August 16, 2020 11:11 am at 11:11 am #1892466
this was originally going to be a reply to Charlie5
hall, but since I keep seeing commenters condemning trump for not doing anything about corona, I made it its own thread.
anyone who’s scared of corona can and may lock themselves up, wear a mask, or do anything else, even though trump didn’t mandate it. there’s no comparison to bush (correcting 1’s dumb op) failing to predict 9/11 (if it was his fault). government is responsible for security, not telling citizens how to be safe. whereas corona laws are not as stupid as seatbelt laws, and maybe doesn’t mean ‘nannying” it certainly isn’t a sign of poor governing.
parenthetically, as far as the bipartisan fight goes, I’m curious how many deaths resulted from legalizing marijuana and how that compares to corona.
further parenthetical, causing undue fear about corona led to countless deaths. example: all patients who died because doctors were too scared to get close to them. and banned family from coming to help. etc.August 16, 2020 1:38 pm at 1:38 pm #1892594CTLAWYERParticipant
YOU GOT THAT WRONG…..
“”We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of …”
Preamble to the Constitution if the USA…….promote the GENERAL WELFARE, insure DOMESTIC TRANQUILITY, does mean keep us safe, from all enemies, foreign and domestic…this includes infection, pandemic, cyber attacks, not just people shooting guns or dropping bombs.August 16, 2020 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #1892593GadolhadorahParticipant
No one has blamed Trump for the virus or suggested that the large percentage of deaths could have been avoided had he acted differently. We are not an authoritarian country whose political system would have tolerated a complete China-type lockdown. However, even Trump’s own advisors acknowledge that a stronger initial response at the NATIONAL level in terms of closures of high-risk activities, immediate invocation of the DPA to coordinate production and distribution of PPE, setting an example by having the President and his team wear masks and practice social distancing etc. would have reduce the numbers of those infected and the death rate. Instead, the non-stop “happy talk” of “the virus will just disappear” etc. and boasting about not wearing a mask and mocking those who did, organizing indoor and outdoor rallies contrary to his own Task Force advice and pushing to “reopen” even when CDC guidelines on reopening have not been met has further polarized Americans and caused more deaths. Its not just Trump. Cuomo’s stupid guidelines on moving covid victims back to nursing homes from hospitals and other governors who tried to imitate the Trumpkopf also share the blame. The country could have done much better than it has.August 16, 2020 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #18926011Participant
Ctl democrat mayors aren’t even capable of keeping us safe from guns. Look at NYC and Chicago.August 16, 2020 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #1892606
Trump’s own words from January 22 until March 13 when he finally called it a national emergency.
January 22: “We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. It’s going to be just fine.”
February 2: “We pretty much shut it down coming in from China.”
February 24: “The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA… Stock Market starting to look very good to me!”
February 25: “CDC and my Administration are doing a GREAT job of handling Coronavirus.”
February 25: “I think that’s a problem that’s going to go away… They have studied it. They know very much. In fact, we’re very close to a vaccine.”
February 26: “The 15 (cases in the US) within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero.”
February 26: “We’re going very substantially down, not up.”
February 27: “One day it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.”
February 28: “Now the democrats are politicizing the coronavirus, you know that right? They’re politicizing it…they have no clue…they dont have any clue…this is their new hoax.”
February 28: “We’re ordering a lot of supplies. We’re ordering a lot of, uh, elements that frankly we wouldn’t be ordering unless it was something like this. But we’re ordering a lot of different elements of medical.”
March 2: “You take a solid flu vaccine, you don’t think that could have an impact, or much of an impact, on corona?”
March 2: “A lot of things are happening, a lot of very exciting things are happening and they’re happening very rapidly.”
March 4: “If we have thousands or hundreds of thousands of people that get better just by, you know, sitting around and even going to work — some of them go to work, but they get better.”
March 5: “I NEVER said people that are feeling sick should go to work.”
March 5: “The United States… has, as of now, only 129 cases… and 11 deaths. We are working very hard to keep these numbers as low as possible!”
March 6: “I think we’re doing a really good job in this country at keeping it down… a tremendous job at keeping it down.”
March 6: “Anybody right now, and yesterday, anybody that needs a test gets a test. They’re there. And the tests are beautiful…. the tests are all perfect like the letter was perfect. The transcription was perfect. Right? This was not as perfect as that but pretty good.”
March 6: “I like this stuff. I really get it. People are surprised that I understand it… Every one of these doctors said, ‘How do you know so much about this?’ Maybe I have a natural ability. Maybe I should have done that instead of running for president.”
March 6: “I don’t need to have the numbers double because of one ship that wasn’t our fault.”
March 8: “We have a perfectly coordinated and fine tuned plan at the White House for our attack on CoronaVirus.”
March 9: ““The Fake News Media and their partner, the Democrat Party, is doing everything within its semi-considerable power (it used to be greater!) to inflame the CoronaVirus situation, far beyond what the facts would warrant,”
March 10: “It will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away.”
March 13: National Emergency Declaration
March 13: “I don’t take responsibility at all”
And people like @participant are just unable to admit this lack of foresight and reluctance of Trump to act lest it spook the stock market, is the reason there are 160,000+ dead.August 16, 2020 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #1892615
I’m glad you have all the dates down pat. I guess you were very board. What would a liberal would’ve done???? Nothing!!!!!!!! So stop this non sense.
Das Torah says vote for Trump so you vote for Trump no questions asked just like you all of you were so busy during the pandemic about minyanim that daas Torah says don’t daven with a minyan so too here. Don’t pick and choose.August 16, 2020 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1892630
This discussion isn’t about minyanim, voting, daas Torah or what a “liberal” would have done.
It’s about Trump, and whether his actions or lack thereof, are responsible for 160,000 dead and counting.August 16, 2020 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #1892637som1Participant
“It’s about Trump, and whether his actions or lack thereof, are responsible for 160,000 dead and counting.”
tell me which action(s) did he do or didnt do that caused 160,000 deaths and countingAugust 16, 2020 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #1892658
what does trumps quotes have to do with my opinion that he didn’t have to do anything? ctlawyer where does that indicate that the prez is there to tell you to bundle up if it’s cold outside? the prez is required to make laws to protect you from other’s actions, not your own. why is no one blasting the 160000 victims for not staying home or wearing a mask? where’s their responsibility? it’s0 only trump who has to have the great brain for that?August 16, 2020 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #1892667
Did you notice that the U. S. is the only country in the developed world that was so badly hit? Nobody thought this would happen.August 16, 2020 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #1892669
If the feds would have done what the states did, it would have had a huge impact. China only had one epicenter. The U. S. is on it’s fourth.August 16, 2020 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #1892670
You are allowed to vote for Trump, even though he ignored his duties by not fighting the pandemic.August 16, 2020 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #1892671
The President is claiming that he did a great job on the pandemic. You are saying that he did not have to; or could not have done anything. See the problem?August 16, 2020 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #1892685
What do you want trump to do more if his hands are tied??? Pandemic is over and now it’s a hoax with the dems
Everything that happened is because that’s what hashem wanted.August 16, 2020 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #1892687
What was dumb is that Trump was afraid of the economy tanking and thereby he down played the significance of the virus such that peoole contunued there regular daily routines infecting others and destroying the economy anyway.August 16, 2020 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #1892702
Proud, don’t be so proud saying the pandemic is over as people are dying and saying Hashem (capital) wanted it, so we don’t have to help ourselves and do anything and you don’t have to blame anyone for not doing something.August 16, 2020 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #1892711
Because a government exists to serve and protect its citizens.
Yes they may not tell you to bundle up in the cold, but they sure do implement curfews in inclement weather.
The DMV, OSHA, FDA and many others government departments exist to protect the country’s citizens. People cannot be expected to be informed and make sound decision on matters outside of their expertise. And it’s the government typically inform them.
Trump’s government though was in complete denial and actively suppressed preparation for a pandemic. Whilst during February, other countries were implementing lockdowns, competent testing regimes and encouraging mask wearing, Trump was waffling on about how well he understands this medical stuff and how the virus will go away like a miracle.
But the truth is your entire comment is a none starter. Millions of people didn’t have a choice to simply stay home and wear a mask (you know, the masks Trump for months discouraged). What were people in nursing homes supposed to do? People that had no healthcare and sithout any stimulus, simply could not afford to stay home. There was so much that could have been done. So much that other countries did do, yet Trump failed to, and now America is “Great” again, albeit in its number of COVID cases.August 16, 2020 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #1892710☕️coffee addictParticipant
I love the commenters on this threadAugust 16, 2020 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #1892708
Take some Hydroxychloroquine and don’t go to hospital and you will be fine and daven.August 16, 2020 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #1892709
There are 35,000 new cases and 490 deaths today alone in the USA, and you say the pandemic is over?
So your saying because everything happens because Hashem wanted it to, nobody should ever be held accountable. RightAugust 16, 2020 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #1892718
oh Coffee addict, thank you! I have been getting all worked up from this thread, wanting to respond to some of the posts but knowing it doesn’t pay. Some of the comments are so beyond rational that you realize there is just nothing to say in response. And then you did it. You said all there is to say.August 16, 2020 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #1892720
Where you looking at these numbers from? A liberal site??? That’s why every death that’s not COVID their counting and their making up casesAugust 16, 2020 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #18927321Participant
not every reported covid death was actually from covid. Hospitals inflated the numbers to get funding.August 16, 2020 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #1892738akupermaParticipant
Trump did try to ban immigration but the Democrats objected –
It turns out most infected people don’t get sick-if they admitted that in January there would have been no closures, Worldwide, more people are dying for the panic and overreaction than from the disease. Now that we know that only 1 in 20 infected people get sick, and perhaps 1 in 200 die, this will seem in retrospect like a false alarm – and Trump will seem clever for not totally falling for it
If you are a Democrat, as a point of faith, you must believe that Trump is the devil/satan/source of all evil.August 16, 2020 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #1892745
Well said “akuerma”
Thank youAugust 16, 2020 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #1892747
“how many deaths resulted from legalizing marijuana ”
The total number of deaths from acute intoxication caused by smoking marijuana in the entire history of humanity appears to be zero.August 16, 2020 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #1892758
“Trump did try to ban immigration but the Democrats objected”
Typical Trumpie lie, which I have already addressed.August 16, 2020 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #1892749
” mayors aren’t even capable of keeping us safe from guns”
Giuliani and Bloomberg couldn’t, either. (They had many more homicides than De Blasio.) No NYC mayor will be able to as long as the Federal government refuses to act. The database of firearms transfers isn’t even computerized, making it impossible to track illegal gunrunning from the states like Pennsylvania with lax gun laws. (Virginia finally tightened up some of its insanely lax gun laws this year; it had been a major source of illegal guns for NY criminals.) And you don’t even need to simplest background check to transfer a firearm in much of the US.August 16, 2020 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #1892751
“tell me which action(s) did he do or didnt do that caused 160,000 deaths and counting”
The biggest one was banning all testing for weeks in February. We had absolutely no idea how bad the problem was. And we STILL do not have adequate testing capacity, SIX MONTHS LATER.
Another one was actively obstructing the delivery of medical equipment to where it was needed. The lack of protective equipment in nursing homes was particularly deadly. (But it is more fun to blast Cuomo.) Trump had his goons actually seize bought and paid for equipment. The Republican Governor of Maryland had to use his Korean-born wife’s contacts in her home country to get a supply of equipment shipped directly to Maryland and then had to hide it in a secret facility protected by the Maryland State Police to protect it from Trump’s goons.
Another one was deliberately creating mass spreading events when he finally banned travel from outside the US in mid-March (no he did not ban travel from China in January). People tried to beat the ban and created humongous crowds at the immigration and customs facilities at multiple international airports. That was probably the reason hospitalizations exploded here in NYC just a few weeks later, with tens of thousands of deaths.
Another one was his promotion of medical quackery in the form of hydroxychloroquine. He dissed experts who warned (correctly) that there was no real evidence for its efficacy. That made it difficult to enroll people into clinical trials either for hydroxychloroquine or for treatments that might actually work.
Another was promoting an end to shutdowns even as hospitalizations and deaths were exploding. It made people think incorrectly that they weren’t vulnerable. Unfortunately some of the Governors in his cult went along with him; we can see the results in Texas, Georgia, Florida, and Arizona. I remember discussions here about death panels; Texas got death panels but nobody seems to care because it was under a Republican governor that that happened.
Another is refusing to wear a mask in public.
I could go on, but you get the point. Essentially he did everything wrong at every turn. We could have been South Korea or Germany. Trump didn’t create the virus but he really screwed up.August 16, 2020 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #1892757
Actually some other developed countries turned out to be even worse than the US in terms of death rate. Italy got hit early when nobody had a clue. It also has an incompetent government, currently a coalition between a Trumpist party and a center left party — imagine Trump and Pelosi trying to share decision making and you get the picture. Spain has also been badly hit and its own incompetent government is also a weak coalition that is even more wilder than Italy’s — imagine Trump, Pelosi, and Ilhan Omar trying to govern together. The UK and Sweden have been badly hit, in part because both governments decided initially to let the virus run its course and create mass death. At least Boris Johnson got scared back into sanity; Sweden, which has a leftist government, proved that stupidity is not limited to right wingers. Finally, Belgium has he highest reported death rate in the world, but because it counts cases differently, its stats aren’t really comparable.
Germany did much, much better. Angela Merkel is competent. Canada also did much, much better; I had never been impressed by Justin Trudeau (unlike his father, one of the greatest 20th century leaders any country has ever had) but he did address the pandemic well. Worthy of note is that Israel also has a low death rate compared to most developed countries.
The problem is that the US is not headed in the right direction, and since Trump ordered a hostile takeover of the statistics and still hasn’t dealt with the testing problems we can’t even tell for sure where we are.August 16, 2020 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #1892760
“perhaps 1 in 200 die”
In the US the number is a bit more than 3 in 100 have died. If we do what Trump wants and open up everything, that translates to about ten million dead Americans once the virus runs its course.August 16, 2020 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #1892770
You can’t white wash 170,000 people dead.August 16, 2020 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #1892772August 16, 2020 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #1892774
Another liberal speak. You know for a fact or saw on a dem site ?August 16, 2020 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #1892791
Quay- no joke, i was just gonna ask you the same questions! Right after i ask charlie if nancy polosi ghost writes his posts.August 16, 2020 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #1892794
All these things you said do you know for sure or you
Just saw on CNN ? Also what should’ve trump done?
And I guarantee you that the dems would’ve done a terrible job they would prob still wouldn’t do anything.August 16, 2020 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #1892797
Calling someone a liberal is hardly a counter-argument.August 17, 2020 12:15 am at 12:15 am #1892800
How very funny. Please stop. My sides are splitting.
I’ve yet to see you make a verifiable point to counter anything @charliehall has said though.August 17, 2020 1:34 am at 1:34 am #1892805
I will never stop fighting for Trump he is the best president and you will never switch my mind. I’m sorry that you got fooled. Your brain washed from the leftest and blmsAugust 17, 2020 8:54 am at 8:54 am #1892808
“Hospitals inflated the numbers to get funding.”
How does this work? Are they getting money for treatment that is not being provided? Are they creating fictitious patients?August 17, 2020 8:54 am at 8:54 am #1892813
“Worldwide, more people are dying for the panic and overreaction…”
Maybe this is true throughout history.
Nuclear explosions. Hiroshima. Chernobyl. Kyshtym. Windscale. Fukishima.
Civil wars. Colombia. Peru. Serbia. Sudan. Somalia.Afghanistan. Iraq. Syria. Libya. Yemen.
Murderous dictators. Stalin. Zedong. Hitler.Pasha. Tojo. Kai-shek. Gowon. Mariam. Pol Pot. Kim il Sung. Leopold II.
All epidemic diseases. Typhus. Measles. Ebola. Malaria. Smallpox. Nipah. HIV. TB. All three forms of Plague.
Major natural disasters. Earthquakes: Haiti. Messina. Chengdu. Ancash. Tangshan. Ashgabat. Tropical cyclones: Bangladesh. Bhola. Nargis. Nina. Andhra Pradesh. All five major heatwaves this century. The Vargas Tragedy and the 2004 Indian Ocean Tsunami.
Major wars. WW I & II. Balkan. Finland. Indochina. Madagascar. Korean. Algerian. Vietnam. Afghanistan. Kashmir.
Mental illness. Chronic pain. Poverty. Human trafficking.
You can leave my nobel prizes in a neat stack on the home page.August 17, 2020 8:55 am at 8:55 am #1892814
What about Trump makes him the best president?August 17, 2020 8:55 am at 8:55 am #1892815
Saying that there was, is, or will continue to be, a pandemic is upsetting to some posters. I have no idea why, but they insist that those who analyze it openly are terrified of coronavirus or lying.August 17, 2020 9:03 am at 9:03 am #1892823
whatever. too many posts to read. fact is, my opinion is, you discuss viruses with your Dr, not the potus . people who have to go out could have worn a mask–which would have been done if trump ordered a shutdown, anyway. or do you mean he should have given financial aid? he did. twice. and wanted to a third time.August 17, 2020 9:04 am at 9:04 am #1892824interjectionParticipant
The most interesting part of this whole conversation, and all similar ones, is that many people view their political party in complete black or white. Meaning, that everything negative that happens is the fault of the other party or at least that their party doesn’t deserve blame for it. On the other hand, everything positive that happened is directly as a result of the actions of their favorite political party, or that it occured despite the actions of the other party.
I’m a trump supporter but I still agree that he made some bad decisions.August 17, 2020 9:20 am at 9:20 am #1892854
nom – ““Hospitals inflated the numbers to get funding.”
How does this work? Are they getting money for treatment that is not being provided? Are they creating fictitious patients?”
it’s not real complicated.Paperwork at hospital asks, “did the patient test positive for covid?” If yes, reimbursement was dramatically higher. I speak first hand, many many patients with covid did not die from covid but were reimbursed for covid. Some were dying already, some recovered from their covid, some looked they probably had covid, some had covid symptoms, etc.
And if they had been vented, even higher reimbursement.August 17, 2020 9:21 am at 9:21 am #1892857
Saying that there was, is, or will continue to be, a pandemic is upsetting to some posters. I have no idea why, but they insist that those who analyze it openly are terrified of coronavirus or lying.”
another crazy statement. I understand that I could never compete with you on depth of information and breadth of topics, but the way you present everything so thoroughly and as plain facts (through word choice, since that was your next question I think) gives the false impression that your conclusions are also fact. I tried to respond once or twice but it’s impossible because it isn’t just a comment or sentence, it’s an upteich. Having all the facts in the world still does not guarantee a solid conclusion. And I don’t, don’t , don’t mean you are wrong because you disagree with me, or conclude differently. I think that in many subjects there are several rights and wrongs, but that statement is just a small example.August 17, 2020 9:59 am at 9:59 am #1892873
Mask don’t help. Do you have proof for it?August 17, 2020 11:35 am at 11:35 am #1892911
I misunderstood the OP. While it is dumb to blame Trump for the pandemic, it is even dumber to minimize the magnitude of what we faced/are facing. Developed nations are not used to dealing with health crises. Over the last two decades, epidemic diseases has toppled governments, started wars, killed crops, and generally devastated some countries. If this is not a call for leadership, than why have leaders?August 17, 2020 11:36 am at 11:36 am #1892913
It is complicated.
“I speak first hand..”
What does that mean?
a. You falsified patients yourself.
b. You saw someone falsifying.
c. They told you that they did it.
PS Just kidding! I recall you mentioning this before. I understand what you meant.
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