won’t have to pay for building and maintaining new jails and extra personnel, ’cause you know, these are young men who need to be locked up for their criminal behaviour, instead some zionist-religious school students (see article on today’s YWN) and the weed-enjoying squatters and the rock-throwing minorities deserve a medal and public funding to continue with their lifestyle at the taxpayers’ expense. I am going to teach my children how to play cards, because it looks like the new generation will need to pretend playing cards while in fact they are studying.

    #931423
    stamamen
    Member

    Gatesheader: You are disagreeing with the IDF Generals who are on the record as stating that Chareidi manpower is not needed and that, in fact, it would take a great and concerted effort to integrate Chareidim into the IDF.

    #931424
    About Time
    Participant

    “This is not true. I personally know the IDF most definitely has a manpower shortage “

    Sunday, August 12th, 2012

    The ratio vs. space available in the paratroopers brigade is 4:1,i.e. there are four guys applying for every possible combat position.

    On the lower end,in the Tank Division there is 1:7 applicants for every possible combat spot.

    The rest of the combat units are somewhere in between(with the IAF of course,even more selective)

    As noted settler Lt. Col. Yishai Fleisher wrote a couple months ago, the greatest danger many members of the IDF ever face are the traffic circles in Tel Aviv.

    #931425
    About Time
    Participant

    “They need approval to leave their base. Make it the same for yeshivos. Any bochur who wants to leave the doors/compound of the yeshiva needs to have a stamped ishur, and these must be strictly controlled.”

    And maybe dog tags too.

    When they wanted to make punch cards for the rabbeim in Torah V’Daas, R’ Yaakov Kamenetzky adamantly opposed and shot it down.

    Sure. This would also further their invidious goals, reducing bnei torah to indentured auxiliary servitude.

    #931426
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Daniela, the name lesschumras was chosen by the user. The subtitle more din was applied by a moderator.

    #931427
    About Time
    Participant

    “Part of my wife’s chiloni cousins objections is that Chareidim live at home, are free to come and go”

    If they are secular israeli ashkenazim, you need not respond. They know the truth better than you do. (As once when I had a store debate with a middle aged ponytail leftist type and I demolished his accusations, his reply was a positive grunt.)

    At most demand of them: how is it when there is war, everyone is together and talk of yeshiva draft stops?

    e.g. during the Yom Kippur war when some bochrim offered to join the army, they were told to go back and learn and daven for them.

    If they are sephardim (or american olim) it is indeed hard. In their simplicity they are/were “robbed and killed” for a leadership whose end goals were diamentrically opposed to what they themselves gave their life and limb for.

    An analogy would be Boxer in Orwell’s Animal Farm

    #931428
    About Time
    Participant

    National Indentured Service

    “There are other things chareidim could do besides serving in the military. They can do Sherut Leumi instead. I believe serving in Magen David Adom qualifies for that – let more chareidim work in MDA, and “

    As MK Eichler put it, they want the chareidim to be their “chotvei mayim” and “shoavei eitzim”

    #931429
    akuperma
    Participant

    The army has more volunteers for combat units than they have vacancies. People are turned away from combat units. This suggest that the army has no shortage of manpower. Given the proven importance of unit coehsion, the army doesn’t to wake up and discover that 20% of the soldiers are from an entirely different culture and share nothing in common with the rest of the unit.

    However Israel is facing an existential threat. At current growth rates, the majority of the country will be Orthodox in the forseeable future. The whole zionist enterprise is based on the deal of converting Jews from backwards diaspora-oriented religious fanatics into good modern secularists (the “Am Hofshi” – free from the yoke of Torah – in their anthem).

    In the past, a high percentage of soldiers became substantially less religious through army service, i.e., managed to adjust and become “normal”. While they don’t hope for the same sucess they had in getting most of the Sefardim to abandon backwards religious practices (they went from over 90% frum to less than 50%), with any luck enough hareidim can be normalized to keep Israel zionist rather than risk it turning Jewish. From their perspective, that’s a feature, not a bug.

    #931430
    kfb
    Participant

    I had this argument with my Jewish coworker today. My argument was as follows: In America, we wake up early, work hard and provide for our families. Doesn’t it bother you that your hard earned money is going to the shvartzahs and lowlives who are too lazy to work. Your hard earned tax money goes to millions who are on welfare instead going into your pocket or improving our lives. Now let’s look at Israel. Doesn’t it bother you that your son has to put his life on the line while your son doesn’t? Doesn’t it bother you that your hard earned money goes to people who don’t work and take as much benefits as possible? I think it’s a legit argument.

    #931431
    chevron
    Member

    kfb: Do you want America to cutoff welfare and food stamps?

    Doesn’t it bother you that some folks sons learn Torah while other folks sons skirt their duty to learn Torah?

    #931432
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    I don’t think it’s so much an issue of drafting B’nei Torah as it is an issue of Kollel Yungerlite not working. In theory, if instead of a draft/kollel option there would be an option for anyone over 30 to leave kollel and get a job, a lot more Chareidim would be working and a lot less non-Frum would be angry at them.

    The problem is that it seems to me that any attempt by anyone to institute a tertiary option is met with ridiculous cries of “destroying the oilom haTorah”. Can’t everyone just agree that there can possibly be something other than “soul destroying army duty for a treifa medina” and “learn in kollel on government handouts and whatever you can schnor no matter how much of a masmid you aren’t”?

    #931433
    kfb
    Participant

    Chevron: yes I want America to cutoff food stamps and welfare.

    #931434
    chevron
    Member

    And if children have no food they should be let to starve?

    #931435
    WIY
    Member

    I think Aish Hatorah is secretly behind the draft the chareidim thing.They are trying to do a massive kiruv project.

    #931436
    sh9888
    Member

    chareidi women mostly have respectable proffesions which contribute to the economy.

    avreichim receive 700 NIS a month from the gov. Thats less than $200. Try living on that.

    The cost of a soldier/uni student is much greater.

    #931437
    goldersgreener
    Participant

    Ya’ir lapid would like to reduce the draft from 3 years down to 2.5, that way there will be the same amount of soldiers in the army, without extra expense, while sharing teh burden equally.

    While everyone here undoubtedly realises the truth of the chareidi position, one cannot fully blame the nonreligious for their complaints.

    #931438
    goldersgreener
    Participant

    Lapid has suggested that an extra 15% of people serve, with everyone serving two and a half years instead of three. That way the army will not have too many people, or waste money, but the burden will be equally shared.

    The army would obviously prefer less people there for a longer period of time, this will svae them money on training, and the average soldier will be on hgiher standard. However lapid system will allow for more reserves.

    I am not coming to justify lapid in any way, however I am responding to the OP’s question.

    #931439

    Even if everyone serves the full three years, the free labor could be used for numerous other things, including paving roads, hospital services …

    Ehud Barak made this argument years ago.

    If much of the government expenses are covered by chariedi workers it can save the government a fortune in terms of transport, health, and education.

    As GG, i am not coming to justify lapid, or even to ignore that much of their rhetoric is simply anti chareidi, i am just answering the op’s question.

    #931440
    kfb
    Participant

    Chevron: who said anything about letting children starve. It’s a parents responsibility to bring food to the table for their children. The 2 worst things for our generation are welfare and parents supporting their kids when they get married. There’s no such thing as the harder you work the more you will get. Why? Because welfare and parents supporting their married kids have killed the work ethic in my generation.

    #931441
    akuperma
    Participant

    If they wanted kollel students to join the “over the table” workforce, they would abolish conscription so they could take jobs in the mainstream economy without serving in the army. They would also enact laws against religious discrimination similar to the United States – Israel is one giant “hostile workplace environment” from an American legal perspective.

    If they needed more hareidi soldiers, they would take seriously the enforcement of the laws requiring uniform observance of halacha in the army – which has been the law in Israel since the 1950s. As it is, the law if observed only if there are hareidim with lots of protectksia making vocal complaints.

    #931442
    daniela
    Participant

    “Even if everyone serves the full three years, the free labor could be used for numerous other things, including paving roads, hospital services …”

    Building pyramids?

    “Ehud Barak made this argument years ago.”

    Pharaoh made this argument a long time before copycats and wannabees entered the scene.

    #931443
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Joe:

    And if children have no food they should be let to starve?

    As per the Gemorah Kesubos, their parents’ names should be announced on the street daily and they should be embarassed in public. This should be done until they get a menial job so they can feed the children that they brought into this world.

    #931444
    yossief
    Member

    The reason they want to draft Yeshiva Bocherim into the army, is to equalize the sacrifice that they have to make. I don;t think it is fair that some people just sit in Yeshiva, not necessarily learning, and the CHILONIM die while protecting the country. People could sit in Yeshiva all their lives, EXCEPT when they are helping to protect ALL the Jews in the army.

    I had a first cousin was killed in Sinai. We also have several uncles who were frum, and served in the army as career soldiers.

    More Torah = More Protection, is a nice phrase, but tell that to my aunt who lost a son, because he wasn’t sitting in Yeshiva.

    Israel is a small country, and all it’s citizens should take part in its defense.

    #931445
    yossief
    Member

    “Sure. This would also further their invidious goals, reducing bnei torah to indentured auxiliary servitude.”

    I don’t understand this phrase. What is wrong with accountability? Soldiers protect the land, and they answer to their superiors. WHat’s wrong with Yeshiva Students doing the same, considering that most people say that is also protecting the land. Many of them don’t even bother showing up for Minyan on time.

    #931446
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Israel is a small country, and all it’s citizens should take part in its defense.

    Charaidim don’t consider themselves “citizens” of Israel. Most of them (even those who take money) would be just as happy if the Arabs took over, as long as there would not be a subsequent massacre.

    #931447
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Charaidim don’t consider themselves “citizens” of Israel. Most of them (even those who take money) would be just as happy if the Arabs took over, as long as there would not be a subsequent massacre.

    I think most chardim even in the US would prefer to live in a place where there was overt Anti-Semitism and discrimination as long as nobody was killed.

    The First Lubavicher Rebbe when Napoleon was conquering the Europe started to give the jews freedom and liberty. The Alter Rebbe went against Napoleon (and was jailed and had to flee) because he felt freedom and liberty was bad for the jews.

    #931448
    Health
    Participant

    ZD – And he was right. How many Jews were lost to assimilation in the US? And now Israel -they complain the Charedim are Not sharing the burden. What burden? The burden of making Jews Frei, like they did to the Yemenites, or the burden of protecting Jews? It must be the former, because with the latter learning Torah is the best protection. Yes, more Jews have been lost in Israel to Freikeit than any casaulty in war.

    #931449
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Many jews hated anti-semitism, thats why the left for the US as soon as they could. Many joined the Haskallah, The Bund (secular socialists) was the largest political party in Pre-war Poland. Most of the early Bolshevicks were jewish.

    #931450
    Health
    Participant

    ZD – They also hated G-d. They should of listened to the Torah and their lives would have been easier.

    #931451
    benignuman
    Participant

    “Charaidim don’t consider themselves “citizens” of Israel. Most of them (even those who take money) would be just as happy if the Arabs took over, as long as there would not be a subsequent massacre.”

    I seriously doubt that this is true. Most Chareidim I know take pride in the success of Israel and enjoy their position as citizens with full rights and free travel to the places they hold dear.

    Also, there would almost certainly be a subsequent massacre. You can rephrase the statement so that “Jews are a small minority in the Middle East and all Jews should take part in their defense.”

    #931452
    springbok007
    Participant

    how many of you eitza gebbers have served in the IDF, been to Israel or is it just eingeret.Oh by the way yes i have served and fought in a war etc with many other frumies. Leave politics to the politicians, it is all loud noise to validate their existence.

    #931453
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The Israeli army and government openly acknowledge the obvious fact that the army is not short on manpower and is not lacking anything that by drafting the Bnei Torah will increase the army’s efficiency and/or power.

    Sounds like a question the B’nei Gad and B’nei Reuven could have asked. I wonder what the answer given to them was…

    The Wolf

    #931454
    Naftush
    Member

    Akuperma says, “If they wanted kollel students to join the “over the table” workforce, they would abolish conscription so they could take jobs in the mainstream economy without serving in the army.” It sounds as though you agree with Hiddush, Mr. Regev, and others who accuse them of using kollel as a draft dodge. What would you say to my son, who spent 2+ years in kollel, *then* did his compulsory service, and *then* enrolled in a teaching degree program?

    Akuperma adds, “As it is, the law [on observing halakha in the IDF) if observed only if there are hareidim with lots of protectksia making vocal complaints.” During my regular and reserve service (1982-2003), I often reminded my commanders to uphold these things (kashrut, negiya, time for davening, Shabbat, etc.) by making firm but polite requests. I got my way every time because no commander will balk when halakha *and* IDF rules are in agreement. And I’m not haredi.

    And a technical note to GoldersGreener: the law in Israel speaks of only 2.5 years of compulsory service. The extra 6 months was tacked on because the army was short on personnel. These months are paid for at the career soldiers’ rate and is given to these inductees in demobilization bonuses and the like. If so, reverting to 2.5 years would do more than spread the military burden more equitably; it would save a ton of money.

    And a final swipe at those who wax nostalgic for the Czar and the ghetto because Jews can’t be trusted to observe Torah on their own: ?? ????? ????? ????

    #931455
    Health
    Participant

    Wolf -“Sounds like a question the B’nei Gad and B’nei Reuven could have asked. I wonder what the answer given to them was…”

    Now your true colors come out -you sound just like the rest of the Zionists here.

    Do you know what a Milchemes Mitzva is????

    Fighting in the IDF – some say it’s a Mitzva – some say it’s a Reshus – some say it’s Ossur.

    Those are the Shittos across the board that I know about – from across all Orthodox Jewry – from right to left.

    The only one that I ever heard call it a Milchemes Mitzva was a poster here named Avi-K/benignuman.

    So it’s nice to know you think like him.

    #931456
    benignuman
    Participant

    I am not Avi-K (whoever that is).

    #931457
    Health
    Participant

    yossief -“More Torah = More Protection, is a nice phrase,”

    My heart goes out to anybody who was Nifter/eres young.

    But this is more than “a nice phrase”! The Torah says it quite clearly, even more than once -when once would have been enough, that learning Torah protects against the Tochecha (Holocaust).

    And Not enough learning can bring Holocausts Ch’vs.

    The Torah to me and many others is Not just a storybook -it’s our way of life. Even people like Ben-Gurion understood this and he agreed to – No draft for Charedim.

    How could people like the Mizrachists/MO, who keep Shabbos, not understand as much as him?

    I think the MO community has failed in teaching Torah properly in their communities!

    #931458
    Josh31
    Participant

    A defensive war against enemies whose vision is to wipe your country off the map is always a Milchemes Mitzva and the exemptions in Devarim do not apply there. This is regardless of whether your “King” is a Chizkiyahu or an Achav or a Menashe.

    #931459
    Health
    Participant

    Josh31 -The Torah always says anybody who comes to kill you – Yashkaim V’horgo. This doesn’t make it into a Milchemes Mitzva though, no matter what you say. There are special Dinim to a Milchemes Mitzva which doesn’t apply here in Israel.

    And I’ve said many times if you give the land to the Goyim like to Turkey -you won’t have any more wars. The Zionists had No right to make their country in EY. They should have gone to Uganda!

    #931460
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Jews were subserviant in Eastern Europe and basically did what the masters said, and the Nazis still came.

    Jews were subserviant in Arab countries and there were still pogroms

    #931461
    Health
    Participant

    ZD -“Jews were subserviant in Arab countries and there were still pogroms”

    This could be that when Mohammed tried to make the Jews worship him – not just they didn’t listen, but they mocked him. They should have just ignored him without the mocking. It was after that – that he started with the Jews and the Caliphs after him started codifying laws against Jews. I’m not so clear about the history. But Hashem only punishes for good reasons.

    “Jews were subserviant in Eastern Europe and basically did what the masters said, and the Nazis still came.”

    This is definitely Not True! Almost all the Gedolim say the Klal did bad things and that’s why the Holocaust happened. The Satmar Rebbe zt’l said is was because of the Zionist movement. Others said is was because of the Maskilim/Reform Movement. R’ A. Miller zt’l said it was because of Chillul Shabbos.

    #931462
    About Time
    Participant

    Time to combat the pernicious lies (wrtten by the same bloggers ) once and for all.

    The (Ashkenazi) chareidim have stood on principle while conversely the mizrachi have not had on which to stand.

    [1] However, most of the National Union left the merger shortly after its implementation.

    From its inception the NRP maintained an almost constant number of 12 members of the Israeli Knesset. In 1981 it shrank to 6 members. The reasons were diverse: An overall reduction in its natural voting population; the political moderation of many Orthodox Jews; its turn towards the right-wing; the growing importance of the right-left schism in Israeli politics; and the rise of Orthodox Sephardic parties such as Tami and later Shas.

    The party was unique in that it participated in all the governments of Israel until 1992. During this period it was a centrist party, interested mainly in religious matters and impervious to the left-right divisions of the Israeli public. The longtime cooperation between the Israeli Labour Party and the NRP is sometimes referred to as the historic league (????? ?????????).

    Main principles

    The Fourth Knesset

    The government collapsed when Ben-Gurion resigned on 31 January 1961, over a motion of no-confidence brought by Herut and the General Zionists concerning the Lavon Affair. After Ben-Gurion was unable to form a new government new elections were called. At only one year and nine months, the fourth Knesset is the shortest Knesset term to date.

    The Seventh Knesset

    Golda Meir of the Alignment formed the fifteenth government, a national unity government including Gahal, the National Religious Party, the Independent Liberals, Progress and Development and Cooperation and Brotherhood. There were 24 ministers.

    Gahal resigned from the coalition on 6 August 1970 after the government had decided to adopt the Rogers Plan.

    The seventh Knesset was one of the most stable, with only one new party created (and that itself was virtually a rename of an existing party) and four MKs changing parties.

    The Eighth Knesset

    Golda Meir of the Alignment formed the sixteenth government on 10 March 1974, including the National Religious Party and the Independent Liberals in her coalition, with 22 ministers. Meir resigned on 11 April 1974 after the Agranat Commission had published its interim report on the Yom Kippur War.

    The government resigned on 22 December 1976, after ministers of the National Religious Party were sacked because the party had abstained from voting on a motion of no confidence, which had been brought by Agudat Yisrael over a breach of the Sabbath on an Israeli Air Force base.

    The 15th Knesset

    After winning the Prime Ministerial elections, Ehud Barak formed the 28th government of Israel on 6 July 1999. His coalition included One Israel, Shas, Meretz, Yisrael BaAliyah, the Centre Party, the National Religious Party and United Torah Judaism, and initially had 16 ministers, though the number later rose to 24. Avraham Burg was appointed as Speaker of the Knesset.

    United Torah Judaism left the coalition in September 1999 after a breach of the Sabbath. The government finally collapsed on 10 December 2000 when Barak resigned in the face of the outbreak of the Second Intifada and the Israeli Arab riots of October. Barak called new elections for the position of Prime Minister, which he lost to Ariel Sharon.

    The Sixteenth Knesset

    Ariel Sharon formed the 30th government on 28 February 2003. His coalition initially included just Shinui and the National Union (Israel BaAliya had merged into Likud soon after the election), though the National Religious Party joined the government on 3 March.

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