November 29, 2011 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #600892
It was the women who summoned the courage to go against Paroh’s edict to throw our baby boys down the Nile to drown.
Thousands of years later our children are being thrown in the river/under the bus by the hundreds.
If I CHAS V’SHALOM found someone hurting a child (not just mine), I’d wrap my hands around their throat. Pikuach nefesh overrides shomer negiah.
Short of that, it just may be time for the Yiddishe Mamas to become Mama Bears. Everyone else is just standing around and watching.November 29, 2011 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #831431
For sure, I would describe myself as a Mama Bear and I don’t limit it to my own cubs.November 29, 2011 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #831432always runs with scissors fastParticipant
wanderingchana, can you please explain to us what you’re referring to as your post is vague. What river/under the bus are you talking about?November 29, 2011 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #831433cleverjewishpunMember
She is very subtly trying to say that she will call the cops about suspected abuse and not wait for a Rav to weigh the pro’s and con’s depending on how “Chosuv” the person is.November 29, 2011 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #831434
Is that what she is saying?
Maybe she is saying she will not wait for her husband and will go ask her rav herself.
Really people. If you don’t trust your rav enough to ask him this shaila, it is probably time to get a new rav.November 29, 2011 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #831435
Get a new rav… hmmm…November 29, 2011 11:11 pm at 11:11 pm #831436soliekMember
or maybe she literally is decrying the common practice of throwing children under passing buses.November 29, 2011 11:13 pm at 11:13 pm #831437
If you don’t trust your rav enough to ask him this shaila, it is probably time to get a new rav.
+1November 30, 2011 12:18 am at 12:18 am #831438HealthParticipant
wanderingchana -“Get a new rav… hmmm…”
If anybody wants -I’ll become their Rov. Maybe I’ll change careers -if the price is right!
I think most people just want Rabbonim to yell about things that has nothing to do with them. Eg. – No computer in the house -they love when the Rabbi is yelling about the Net. So on and so on.November 30, 2011 2:08 am at 2:08 am #831439always runs with scissors fastParticipant
why would she use the term ‘buses’ for molesters?
Why would she compare her Rav to Paroh?November 30, 2011 2:15 am at 2:15 am #831440hockaroundtheclockMember
Because they’re both in de-Nile(denial).November 30, 2011 2:53 am at 2:53 am #831441HealthParticipant
Hock n roll! –
+1November 30, 2011 3:29 am at 3:29 am #831442
To throw someone under the bus is a common metaphor for someone standing around watching someone injure someone else but doing nothing to stop it.
When the male posters above are done making their snarky little comments, perhaps they could describe what they would do if they saw with their own eyes a child being molested. In front of your eyes, at that moment. Would you try to get the abuser to stop? Would you MAKE the abuser stop? Or would you walk/slink away?
Imagine it’s your son. Imagine it’s YOU at the age of the child being abused. Why aren’t you filled with rage at the thought of someone doing that to you??? You are an adult now – you are not powerless over your abuser anymore – MAKE IT STOP!!November 30, 2011 3:36 am at 3:36 am #831443
New snarky comment:
Well, why don’t you tell us exactly what you want people to do, and then we can discuss it.November 30, 2011 4:54 am at 4:54 am #831444
That’s not helpful.November 30, 2011 5:10 am at 5:10 am #831445
Two years ago, I met a chasidish couple in Miami. He was running for political office in Brooklyn. I asked him what makes him qualified to hold a political position. So he told me how much he does for the community and how he advocates for the yiddin and so on. So I asked him, oh in that case what does he intend to do about the molestation problem in the yeshivas? He told me, “what problem, it is a part of growing up. Most of my son’s friends were molested”. He said this with a straight face as if it was a right of passage or a fact of life. I just looked at him as if he were a martian and said “You knew that these boys were molested and you did nothing about it, you said nothing about it and you want to represent the community? You claim you advocate for the community? You are worthless!”November 30, 2011 5:31 am at 5:31 am #831446
I totally agree with you. But let’s not judge people by the actions of others. Especially when the people in question are far greater than the others.November 30, 2011 5:43 am at 5:43 am #831447
yitayningwut, what makes a person great? Is it what they do in public or what they do in private?November 30, 2011 5:45 am at 5:45 am #831448YatzmichMember
testy or irritable; short.
(Dictionary.com UnabridgedNovember 30, 2011 8:17 am at 8:17 am #831449
i cant believe what this guy told u aries!!!!!!its not part of growing up and its not part of anything bichlal. we had this talk about going to the rabbonim(rav zwiebel from aguda(radio show just after leiby kletzky was found)and the opinions were very diffrent. wanderingchana made it very clear what she would do kudos to her and all the alike because they are doing the right thing in my eyes.November 30, 2011 8:22 am at 8:22 am #831450Ken ZaynMember
Aries I’ve been a lurker here for a while and enjoy your comments usually but your post which implied that most yeshiva boys are molested was most out of order to say the least. I was in the yeshiva world until my Chasuna and beyond but never saw, experienced or was aware of any such abuse. And nor are any of my friends who between us were in many yeshivos! Be careful what you say and write, especially in public.
Chana your OP was very well written. Well done. But while most people would not ignore a crime committed before their eyes, the more subtle knowledge that something is going on that should not be that you have not witnessed yourself is very different and is what seems to have happened in these many but individual alleged cases.November 30, 2011 10:49 am at 10:49 am #831451ToiParticipant
aries- youre point is a valid; no-one is saying its not. i agree that tis a terrible thing to be ignored and the harshest methods shold be employed to stop it. but youre turning every single thread into an anti-molestation vendetta. we’re not arguing with you, but stop hijacking.November 30, 2011 10:51 am at 10:51 am #831452moi aussiMember
aries, I’m horrified at your story. The fact that this guy wasn’t even embarrassed to tell you this, reflects the callousness of men. Shocking…November 30, 2011 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #831453
i dont get u guys. This is about child abuse here. wanderingchana started it so i dont see whats to hak on aries now.November 30, 2011 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #831454
What does this have to do with men v women?
Do you think fathers like seeing their little boys or girls raped?
And do you think women are never molesters?November 30, 2011 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #831455TheGoqParticipant
I second PBA i am a man and i am horrfied that children are hurt this way.November 30, 2011 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #831456cherrybimParticipant
“If I CHAS V’SHALOM found someone hurting a child (not just mine), I’d wrap my hands around their throat. Pikuach nefesh overrides shomer negiah.”
You talk the talk, but would you really do anything? Has anyone? I have not seen or heard of anyone protesting in front of yeshivas or institutions that harbor and protect child abusers and/or molesters.November 30, 2011 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #831457
What a person does in private. But we have no way of knowing that, so we are forced to go by what the person does in public. The same way I don’t know for sure if you are a real, conscious person, or just a robot, but I can’t live my life like that, so I assume that you are a human being just like me, until there is some indication otherwise.November 30, 2011 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #831458
yita, the point is that we honor and respect all because form the outside they profess to be so good, and they show themselves to be pillars of the community. But what they don’t show to the public is that dark side of their character and that is that they are molesters. It is only when someone “outs” them that we know they are not who they pretend to be. They are NOT the “tzadik”, the “Choshuva” mentch, the great Rabbi, they are just a molester.
When a victim tell us THIS is the man that molested me such as Joel Engelman who outed a Rebbe from Satmar Yeshiva, then that man should no longer enjoy any kovod at all and should not be trusted with children. He should NOT be protected by the community and no one should send their children into his class. It boggles the mind that he is still teaching. When Kolko was outed and it was known that Margolis covered for him. It boggles the mind that he opened another yeshiva and parents threw their children at him.November 30, 2011 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #831459
If there are known molesters that have been protected by the “community”, then those people who covered it up should be shamed as well.
And I don’t care what people say the first call is to the police, Rabbi’s do not make the law nor are they allowed to prevent people from calling the authorities, last time I checked this was called obstruction of justice…a punishable offence under the law.November 30, 2011 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #831460
Yes. I don’t know. Me neither.December 1, 2011 1:13 am at 1:13 am #831461
You are totally missing my point.
I am not talking about respecting molesters.
I am talking about respecting rabbis, whom you claim are collectively involved in some evil scheme to enable molesters to enjoy themselves. It is that nonsensical idea that I take issue with.December 1, 2011 1:40 am at 1:40 am #831462daughterofHashemMember
You all clearly feel strongly about this….so do something!!! you can be the one to change how the frum world takes car of these situations!!!December 1, 2011 2:08 am at 2:08 am #831463
The ones who have had the most influence are the bloggers, I dont think there would be any movement on the issue without themDecember 1, 2011 2:23 am at 2:23 am #831464
Aries, are you sure that Chassidishe yungerman understood what molested means? For all I know he thought it means chapping petch! The story makes no sense otherwise.December 1, 2011 3:04 am at 3:04 am #831465
msseeker, Yes, very clear and he was NOT a yungerman he was MY age and spoke perfect english. He was also a chevrah man who knew a lot more than me, no question about it. He continued with “do you think it didn’t happen in MY days in yeshiva?”
Yita, I am NOT missing your point at, all it is you who are purposely missing mine. I can’t respect Rabbis who do nothing about this. Do you get it now? They can and should but don’t. They are NOT stopping the molesters or the problem. Should I respect that? They are NOT implementing nor proposing safeguards to make it harder for the molesters. Should I respect that? Do you get that? They are not making it harder for the molesters to harm children? Do you get that? Should I respect that? They are NOT implementing educating children about their own private space and NOT allowing anyone to invade that space even if it is a teacher, rebbe, parent, sibling, relative, friend, etc. or touch them inappropriately, this needs to be taught in school by trained individuals. Should I respect that? They are NOT implementing safeguards in mikvaot, should I respect that? What have they done over the past few years since this issue has been publicized that I can respect? Please tell me, respect needs to be earned once it is lost.December 1, 2011 3:43 am at 3:43 am #831466
I am not missing your point either.
I believe what you are saying is a fallacy. The rabbanim I know are not like that.December 1, 2011 3:59 am at 3:59 am #831467
Yita, believe what you want, I won’t lose sleep over it. I only hope that you won’t have to change your mind because it hits close to home.December 1, 2011 9:02 am at 9:02 am #831468
yita so please explain how the rabbonim that you know took care about this.December 1, 2011 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #831469
Aries, it still makes no sense. If it’s part of growing up, how come none of my kids or siblings knows about such things b”H? When I warn them about that, they don’t even know what I’m talking about. Only one brother had one sub (NOT Rebbe) who took kids on his lap. The only explanation I can think of is that your chevraman is himself a molester. Like some people with mental illness try to pretend that the whole world is mentally ill.
Another point. My father, a tzaddik of a yid, still refuses to believe that parental molestation is possible. He’s so far from such filth, he can’t imagine it happening. I’m sure many rabbonim are like that. We should try to explain it to them, of course, but instead of denigrating them, we should appreciate their purity, and the holiness of Klal Yisrael, that prevents them from seeing the truth.December 1, 2011 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #831470
“Aries, are you sure that Chassidishe yungerman understood what molested means? For all I know he thought it means chapping petch! The story makes no sense otherwise.”
and here ladies and gentleman is the problem!!!!December 1, 2011 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #831471
No Child should ever be left alone with a teacher/principle etc. regardless of how long their beard or white their shirt is.
If a teacher has to speak to my child. The door must remain fully open and the “Rabbi’s” secretary must be present in the meeting.
There is never a reason for a “teacher” to meet privately with a young student. If you have something to say, call me and speak to me and my child together.
Teach your children to know what is and isn’t an appropriate touch
Teach your children not to trust people just because the look “religious”
Teach your kids to punch and kick and get out of there…
Call the cops ASAP
Shun the molesters and those who protect them
There are molesters still teaching children, your child can be the next victim…why aren’t more people stepping up and being more vocal about this….December 1, 2011 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #831472
msseeker, although it is very difficult and heartbreaking to believe this is true, it is true. There was recently a story of a Menahel in Brooklyn who escaped to E”Y with his sons because he and his sons were molesting his own daughters.
I am currently helping a victim who was not only molested as a young child by her own grandfather and father, but grew up to be a victim in her adult life as well.
msseeker, until you are willing to roll up your sleeves and get yourself involved in the parsha by either just listening to understand the victim/survivors or actually doing something to help them, you really won’t truly understand it or even fully be able to believe it completely because it is so unfathomable that this is actually happening or someone should bring themselves down to such a low madreigah and do such a vile act. But once you speak to victims and see the pain that they carry and see how their lives have been altered, there is no turning back. There is no way you can be silent and not do whatever is in your power to protect and defend.
I am pretty close to a Rav in this neighborhood and when I started the organization if founded years ago to combat this, I called him in to join and we were talking about going to the police. He told me his hands were tied by the Agudah. He said his own nephew was molested and he went to HIS rav for help. He said his own hands were tied behind his back and he cried bitter tears. He was told he could do nothing about it and he should remain quiet. This is a prominent Rav in MY neighborhood who has a huge following, he works with teens. He said to me, “can you imagine how helpless I felt? I couldn’t even advocate for and help my own nephew?” He had raglayim l’davar. There was no doubt in his mind that his nephew was telling the truth. He saw the transformation in him, he knew who the perpetrator was and yet he was silenced.
I still consider this Rav my friend, I still hold him in high esteem and high regard. But what do you think this little lesson taught me?December 1, 2011 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #831473
I know this is happening, I’m just not convinced that it’s so widespread. If it’s “part of growing up” (r”l), most of us would’ve been molested, or at least knew more than a few victims of molestation. And if that were the case, nobody would deny the problem. The reason so many don’t believe it must be because it’s NOT widespread, and surely not as widespread BY FAR as among the goyim, or the Catholic clergy with their crazy curse of celibacy. This is simple common sense. Seeing abuse everywhere is just as foolish as seeing it nowhere. I’m all for your crusade, but don’t exaggerate, please, and have a little respect for our rabbonim and mesorah. No, we are not like them. (I’m not referring to those who watch goyishe shmutz, of course. Even if they’re “frum”, they’re human. Looking at shiksas or worse is not exactly conductive to kedusha.)December 1, 2011 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #831474
It does.December 1, 2011 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #831475
There is a difference between respect and awe.December 1, 2011 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #831476December 1, 2011 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #831477
msseeker, I am not the one that said “it is part of growing up”. I am NOT male, so I am not one who knew about this in my youth or through my schools. My brother kept it from me, even my kids kept it from me. When I found out about it years ago, I went to my kids and asked them why none of them told me, and I asked my husband why he never said anything to me and they just looked at me and said “Really, you didn’t know?” And my come back was, “If none of you men told me how was I supposed to know”. Obviously they were all well aware and no one informed me!
I asked some of my chasidish women friends and they said “they are terrified that their young boys go to the mikveh, they wish they could stop them”. I was always curious why my boys stopped going to the mikveh and preferred to toivel Erev Yom Tov in the ocean, but I never asked. They said the mikveh was crowded and I left it at that.
Mseeker, there is no way of knowing just how widespread or common this is because the Rabbonim do not allow it to be reported, so the only way of knowing is to hear it from victims. If you go to a conference where vicitms are gathered and you see how many victims show up, you will be shocked. If you heard from Dov Hikind when he got a thousand calls and that was basically from Brooklyn, then there is reason to be shocked. If you heard from people who say they know of a molester who hangs out in a particular shul in Boro Park for decades and no one has chased him out nor reported him to the police you can surely be shocked. If you know from victims that this happens in the mikvas and no one has implemented safe guards in the mikvas you can surely be shocked. When you hear that there are men who hang out in the mikveh for hours what is there to say? When a Rebbe leaves his classroom or recess and sneaks away with only one child, what is there to say. When a Rebbe puts a child on his lap (and we are NOT talking about a 3 year old) and the whole class sees that kid squirming what is there to say. When a Rebbe kisses a 16 year old bochur on the lips, or sneaks into a dorm room at night and touches a sleeping child what is there to say?
Honestly msseeker, maybe YW can start a thread for victims to tell their stories with a disclaimer that these stories are real and painful to read and members should be aware before opening that thread. Victims/survivors need a voice and people such as yourself need to hear the honest truth because it is so hard to understand, and it is so hard to imagine the act itself, who the perps are, how they manage to hide it, and how often and widespread this really is. Also whether it is happening in MO, Yeshivish, Chareidi communities or accross the board and whether this is happening in the home or in the schools or on the streets. Also it is important to hear what these victims and their families were told about reporting their abuse and how it affected them.
It is better that you all hear it first hand from the victims themselves than second hand from myself and other advocates. The best thing would be if a legitimate website would allow the victims to have a voice and be anonymous so that they don’t have to share their shame or reputation or that of their family. In the meantime as I suggested before, please read “HUSH” to just get a small understanding how this can happen, since it is a true story.December 1, 2011 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #831478🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
aries – I don’t understand why the Rav said his hands are tied. A person at the Aguda telling him to be quiet shouldn’t mean anything to him in this situation. What kind of a person is he to have made that choice? I don’t understand why you aren’t triple angry with him for cowering than at individuals who are brazen enough to request it? That actually makes me madder than the requesting and abusing does. I know very well whats out there, and I totally get the people who are unable to see it and pretend it aint so, but I don’t get someone knowing and saying their hands are tied. So lose your darn position and save the kids!
(I’m yelling at the topic- not at you)December 1, 2011 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #831479🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
msseeker – while I agree with everything you are saying I gotta tell ya, it really is that bad.
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