Israeli Chareidim moving to chutz la'Aretz?

You must be referring to the statements of Gedolei Yisroel that if the tziyonim try to rip the Bnei Torah out of the Beis Medrash, it will be better to live in C”L and learn than in E”Y and not learn.

Regarding your point, in America many Bnei Torah spend their lives in the Beis Medrash. So, yes, it in fact is able to be done.

Do YOU realize, that staying in kollel forever has nothing to do with it?

If you don’t, maybe look into the issue a little more before you comment on it.

If you do, don’t troll.

golfer,

Your comment is entirely irrelevant, hateful, spiteful and totally not to the point. The percentage of chareidim burning dumpsters is negligible.

Please spew your hatred of chareidim elsewhere.

There’s always Uganda.

Do they realize, however, that in chutz la’Aretz they won’t be able to stay in kollel forever as they do in “the evil Zionist Israel”?

You’re kidding right? You can learn in Lakewood forever just fine.

Also, you’re missing half the point. Many of the chareidim would want to work, but they are not willing to go to the army. Observe the American chasidim–who are just the same and share the same rebbes with the Israeli ones. The American chasiddim almost all do work, and the Israeli ones would do the same if they didn’t have to be in the army to be allowed to work.

They don’t avoid the army in order to learn; they learn in order to avoid the army. A little fixing of the army would go a long way to solving the problem.

zahavasdad: In response to your “Unless they have US or EU citizenship they arent going anywhere” – once the government starts arresting hareidim for refusing to serve in the army on any sort of halachic grounds (as opposed to at present where people get arrested for draft evasion and paperwork errors) – any Israeli hareidi gets the status of a person being persecuted because of their religion which makes them a eligible to request asylum. I suspect many countries that dislike Israel might be pleased to have them. Indeed, I would be surprised if the some of the adjacent Arab countries would welcome them in order to “show” to the world that their war is against the “zionists” rather than the “Jews.” Draft refusal means telling the army that you are present and able to serve, and are refusing to do so since the army and the medinah are contrary to Torah. To be taken seriously, anyone making that claim should not have a history of being on the government’s payroll. Given that the hilonim are not idiots, and tend to be very sensitive to international human rights laws (which sometimes protect religious minorities), they will probably make the only penalty for draft-refusers is that you lost the government entitlements (to the same extent on Arab Muslims who also don’t serve on religious grounds). If the government were to raid a Beis Medrash and start seizing students it would be among the stupidest things they ever did, and future historians would probably say that it was the point when a single Palestinian state from the desert to the sea became likely.

There are three distinct issues.

One is Bitul Torah -that would apply even if you are no so frum as to have problems in the army, and totally support zionism.

The second is the “spiritual” danger which is a polite way of saying that army harasses frum soldiers and persecutes them if they are too frum (e.g. gives you a choice between davening with a minyan or having breakfast) with the hope that the soldiers will lower their level of observance and become more normal – this can be mitigated in several ways, including having special “segregated” frum units.

The third is the belief that the state is treff, i.e. there is no halachic basic for the zionists to have seized control from the Arabs and therefore we are the agressors and we have no right to kill the Arabs in defense of what is little better than theft, and certainly there is no basis to be bitul Torah or to put up with harassment in order to help defend the zionist state.

the real issue is control by going to work or joining the army the bochrim are not under control of their rebbes or rabonim who lose the power and income that they control as long as they stay poor unskilled and in their mosdos they have control over them not a question of religion but of naked power

keep the boys poor and they serve the needs of the charaidi religious establishment it is all about money and power

Akuperma, please put aside your paranoid fantasies of raids and arrests. Also, the land wasn’t stolen from the Arabs. It was partitioned by the UN into Jewish and Arab states

Mdd,

However, I think, the Chareidim overpushed their luck there.

I’m not sure what you mean; if you mean that there are too many loafers who aren’t using their time productively, I am sure there are some, but I don’t know how many. I do know what I’ve read about the Chazon Ish’s take on it; he considered those who give undeserved exemptions to be rodfim, because they cast a negative light on the serious learners (IIRC). I believe the same is true for individual loafers, but I wouldn’t call that “the Chareidim”, because it’s not institutional.

You can not just look at it form what is better for a bochur’s learning vantage point.

That’s where we disagree. I can’t overstate the importance of learning in general, and specifically as it relates to the development of b’nei Torah. The very future of klal Yisroel is at stake, and this is the reason for the strong stance of the gedolim, as I understand it. It’s a no compromise issue.

Thank you for speaking up agaist shmoolik’s post. I feel like Ican carry on a normal discussion with you. Although I disagree with you, I do think that you’re trying to be reasonable (as am I, I hope).

Seriosuly would even the Arab countries welcome jews with large families who do not work

exsoldier -“If you go to nachal haredi there are no females on your bases and most people there are also religious.”

And there are No females in boot camp and you Never, ever have to listen to them sing? Right?!?!

So don’t preach about lying when you’re doing the exact same thing.

And btw, have you ever heard of Yahrog V’al Yavor? So enough with this Pikuach Nefesh bit!

Shavuah tov

I might have been a little extreme in my comments but the truth is that the yeshivas do not want to lose the weak students for they will lose the subsidies that they bring they also fear that the better ones too might leave so they must hold on it is sad to see so many young men aimlessly hanging around with foresight the rabbonnim have to find a solution to get them on their feet national service is a real option in making them better Yidden

health: yes, even in boot camp nachal haredi have their own little base slightly separated from the main base. They most certainly are not forced to listen to women sing as they are never in a position where they will be with women. I fail to see what is so hard to understand.

The ridiculous infamous incident where some soldiers were told that they had to listen to women sing was an example of a mountain being made of a mole hill by some idiot on a course for officers. I highly doubt that nachal haredi was involved and you can certainly not judge the army based on such an incident.

As for ya’harog val ya’avor, when the army forces someone to serve idols, commit adultery/incest, kill an innocent person not posing a threat or cause one of the public specific types of relevant chilul haShem, then we will have something to talk about. Until, then, if someone is attacking me or those under my protection I will kill to defend, army or not.

I find it ironic that there are religious jews who are publicaly anti-israel, the country that today represents jews to the whole world, and cause a huge public chilul haShem – something that could perhaps be considered ya’harog val yavor.

I don’t get how did this become a discussion about the “weaker students

Has’nt Rav Shteinman’s position been clarified numerous times?

Don’t many “weaker” students go to Nachal Chareidi because of his directives to do so?

Facts are the chilonim are not going for the “weaker” students ’cause there are already many Roshei Yeshivos that send them to the army they are going for the average Chareidi Kollel Youngerman.

Everyone agrees that national service would be an acceptable alternative to the army.

So why cant those who are “weaker” spend their time doing chessed for the state like working in Hospitals or cooking and feeding the poor or other acceptable national service jobs. Many of them are chessed anyway.

ZD,

Who decides who’s “weaker”?

Also, if charedim who don’t learn all join the ICF (Israeli Culinary Force), there will still be tremendous resentment that the charedim don’t “share the burden” in allowing their sons to put their lives at risk.

Also, there will be too much food left over. Bal Tashchis, you know. 😉

1. If you base the Israeli claim to Eretz Yisrael on the United Nations (rather than on the basis of Torah, which raises many issues since Torah was clearly given in order to facilitate doing mitsvos, not building a secular state), then the United Nations can simply repeal its resolution and pick a different one. In addition, the British claim to Palestine was purely based on conquest, and if the Brits had a right by conquest, all the Arabs have to do is conquer and its there’s pure and simple. Over the last 70 years, international law has evolved to the point that no country can claim a right by virtue of conquest – and you’ll note that no country has added territory since the end of World War II by conquest unless they can assert the people support them.

2. My comments on the army were based on being in a regular (i.e. secular) unit. If the army keeps religious soldiers in separate religious units it will minimize the immediate problems but create a discrimination issue that will become a “time bomb.” Problems include fast days (army rules exempt soldiers from working, but units villify those who don’t work on fast days), davening schedules (soldiers are released for davening rather than davening being part of the schedule), disputes of kashruth and the fact that most kitchen personnel are hiloni, behavior of male and female hiloni soldiers in ways we can not discuss (it was with a good basis that some gedolim compared the army to a “Beis Busha” and discussed with female conscripts were considered to be a “shevuyah”). Note the recent incident where some frum Dati Leumi officer candidates were disqualified from becoming officers because they refuse to listen to women singing (i.e. refuse to be present with naked women). Unless the hilonim agree to have the whole army be run based on the parameters of hareidi society, allowing for some separate “Nahal hiloni” units- there will be a serious problem.

3. “National service” is supported only by religious Jews who want to serve but hold they are prohibited (being female). Unless you recognize full time learning as “national service” , it has no support from the hareidi community except as an alternative to military service for hareidi baal ha-battim who don’t want to serve in the army (an option that has been rejected)

4. The government has occasionally arrested hareidim for not serving, and the hiloni press anticpates that hareidi who refuse to serve in the army will go to prison. Unless the medinah agrees to regard hareidim as religious objectors, with the penalty limited to loss of some government fund (similar to what happens to Israeli Muslims who don’t serve in the army, and no worse), a very serious crisis is brewing.

Many compare Yeshiva to University students (for whatever reason)

Therein lies the fallacy. You admit that you don’t really know why there should be a comparison between university and yeshiva. The answer, of course, is that there isn’t. The rest of your idea therefore completely falls apart.

lesschumras -“Health, the Arabs haven’t controlled the land for nearly 1,000 years. Between the Crusaders, Mamalukes, Ottomans and, finally the British, others controlled it. Why should I care that the Arabs didn’t agree to the partition?”

And Your Point is????

I said Noone gave the land to the Jews – Not England, not the Arabs and Not the League of Nations/UN! So what claim do these Zionists have on the land? They don’t have any except for a religious claim and they have no right to make a religious claim -being they aren’t religious.

waaaaaaah -“Did you read the part where exsoldier said that if you go to nachal haredi, ‘there are no females on the bases’?

Also, I happen to be an ex-soldier myself. And exsoldier’s post is correct.”

exsoldier -“health: yes, even in boot camp nachal haredi have their own little base slightly separated from the main base. They most certainly are not forced to listen to women sing as they are never in a position where they will be with women. I fail to see what is so hard to understand.”

I read your posts about “No women” etc. But whether you mean to lie or just are so blinded by your way of life – I don’t know.

I always research my posts before I post. I found a blog from Frum IDF soldiers that the training he went through – he had to – “roll around with female trainees”. This is his quote, not mine.

The other said they don’t do this anymore – he never claimed though – he didn’t train with them.

“As for ya’harog val ya’avor, when the army forces someone to serve idols, commit adultery/incest, kill an innocent person not posing a threat or cause one of the public specific types of relevant chilul haShem, then we will have something to talk about. Until, then, if someone is attacking me or those under my protection I will kill to defend, army or not.”

I don’t know what kind of Torah teaching you had, but it is defecient. Perhaps you’re a BT or didn’t learn in good Yeshivos, but your Torah knowledge is lacking. The Halacha is clear -Yahrog Val Yavor applies even in Abizrayhu. This means even something as far as women singing or “rolling around with women trainees”, you’d have to give up your life and not do these things.

“I find it ironic that there are religious jews who are publicaly anti-israel, the country that today represents jews to the whole world, and cause a huge public chilul haShem – something that could perhaps be considered ya’harog val yavor.”

Another defeciency in your Torah knowledge. The only things that can be a Chillul Hashem are things that are Not against the Torah. Putting down a Medina that was/is based on Kefira is a Kiddush Hashem, not a Chillul Hashem. Chillul Hashem is Not something against the popularity of something -it’s something against Hashem and his Torah.

A note to the folks who mis-transliterate ????? as “yaharog”: I hope you’re grammar-challenged, because otherwise you’ve recommended killing people over the issues discussed here….