Israeli flag flown at Ponavez? Why?

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  • This topic contains 33 replies, has 27 voices, and was last updated by  mik5 2 years ago.
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  • #596806

    jewishness
    Participant

    Israeli Independence Day: The Israeli Flag At Ponavez

    What is behind that? Are they not against the whole idea? Are they makir tov? What was Rabbi Shachs zl thoughts on this?

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=91979

    #945190

    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    requirement to get government funding

    #945191

    msseeker
    Member
    #945192

    netazar
    Participant

    Rav Wein quotes Rav Kahaneman, “Rabbi

    Yosef Kahaneman, the Ponevezher Rav, told me that he flew

    the Israeli flag from the roof of his yeshivah building in Bnei

    locals complained about this, he

    answered them with the following: ‘I

    flew the Lithuanian flag on the roof of

    my yeshivah in Ponevezh on Lithuanian

    Independence Day. My friends, it is no

    worse here.'” http://www.ou.org/pdf/ja/5767/summer67/30_32_33.pdf

    #945193

    doodle jump
    Participant

    I once heard that it’s the law to put up the flag on the highest point in the city.

    #945194

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Why SHOULDN’T they?

    #945195

    Pac-Man
    Member

    It’s a well known story that msseeker mentioned. The R”Y said he would hire protestors to protest the State, if the protesters hadn’t come on their own.

    #945196

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Urban legends usually are well known.

    #945197

    Pac-Man
    Member

    If you don’t like what the R”Y said, it doesn’t become a legend, urban or otherwise.

    #945198

    yoyo56
    Member

    im so confused one minute they hang up the flag the next they burn it could someone plz explain

    #945199

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Pac Man, I don’t have to believe every urban legend that makes claims in the name of Rav Shach. If you choose to believe it, that’s your business.

    #945200

    aries2756
    Participant

    Is anyone here implying that the Rosh Yeshiva himself told his own students to go out and protest the fact that he himself instructed that the flag be flown?????

    #945201

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    bump

    #945202

    midwesterner
    Participant

    Rav Shach most likely never instructed the flag to be flown. While he was the biggest personality there for a while, he was never the boss in an administrative sense. The decision to fly the flag must surely have come from someone at the business administrative department, meaning someone named Kahaneman, depending on which generation you’re talking about.

    #945203

    truthsharer
    Member

    It’s from the previous Rosh Yeshiva.

    As in most things, people from the prior generation were not as kannoisdikke as this generation.

    #945204

    yichusdik
    Participant

    From Last year’s Israelnationalnews:

    “The hareidi-religious community in Israel largely abstains from Independence Day celebrations. However, this year as every year, the Ponevezh Yeshiva in Bnei Brak, a large and respected institution, marked the day by raising the Israeli flag.

    Several years ago some students at the yeshiva tried to take down the flag, but it was quickly put back up by staff. The yeshiva is often targeted on Independence Day by a handful of anti-Zionist protesters, some of whom burn Israeli flags in an attempt to provoke a riot.”

    And this from the Jerusalem post in 2006

    “In the heart of Bnei Brak, on the roof of Ponevezh Yeshiva, the bastion of haredi intellectualism, flew this Independence Day, as it has flown every Independence Day for as long as anyone can remember, the ultimate symbol of Zionism: the flag of Israel. An anathema to large segments of haredi Judaism, the nation’s blue and white banner represents all that is misguided in Zionism: The hubris of trying to end exile without waiting for God, the impudence of returning to God’s Holy Land without bothering to adhere to His commandments, and the aping of the nations of the world and all their goyish grandeur. Nevertheless, Yosef Shlomo Kahaneman, former rabbi of the Lithuanian town of Ponevezh who lost his wife and son in the Holocaust, stubbornly insisted on flying the flag after he established the Yeshiva over 50 years ago. “Nobody ever suspected Rabbi Kahaneman of being a Zionist,” said an anonymous longtime student of Ponevezh, which is considered the Harvard or Cambridge of the yeshiva world. “As a Holocaust survivor he had certain sentiments towards the state and its institutions – never its leadership. It was his way of showing gratitude that there was a place for the Jews of the world, a place that supported yeshivot and Torah learning.” However, not everyone in Bnei Brak agrees with Kahaneman’s sentiments toward the state. That’s why two maintenance men, immigrants from the Former Soviet Union, take a break from their regular work at the yeshiva and are paid extra to stand on the roof guarding the flag. “In the past some of the more zealous students at Ponevezh have tried to climb onto the roof and tear the flag down,” said the Ponevezh Yeshiva veteran. Neturei Karta, an ultra Orthodox, rabidly anti-Zionist sect loosely connected with Satmar Hassidism regularly demonstrated against the flag flying. But Ponevezh students said they have not staged protests for close to a decade. “Today most people are indifferent to the flag and what it symbolizes,” said a Ponevezh student. “Guys respect Kahaneman’s decision. “Every year about this time there are few guys that arouse the issue, but the discussion dies out pretty quickly.”

    #945205

    besalel
    Participant

    I have read material written by Rav Kahaneman in which he calls, in plain hebrew, black and white, the founding of the Jewish state as the beginning of the coming of moshiach. suggestions that rav shach did not approve or he was coerced into flying the flag is laughable. the idea that the government requires it is simply a lie.

    #945206

    raul24
    Member

    He never said any such thing.

    #945207

    truthsharer
    Member

    He did.

    He also said that people shouldn’t believe everything they read on the internet.

    #945208

    droish
    Member

    I don’t believe he said it. And posting on the net a claim he did, makes it no more believable.

    #945209

    akuperma
    Participant

    So will they be flying the Israeli flag in 2013? A lot has happened. Based on the Rosh Yeshiva’s public comments, it seems they moved from being zionist “fellow travellers” to becoming “mamash” hareidim.

    #945210

    being a chareid ledvar hashem shouldn’t absolve one from hakaras hatov. Ponevezh is alive and well today because of the incredible resurgence of frum life in Israel after the tragedy of the holocaust. Kollel students get stipends, and are allowed to learn Torah in relative peace. There are no pogroms and kosher food is easy to acquire.

    Despite all the complaining, chareidi life in Israel is pretty good compared to life in Europe. Yes, the gedolim in the alte heim are far above today’s rabbis, but we have it pretty good! Be grateful.

    #945211

    besalel
    Participant

    i am staring at a quote that says exactly that by Rabbi Yechezkel Levenstein on page pey hey of the ponovich hagadah.

    #945212

    simcha613
    Participant

    I always understood it as a symbol of hakaras hatov. The medinah, despite its many problems, has been HKB”H’s tool to bring Jews and Torah back to Eretz Yisroel, the likes of which have not been seen since the fall of Beitar. Just like we show hakaras hatov to other countries despite their problems (like USA on July 4 and [as the Ponavitzher Rav supposedly said] Lithuania on their independence day), we should show hakras hatov to the medinah. I’m not denying the medinah has been the source of some bad, but since when are bad things that people do an excuse to not recognize and show hakaras hatov for the good things they do?

    #945213

    charliehall
    Participant

    “some of whom burn Israeli flags”

    Truly disgusting.

    #945214

    HaKatan
    Participant

    It was purely political, not ch”v an endorsement of Zionism.

    #945215

    147
    Participant

    Kol haKovod.

    We must be Makir Tov to Medinat Israel for having opened their doors to Jewish Stateless people.

    I am a very proud Jew, and very proud of our wonderful country Eretz Yisroel. I have already been there thrice in the last 1&1/2 years alone, and cannot wait to be back in Israel. Israel is such a wonderful place. Am Yisroel Chai.

    #945216

    Silly people. It’s connected to a generator – wind operated. That’s all.

    #945217

    “We must be Makir Tov to Medinat Israel for having opened their doors to Jewish Stateless people.”

    Yeah, life is real rough for all the “stateless” Jews in America.

    #945218

    truthsharer
    Member

    In 2013 indeed, life isn’t too rough in the USA.

    #945219

    good_point
    Member

    In former MK Rabbi Shlomo Lorencz’s book he writes that Rabbi Kahaneman was approached and asked to join the newly founded Israeli Knesset – he had been a famous member of the Lithuanian Sejm in Europe – yet he declined. When asked why he responded that he was not wealthy enough. He explained that if one hears kefira he is required to tear kria and since joining the Knesset would expose him to kefira on a regular basis he would be forced to be constantly tearing kria and could not afford the numerous changes of clothing this would require. Although his ahavas yisroel was legendary and perhaps he did feel hakaras hatov to the medina he was by no means a Zionist nor did he view the Israeli government in the same light as he viewed the Lithuanian government.

    #945220

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    good-point: Shlomo Lorencz is the last one to writer the truth. He was a self-serving politicna- like all others.

    #945221

    akuperma
    Participant

    Nu? Did anybody check to see if they flew the Israeli/Zionist flag this year (2013)???????

    #1282636

    mik5
    Participant

    According to Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro:

    Maran Rav Schach, the saintly gadol hador, explained to his Talmidim who would constantly ask about the accursed Zionist flag. It was a concession of the Ponivicher Rav in order to solicit money from the government. Read Rav Schach’s Michtavim UMaamarim about Zionism, religious or otherwise – he berates it. He was the Rosh Yeshiva of Ponovich while that flag was hanging there and he was clearly extremely anti-zionist. Clearly, you cannot judge the Hashkofos of the Rabbonom in that building by the flag that was on the roof – they said so many times themselves. That flag was a political expedience, not a political statement.

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