January 24, 2013 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #607935
In connection with the ongoing discussion about the Israeli draft, I heard suggestions/threats by Israeli Chareidim to move to chutz la’Aretz. Do they realize, however, that in chutz la’Aretz they won’t be able to stay in kollel forever as they do in “the evil Zionist Israel”?January 24, 2013 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #942114ConfuciousMember
You must be referring to the statements of Gedolei Yisroel that if the tziyonim try to rip the Bnei Torah out of the Beis Medrash, it will be better to live in C”L and learn than in E”Y and not learn.
Regarding your point, in America many Bnei Torah spend their lives in the Beis Medrash. So, yes, it in fact is able to be done.January 24, 2013 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #942115
It’s unlikely to happen since Eretz Yisrael has lower living costs (especially if you avoid the big cities) unless the government starts actively rounding up all hareidim as draft dodgers or accessories, and even then I’ld suspect the Palestinians will get clever and invite some yeshivos to move into Area A. If the yeshiovos and seminaries catering to foreigners start to close, that will take many thousands of jobs with them, and if the government starts raiding frum institutions to arrest people it will scare off foreign students (or rather, scare off their parents).January 24, 2013 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #942116Shraga18Participant
Do YOU realize, that staying in kollel forever has nothing to do with it?
If you don’t, maybe look into the issue a little more before you comment on it.
If you do, don’t troll.January 24, 2013 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #942117golferParticipant
I’m curious what will happen when they try burning dumpsters and calling the police in chutz la’aretz Nazis.
If they are planning to move, their chutz la’aretz brethren might want to help them brush up on their social skills before they board their Delta flights.January 24, 2013 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #942118Shraga18Participant
Your comment is entirely irrelevant, hateful, spiteful and totally not to the point. The percentage of chareidim burning dumpsters is negligible.
Please spew your hatred of chareidim elsewhere.January 24, 2013 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #942119young menMember
would any nation accept them from what I know its very hard these says to move to any country even the us.January 24, 2013 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #942120Torah613TorahParticipant
There’s always Uganda.January 24, 2013 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #942121
Unless they have US or EU citizenship they arent going anywhereJanuary 24, 2013 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #942122popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Do they realize, however, that in chutz la’Aretz they won’t be able to stay in kollel forever as they do in “the evil Zionist Israel”?
You’re kidding right? You can learn in Lakewood forever just fine.
Also, you’re missing half the point. Many of the chareidim would want to work, but they are not willing to go to the army. Observe the American chasidim–who are just the same and share the same rebbes with the Israeli ones. The American chasiddim almost all do work, and the Israeli ones would do the same if they didn’t have to be in the army to be allowed to work.
They don’t avoid the army in order to learn; they learn in order to avoid the army. A little fixing of the army would go a long way to solving the problem.January 25, 2013 3:58 am at 3:58 am #942123
PBA, in the US some yichidim are able to do it. Certainly, not good enough for the E.Y. Litvaks who do not hold of working.January 25, 2013 4:06 am at 4:06 am #942124
PBA, the reason why I am saying what I’m saying is as follows. What I read in the news about drafting the Chareidim is that the Gedolim and the Chareidi politicians say it’s bittul Torah — not that it’s a spiritual danger to go to the army. THey do not stam azoy protest Nachal Chareidi. One of the politicians spoke about fighting for their “right to learn”! Many of them are extreme machmirim on staying in learning davka. I used to think like you until I found out more about what is going on there.January 25, 2013 4:12 am at 4:12 am #942125
mdd: Don’t believe everything you read in the news.
The spiritual danger of the army is certainly one of the main reasons the gedolim oppose joining.January 25, 2013 4:48 am at 4:48 am #942126
zahavasdad: In response to your “Unless they have US or EU citizenship they arent going anywhere” – once the government starts arresting hareidim for refusing to serve in the army on any sort of halachic grounds (as opposed to at present where people get arrested for draft evasion and paperwork errors) – any Israeli hareidi gets the status of a person being persecuted because of their religion which makes them a eligible to request asylum. I suspect many countries that dislike Israel might be pleased to have them. Indeed, I would be surprised if the some of the adjacent Arab countries would welcome them in order to “show” to the world that their war is against the “zionists” rather than the “Jews.” Draft refusal means telling the army that you are present and able to serve, and are refusing to do so since the army and the medinah are contrary to Torah. To be taken seriously, anyone making that claim should not have a history of being on the government’s payroll. Given that the hilonim are not idiots, and tend to be very sensitive to international human rights laws (which sometimes protect religious minorities), they will probably make the only penalty for draft-refusers is that you lost the government entitlements (to the same extent on Arab Muslims who also don’t serve on religious grounds). If the government were to raid a Beis Medrash and start seizing students it would be among the stupidest things they ever did, and future historians would probably say that it was the point when a single Palestinian state from the desert to the sea became likely.January 25, 2013 4:52 am at 4:52 am #942127
Mdd, it is about bittul Torah, and not just about not being able to learn forever. Even in chu”l, those who can, learn full time from mesivta (ad v’lo ad bichlal in most cases) until several years after marriage. Those very years, the ones in which someone is able to focus on their learning with some menuchas hanefesh and no or little burden of parnassah, are the ones which would be spent in the army.
Army service would be a hindrance to the typical American yeshiva bachur as much as it would to one from E.Y.
Aside from the spiritual danger (which is especially acute in those days of youth), they want to take away those ikar years of learning.
Yes, as a result of the way the system is set up, they tend to learn longer than in chu”l. Rav Mordechai Zuckerman, zt”l, used to refer to these long term learners as “Ben Gurion’s talmidei chachomim”. And yes, therefore there’s an unhealthy negative attitude, for some, to working. But that’s primarily a product of potential army duty which forces the average amount of years in kollel to increase.
If instead of drafting them into the army, they would allow them to work, many more would, but you wouldn’t hear this outcry.January 25, 2013 5:06 am at 5:06 am #942128
There are three distinct issues.
One is Bitul Torah -that would apply even if you are no so frum as to have problems in the army, and totally support zionism.
The second is the “spiritual” danger which is a polite way of saying that army harasses frum soldiers and persecutes them if they are too frum (e.g. gives you a choice between davening with a minyan or having breakfast) with the hope that the soldiers will lower their level of observance and become more normal – this can be mitigated in several ways, including having special “segregated” frum units.
The third is the belief that the state is treff, i.e. there is no halachic basic for the zionists to have seized control from the Arabs and therefore we are the agressors and we have no right to kill the Arabs in defense of what is little better than theft, and certainly there is no basis to be bitul Torah or to put up with harassment in order to help defend the zionist state.January 25, 2013 8:17 am at 8:17 am #942129
Da’as Yochid, I, to a degree, hear what you are saying. However, I think, the Chareidim overpushed their luck there. THey could have gotten better terms from the frei if they acted differently. Plus, whoever learns there-18 or 50-is able to so only because the frei pay their families bills. If they did not, all those 18-year olds would have to go get a job. You can not just look at it form what is better for a bochur’s learning vantage point.
Akuperma, stop already! Most Chareidim are not NK!!January 25, 2013 9:26 am at 9:26 am #942130
the real issue is control by going to work or joining the army the bochrim are not under control of their rebbes or rabonim who lose the power and income that they control as long as they stay poor unskilled and in their mosdos they have control over them not a question of religion but of naked power
keep the boys poor and they serve the needs of the charaidi religious establishment it is all about money and powerJanuary 25, 2013 10:56 am at 10:56 am #942131exsoldierMember
@akuperma: I don’t know what nonsense you have been told about the army giving people choices between praying and having breakfast. I was actually in the army and it is the complete opposite. The seculars respect religious people and the norm is that whilst they do the morning cleanup,the religious soldiers go and daven with a minyan.
If you go to nachal haredi there are no females on your bases and most people there are also religious.
Don’t spread lies about how the army treats religious people; I seem to remember that lying is against the halacha. Before you start accusing organisations of creating ‘spiritual dangers’ perhaps you should start worrying about yourself.
Also, because according to you the state is ‘treif’, jews shouldn’t defend themselves against non jews? What torah do you follow? Mine says pikuach nefesh trumps all; even if we are in the wrong, the situation today is that we need to defend ourselves against the arabs.
By the way, you may not follow it but there is halachic justification; the ramban clearly states that we have a constant obligation to fight for israel; don’t hold with it or do, but don’t say there is no halachic support.January 25, 2013 11:08 am at 11:08 am #942132lesschumrasParticipant
Akuperma, please put aside your paranoid fantasies of raids and arrests. Also, the land wasn’t stolen from the Arabs. It was partitioned by the UN into Jewish and Arab statesJanuary 25, 2013 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #942133adamsParticipant
You can also become more spiritual and be frum in the Army,when I was in I saw many people become BT. There is a ignorant prejudice against all things Israel and Zionist that i find sickening to see on this and other sites. Often i think they are just kidding around but apparently not.
SOme of the ideas expressed here about pritzus are also off the mark. the women serve because they have the brains to do the work needed. as far as drafting Chareidim, the army needs more people. in my time in the army in the 1980’s you could see that they didn’t need everyone, that is, many people had little to do.
But now, if they feel the situation is different, we should encourage those who are not learning anyway to join up.January 25, 2013 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #942134
Shmoolik1, what you said is totally not true — motzei shem ra.January 25, 2013 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #942135
I do not want to be motzei shem ra. on anyperson or institution but what are the many non students doing in the yeshivos besides smoking and just hanging around why do they not serve or G-d forbid get a jobJanuary 25, 2013 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #942136
However, I think, the Chareidim overpushed their luck there.
I’m not sure what you mean; if you mean that there are too many loafers who aren’t using their time productively, I am sure there are some, but I don’t know how many. I do know what I’ve read about the Chazon Ish’s take on it; he considered those who give undeserved exemptions to be rodfim, because they cast a negative light on the serious learners (IIRC). I believe the same is true for individual loafers, but I wouldn’t call that “the Chareidim”, because it’s not institutional.
You can not just look at it form what is better for a bochur’s learning vantage point.
That’s where we disagree. I can’t overstate the importance of learning in general, and specifically as it relates to the development of b’nei Torah. The very future of klal Yisroel is at stake, and this is the reason for the strong stance of the gedolim, as I understand it. It’s a no compromise issue.
Thank you for speaking up agaist shmoolik’s post. I feel like Ican carry on a normal discussion with you. Although I disagree with you, I do think that you’re trying to be reasonable (as am I, I hope).January 25, 2013 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #942137
I do not want to be motzei shem ra. on anyperson or institution
Then why did you?
but what are the many non students doing in the yeshivos besides smoking and just hanging around why do they not serve or G-d forbid get a job
Whether or not they should serve is a debate among the gedolim (nachal chareidi). But they obviously can’t get a job. What they should be doing is learning. Their bittul Torah is not just bittul Torah, it’s a chillul Hashem. But this is an individual’s shortcoming, it’s not institutional.January 25, 2013 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #942138
Seriosuly would even the Arab countries welcome jews with large families who do not workJanuary 25, 2013 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #942139
If there might be some batlanim, it does not mean that the Chareidi Rabbonim have the sinister motivations you alleged.I have big kashos on them but your accusations are a different matter.January 25, 2013 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #942140
exsoldier -“If you go to nachal haredi there are no females on your bases and most people there are also religious.”
And there are No females in boot camp and you Never, ever have to listen to them sing? Right?!?!
So don’t preach about lying when you’re doing the exact same thing.
And btw, have you ever heard of Yahrog V’al Yavor? So enough with this Pikuach Nefesh bit!January 25, 2013 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #942141
lesschumras -“It was partitioned by the UN into Jewish and Arab states”
If you’re the least bit interested in the truth – whatever the League of Nations and then later the UN said or did – it was never binding and the arabs never accepted it. I dunno if the Zionists stole it, – so I don’t really agree with that guy, but noone actually gave it to them. The English packed out and the Zionists saw the Oppurtunity and seized it. So noone gave it to them. The only claim to the land is a religous one. Since they love to Shmad Frum people – how can they make claims on religion?
So to all you Zionists here, why in the world should the Charedim go and fight for your country, that they were never interested in having, because you said so? Esp. since you agreed for our backing of the creation of the Medina – that you wouldn’t force us into the army?!?!January 25, 2013 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #942142
I do agree about the very great importance of Limud HaTorah. The reason I consider the other angle is to make sure there is no Chilul HaShem involved.
By overpushing their luck I mean the fact that the Israeli Chareidim conduct themselves like they own the place (E. Yisroel),defying the frei, speaking with tremenedous azus to them, making machos when it is a bad idea (“yotze s’charo be’chefseido”). Be’kitzur, they got the frei mad, real mad.January 25, 2013 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #942143lesschumrasParticipant
Health, the Arabs haven’t controlled the land for nearly 1,000 years. Between the Crusaders, Mamalukes, Ottomans and, finally the British, others controlled it. Why should I care that the Arabs didn’t agree to the partition?January 26, 2013 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #942144
I might have been a little extreme in my comments but the truth is that the yeshivas do not want to lose the weak students for they will lose the subsidies that they bring they also fear that the better ones too might leave so they must hold on it is sad to see so many young men aimlessly hanging around with foresight the rabbonnim have to find a solution to get them on their feet national service is a real option in making them better YiddenJanuary 26, 2013 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #942145waaaaaaahMember
exsoldier -“If you go to nachal haredi there are no females on your bases and most people there are also religious.”
Health – “And there are No females in boot camp and you Never, ever have to listen to them sing? Right?!?!
So don’t preach about lying when you’re doing the exact same thing.
And btw, have you ever heard of Yahrog V’al Yavor? So enough with this Pikuach Nefesh bit!”
Did you read the part where exsoldier said that if you go to nachal haredi, ‘there are no females on the bases’?
Also, I happen to be an ex-soldier myself. And exsoldier’s post is correct.January 27, 2013 2:42 am at 2:42 am #942146exsoldierMember
health: yes, even in boot camp nachal haredi have their own little base slightly separated from the main base. They most certainly are not forced to listen to women sing as they are never in a position where they will be with women. I fail to see what is so hard to understand.
The ridiculous infamous incident where some soldiers were told that they had to listen to women sing was an example of a mountain being made of a mole hill by some idiot on a course for officers. I highly doubt that nachal haredi was involved and you can certainly not judge the army based on such an incident.
As for ya’harog val ya’avor, when the army forces someone to serve idols, commit adultery/incest, kill an innocent person not posing a threat or cause one of the public specific types of relevant chilul haShem, then we will have something to talk about. Until, then, if someone is attacking me or those under my protection I will kill to defend, army or not.
I find it ironic that there are religious jews who are publicaly anti-israel, the country that today represents jews to the whole world, and cause a huge public chilul haShem – something that could perhaps be considered ya’harog val yavor.January 27, 2013 4:24 am at 4:24 am #942147
Shmoolik, it is all your conjectures without proofs and they are motzi shem ra. I think those very frum Roshei Yeshivah and Rebbes mean le’shem Shomaim. It is just that I have big kashos on them.January 27, 2013 5:05 am at 5:05 am #942148
I don’t get how did this become a discussion about the “weaker students
Has’nt Rav Shteinman’s position been clarified numerous times?
Don’t many “weaker” students go to Nachal Chareidi because of his directives to do so?
Facts are the chilonim are not going for the “weaker” students ’cause there are already many Roshei Yeshivos that send them to the army they are going for the average Chareidi Kollel Youngerman.January 27, 2013 5:40 am at 5:40 am #942149Loyal JewMember
Exsoldier, waaah and the rest, the gedolim established the facts about the army as about all matters. There are other forums where opinions against the gedolim can be voiced r”l. This forum isn’t one of them.January 27, 2013 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #942150
Everyone agrees that national service would be an acceptable alternative to the army.
So why cant those who are “weaker” spend their time doing chessed for the state like working in Hospitals or cooking and feeding the poor or other acceptable national service jobs. Many of them are chessed anyway.January 27, 2013 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #942151147Participant
“the evil Zionist Israel”
mdd:- How dare you utilize such a “Loshon Bizoyon” in this coffee room.
Such awful phrases and appellations have no place on this website. Last Sunday was exactly 1/2 year from Tisha b’Ov, and with such awful appellations, there will be many more Tisha b’Ov’s haShem YeRachem.January 27, 2013 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #942152
Who decides who’s “weaker”?
Also, if charedim who don’t learn all join the ICF (Israeli Culinary Force), there will still be tremendous resentment that the charedim don’t “share the burden” in allowing their sons to put their lives at risk.
Also, there will be too much food left over. Bal Tashchis, you know. 😉January 27, 2013 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #942153
I don’t get it .
There are already tens of thousands of Chareidim taking part in Chesed Ventures on a completley volunteer basis.
Hatolah, Zaka, Yad Sarah, Bikur Cholim, Va’ad HaRabanim and more.
So if the entire problem is that the Chilonim simply want the Chareidim to be “Nosah B’Ol” and take part in caring for others what is the problem?
The Chilonim should learn from the Chareim about Chesed!January 27, 2013 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #942154
1. If you base the Israeli claim to Eretz Yisrael on the United Nations (rather than on the basis of Torah, which raises many issues since Torah was clearly given in order to facilitate doing mitsvos, not building a secular state), then the United Nations can simply repeal its resolution and pick a different one. In addition, the British claim to Palestine was purely based on conquest, and if the Brits had a right by conquest, all the Arabs have to do is conquer and its there’s pure and simple. Over the last 70 years, international law has evolved to the point that no country can claim a right by virtue of conquest – and you’ll note that no country has added territory since the end of World War II by conquest unless they can assert the people support them.
2. My comments on the army were based on being in a regular (i.e. secular) unit. If the army keeps religious soldiers in separate religious units it will minimize the immediate problems but create a discrimination issue that will become a “time bomb.” Problems include fast days (army rules exempt soldiers from working, but units villify those who don’t work on fast days), davening schedules (soldiers are released for davening rather than davening being part of the schedule), disputes of kashruth and the fact that most kitchen personnel are hiloni, behavior of male and female hiloni soldiers in ways we can not discuss (it was with a good basis that some gedolim compared the army to a “Beis Busha” and discussed with female conscripts were considered to be a “shevuyah”). Note the recent incident where some frum Dati Leumi officer candidates were disqualified from becoming officers because they refuse to listen to women singing (i.e. refuse to be present with naked women). Unless the hilonim agree to have the whole army be run based on the parameters of hareidi society, allowing for some separate “Nahal hiloni” units- there will be a serious problem.
3. “National service” is supported only by religious Jews who want to serve but hold they are prohibited (being female). Unless you recognize full time learning as “national service” , it has no support from the hareidi community except as an alternative to military service for hareidi baal ha-battim who don’t want to serve in the army (an option that has been rejected)
4. The government has occasionally arrested hareidim for not serving, and the hiloni press anticpates that hareidi who refuse to serve in the army will go to prison. Unless the medinah agrees to regard hareidim as religious objectors, with the penalty limited to loss of some government fund (similar to what happens to Israeli Muslims who don’t serve in the army, and no worse), a very serious crisis is brewing.January 27, 2013 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #942155
Hatolah, Zaka, Yad Sarah, Bikur Cholim, Va’ad HaRabanim and more.
And yes this is a place to start, Most Israelis (Maybe there are some diehards who feel different) admire Zaka and are willing to accept Zaka volounteerism as service.
As far as weaker, Many compare Yeshiva to University students (for whatever reason) and say if students can learn in University they can learn in Yeshiva. In Universities only the best of the best remain after 4-5 years, Perhaps 5% of university students remain “Permanent students”
Let the yeshivas decide that 5-10% of the learners are the best, I am sure the Roshei Yeshivas know who are the real learners and who are the Not so good learnersJanuary 27, 2013 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #942156
Many compare Yeshiva to University students (for whatever reason)
Therein lies the fallacy. You admit that you don’t really know why there should be a comparison between university and yeshiva. The answer, of course, is that there isn’t. The rest of your idea therefore completely falls apart.January 27, 2013 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #942158takahmamashParticipant
Note the recent incident where some frum Dati Leumi officer candidates were disqualified from becoming officers because they refuse to listen to women singing (i.e. refuse to be present with naked women).
Where does naked women figure into this? What the heck are you talking about?January 27, 2013 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #942159
lesschumras -“Health, the Arabs haven’t controlled the land for nearly 1,000 years. Between the Crusaders, Mamalukes, Ottomans and, finally the British, others controlled it. Why should I care that the Arabs didn’t agree to the partition?”
And Your Point is????
I said Noone gave the land to the Jews – Not England, not the Arabs and Not the League of Nations/UN! So what claim do these Zionists have on the land? They don’t have any except for a religious claim and they have no right to make a religious claim -being they aren’t religious.January 27, 2013 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #942160
I believe akuperma is referring to the fact that kol b’isha ERVAH.January 27, 2013 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #942161
waaaaaaah -“Did you read the part where exsoldier said that if you go to nachal haredi, ‘there are no females on the bases’?
Also, I happen to be an ex-soldier myself. And exsoldier’s post is correct.”
exsoldier -“health: yes, even in boot camp nachal haredi have their own little base slightly separated from the main base. They most certainly are not forced to listen to women sing as they are never in a position where they will be with women. I fail to see what is so hard to understand.”
I read your posts about “No women” etc. But whether you mean to lie or just are so blinded by your way of life – I don’t know.
I always research my posts before I post. I found a blog from Frum IDF soldiers that the training he went through – he had to – “roll around with female trainees”. This is his quote, not mine.
The other said they don’t do this anymore – he never claimed though – he didn’t train with them.
“As for ya’harog val ya’avor, when the army forces someone to serve idols, commit adultery/incest, kill an innocent person not posing a threat or cause one of the public specific types of relevant chilul haShem, then we will have something to talk about. Until, then, if someone is attacking me or those under my protection I will kill to defend, army or not.”
I don’t know what kind of Torah teaching you had, but it is defecient. Perhaps you’re a BT or didn’t learn in good Yeshivos, but your Torah knowledge is lacking. The Halacha is clear -Yahrog Val Yavor applies even in Abizrayhu. This means even something as far as women singing or “rolling around with women trainees”, you’d have to give up your life and not do these things.
“I find it ironic that there are religious jews who are publicaly anti-israel, the country that today represents jews to the whole world, and cause a huge public chilul haShem – something that could perhaps be considered ya’harog val yavor.”
Another defeciency in your Torah knowledge. The only things that can be a Chillul Hashem are things that are Not against the Torah. Putting down a Medina that was/is based on Kefira is a Kiddush Hashem, not a Chillul Hashem. Chillul Hashem is Not something against the popularity of something -it’s something against Hashem and his Torah.January 27, 2013 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #942163
I think you missed my point.
These organazations already exist.
This Chesed already exists.
If all the Chilonim want is that the Chareidim do these things then why is there any fight in the first place?
It’s already being done!January 28, 2013 12:12 pm at 12:12 pm #942164NaftushMember
A note to the folks who mis-transliterate ????? as “yaharog”: I hope you’re grammar-challenged, because otherwise you’ve recommended killing people over the issues discussed here….
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