Ivermectin…? Proofs, risks?

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  • #2018724
    2scents
    Participant

    Dr. Nat

    “ My point was that when disclosing side effects of a medicine, they are not “what happens when you overdose”. The side effects are real effects of taking actual prescribed dosages”

    Well, you did write the following.

    “Dangerous side effects of Ivermectin include nausea and vomiting IF YOU OVERDOSE. So basically, same as alcohol.”

    You even put the words “if you overdose” in CAP, this seems that your not referring to normal doses.

    It also seems to imply that overdosing or excessive alcohol is benign, its not.

    #2018725
    2scents
    Participant

    Dr. Nat,

    “ being that I had personal anecdotal evidence of its success to share with the Tzibbur.”

    Why not reproduce the same results in a controlled trial so the rest of us can rely on this.

    Furthermore, when its an uncontrolled setting there might be other factors or biases involved that makes the data less reliable.

    #2018726
    Health
    Participant

    AAQ -“Does not answer that it will help in US – maybe yes, maybe no. The fact that you can’t show one developed country, tells a lot. Just think about it.”

    If you would have gone to the site I mentioned before – you’d know all the answers!

    What I can’t understand is how the practice of medicine is beholden to Politics.
    This country has let millions die because of Politics.
    Once Trump promoted HCQ, it all became political!

    Now they only let the government decide what to do for this Pandemic.
    Since when is only the government in charge?!?
    Originally the reason was the government was the protector against Bad Therapies.
    They aren’t in charge to stop letting people to use therapies that are proven to work!
    This is like what they do in Tolitarian Countries.

    Now back to Ivermectin:
    “FLCCC Alliance and British Ivermectin Recommendation Development Group (News)
    Joint Statement of the FLCCC Alliance and British Ivermectin Recommendation Development Group on Retraction of Early Research on Ivermectin:
    News release noting that ivermectin remains effective after excluding Elgazzar et al. Given the large magnitude effects and 61 studies, excluding one study with ~3% of patients does not significantly change the evidence base.”

    #2018738
    Dr. Nat
    Participant

    2 cents:
    I will allow you to reproduce the effects of my experience and I will not even charge you for it. And it would not be a chiddush anyway, as studies had already been conducted which demonstrated its efficacy.

    #2018759
    2scents
    Participant

    Dr. Nat,

    While I responded to your post, I didnt think that its your responsibility to do a study demonstrating the efficacy of Ivermectin when it comes to Covid.

    But there are groups out there promoting the drug for Covid as a treatment and prophylaxis. They make various claims, why not conduct a standard study that can objectively be used to make that point?

    #2018760
    mdd1
    Participant

    Kollelman, please reveal how many millions have already died from the vaccines. 40 million, 50 million? Enlighten the ones dwelling in darkness.

    #2018789
    kollelman
    Participant

    Here’s a sample:

    Ivermectin for Prevention and Treatment of COVID-19 Infection: A Systematic Review, Meta-analysis, and Trial Sequential Analysis to Inform Clinical Guidelines

    Use of Ivermectin Is Associated With Lower Mortality in Hospitalized Patients With Coronavirus Disease 2019: The Ivermectin in COVID Nineteen Study

    The association between the use of ivermectin and mortality in patients with COVID-19: a meta-analysis

    Therapeutic potential of ivermectin as add on treatment in COVID 19: A systematic review and meta-analysis

    Ivermectin as a potential drug for treatment of COVID-19: an in-sync review with clinical and computational attributes

    #2018824

    Kollelman,
    thanks for taking your time to collect these references. Let’s now read them together. I think taken together, they are saying that there is potential benefit, but a lot is unclear, and it is surely not enough to use it instead of other protective methods, like vaccine.

    A couple of them indeed suggest improvement. Most from 3rd world countries One is non-RCT observing 300 patients very early in pandemic in March-May in FL seemingly without even matching patients to each other by demographics. Most reviews say that the quality is low.

    One (already discussed, controversial) study has 15 criteria, of which 1 shows significance moderate, the rest vary between low and very low.

    #2018833
    Health
    Participant

    AAQ -“is surely not enough to use it instead of other protective methods, like vaccine.”

    I agree, but the vaccine and MA is way not enough to stop the Pandemic.

    “Most from 3rd world countries”

    Did you go through all 61 studies to constantly write there isn’t enough evidence?!?
    From my previous post:
    “Given the large magnitude effects and 61 studies”

    Do you know how many studies that were done before they approved Remedsivir?!?
    Sorry – I smell a Rat!

    #2018836
    kollelman
    Participant

    A vaccine that has been rushed, new technology, that has previously failed in animal trials for SARS and is showing anecdotal evidence of danger, and ZERO evidence that it even helps at all? Cmon man!

    #2018934
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    There is an emerging consensus that some of these anti-viral drugs should be administered on a prophylactic basis to a small subset of the immune compromised (aka those on chemo etc.) since they either are not able to be vaccinated OR any vaccination is unlikely to yield sufficient antibody response to provide meaningful protection against covid. Will probably have to be limited to the most immune compromised since hospitals are still ill-equipped to handle widespread infusions of APPROVED drugs like Regeneron etc.

    #2018981
    Health
    Participant

    GH -“Will probably have to be limited to the most immune compromised since hospitals are still ill-equipped to handle widespread infusions of APPROVED drugs like Regeneron”

    Typical Liberal!
    The Genocidal Government can do No wrong!
    You’re right – No way can this country handle giving widespread infusions of Drugs for prophylaxis.
    So what does this Government have in plan for those that can’t get Vaxxed – let them all Die?!?
    How about Approving Ivermectin – which is an Oral pill or capsule?

    #2019263

    > Did you go through all 61 studies to constantly write there isn’t enough evidence?!?

    I looked at summary tables of studies that list effect, number of participants and in some case quality (low, very low). I also looked through a random sample of about 10 of them, including ones listed here. You can often see quality from the design – do they match patients by demographics, for example.

    For the approved medicines, I only looked at summaries. I looked in depth at Phase 3 vaccine trials when they came out.

    #2019365
    Health
    Participant

    AAQ -“I looked at summary tables of studies that list effect, number of participants and in some case quality (low, very low), etc.”

    So your answer should have been – No, I did not.
    But instead you tried a manipulation.

    Has this Pandemic affected you personally?
    I know quite a few people that have died from it.
    This government has a done a very Poor job, under Biden, to mitigate this Virus!
    It’s just Vaccines, Renegron or Remdisivir.
    That’s why you have the amount of dead people that you have.
    And don’t come back and say the Pharmaceutical companies are making more.
    We don’t Need more Expensive drugs!
    We need Cheap, Repurposed Drugs that work against Covid 19!

    #2019450

    Health, I just put in the next line that I looked at a number of these publications. Don’t respond after reading the first sentence.

    In the Jewish community, I know people who were and who were not affected. People who were affected were generally the ones who stayed uncareful, whether because their work/teaching or because of personal attitude. Several cases were people affected early in nursing homes and some older people during recent spikes whose relatives brought it in. I heard about only one case among my professional contacts (a professor in March 2020). Benefits of sane behavior are much higher than of any drug or vaccine, approved or not. As Gemora says, Hashem gave us Torah as medicine.

    #2019570
    Health
    Participant

    AAQ -“Don’t respond after reading the first sentence”

    And I wrote this -“etc”.
    Do you know what that means?

    “In the Jewish community, I know people who were and who were not affected.”

    That really wasn’t my point.
    Do you anybody who died because of Covid 19?

    #2022022
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Pro Ivermectin people:

    How do you explain Dexamethasone and Fluvoximine? If the FDA doesn’t want to approve repurposed drugs such as Ivermectin be ause of greed, why are those okay?

    #2022039
    2scents
    Participant

    DY,

    Once a drug is approved, a physician may take the responsibility and prescribe drugs for different diseases and different doses, based on knowledge and professional judgment.

    Ivermectin may be prescribed by providers. However, since it is not approved for Covid use, the insurance may refuse to cover the costs (which can be expensive).

    #2022085
    Health
    Participant

    DY -” If the FDA doesn’t want to approve repurposed drugs such as Ivermectin be ause of greed, why are those okay?”

    LOL.
    Since when did you become a comedian?
    You’re talking about Greed – Do you know how much Remedsivir & Monoclonal Antibodies cost?
    And those are approved the Government.

    #2022203
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Do you know how much Remedsivir & Monoclonal Antibodies cost?
    And those are approved the Government.

    Right, and so are Dexamethasone and Fluvoximine, which aren’t that expensive.

    #2022204
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So, is it remotely possible that the common denominator isn’t the cost, but rather that they work? And that the reason they didn’t approve Ivermectin and HCQ is because they don’t?

    #2022252
    2scents
    Participant

    DY,

    They need better data to make a recommendation. The NIH has listed ivermectin as not for or against it, but more studies are needed to see if it is effective.

    Interesting how molnupiravir works, it binds to the viruses amino acids interfering with its ability to replicate, at least there is a 50% chance it wont be able to replicate.

    Being that the results were very substantial they were able to stop the study as the predetermined objectives were reached.

    #2022292

    Thinking as an engineer, the drug progress will probably be incremental. There are moments of breakthroughs – inventing electricity, new vaccine, but in other cases progress is incremental. People usually underestimate that: say, electric vehicles come up with new things evry 5 years improving by 10%, while old fashioned cars do not have new inventions but continue improving with small things by 2% every year. Same progress overall.

    same, there were no “miracle drugs” so far, as with most viruses. Maybe especially because COVID attacks multiple systems, etc. So, look for incremental improvements in combining multiple drugs, some expensive, some cheap (there are 2 approved, and several controversial, plus vitamins), and ways oxygen and steroids are used, and mortality will probably continue slowly going down from a combination of those.

    #2022301
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    I’ve got a better idea.

    If you have a question about a medicine, ask your doctor. If you want to know if you should get vaccinated, ask your doctor. If you want to know if the risk of getting vaccinated is more than the risk of getting COVID and treating it with ivermectin, ask your doctor.

    And by “your doctor” I don’t mean a guy you looked up because you like his or her policies. I mean the doctor you generally go to for when you’re sick and have been going to before 2020. If you feel like you’re smarter than that doctor because of something you read on the internet or heard from a friend, then perhaps you no longer need doctors and should just do home-births, self-appendectomies, and treating illness with herbs from now on.

    #2022312
    Health
    Participant

    DY -“So, is it remotely possible that the common denominator isn’t the cost, but rather that they work? And that the reason they didn’t approve Ivermectin and HCQ is because they don’t?”

    So I love these Government Sheep that come out of the Woodwork.
    We discussed this back in the beginning of the Topic.
    Did you go to C19early.com?
    There are many Studies that those 2 therapies do work.
    Btw, they work better Remedsivir!

    The only logical reason that Remedsivir was approved and Not the others, is because some in the Government are getting Kickbacks!

    #2025955
    2scents
    Participant

    fluvoxamine Has shown a lot of promise in the together trial, its an already approved drug and also pretty cheap. The

    #2026007
    Health
    Participant

    2scents -“fluvoxamine Has shown a lot of promise in the together trial, its an already approved drug and also pretty cheap”

    So when did you start using it for Covid?

    #2026177

    We need to be careful when we argue with official positions based on media reports. Here are NIH covid guidelines, they are pretty level-headed:

    There is insufficient evidence .. to recommend either for or against the use of ivermectin .. Some clinical studies showed no benefits or worsening.. whereas others reported shorter time to resolution.. greater reduction in inflammatory marker levels, shorter time to viral clearance, or lower mortality rates.

    There is insufficient evidence ..to recommend either for or against the use of colchicine
    etc …

    Also, what do you guys think about new drugs from Merck and especially Pfizer? Seem pretty useful for remaining vaccine holdouts. Not sure why it again takes weeks and weeks to allow full use.

    #2026281
    2scents
    Participant

    AAQ,

    I assume the reason for being cautious about the new drug is because the side effects are unknown. Some believe there is potential concern that it may play with peoples DNA, the same way it does with the virus. Others argue that the few doses people will be taking is not concerning.

    Which is why initially it may only be approved for high risks patients, where the benefits outweigh the potential concerns.

    #2026299
    Health
    Participant

    AAQ -“There is insufficient evidence .. to recommend either for or against the use of ivermectin”

    That’s the government.
    But I posted this before – they approved Remedsivir with only Four studies, but they won’t approve Ivermectin, which has many more studies that it works.
    This proves that this Genocidal Government is Not basing their decisions on Science, but on Politics or Kickbacks!

    #2026513
    Health
    Participant

    AAQ -“There is insufficient evidence .. to recommend either for or against the use of ivermectin”

    There’s more to the story that you Government sheep are Not posting.
    A lot of Medical Groups and hospitals are Not letting you get Ivermectin.
    See the recent story on Medscape News:
    “As Constituents Clamor for Ivermectin, Republican Politicians Embrace the Cause”
    “Blake Farmer, Nashville Public Radio
    November 08, 2021”

    #2026739

    2scents, I think UK already approved Merck drug, is it for everyone?

    Health, I see that there is a real political fight about it, with both sides looking for political advantage. Sad. The only factual reference there is that there is indeed increase in reported Ivermectin poison cases, 2000 in 2021, or 400 per month recently, but only 1% of those had serious consequences.

    Still, I have to presume that most of these cases come from unvaxed and also uncareful people. I understand your position as a doctor trying to help them, but the guy in the story who is blaming medical establishment for his father’s death can only claim this if he did his hishtadlus – vaccine, mask, SD. I presume if he was vaxxed, it would have been mentioned in the story. So, if majority of this public showed this lack of judgment already, I am not giving a lot of weight to their opinions or even claims of facts.

    #2026787
    2scents
    Participant

    AAQ,

    This is from the UK Government press release.

    “Molnupiravir has been authorised for use in people who have mild to moderate COVID-19 and at least one risk factor for developing severe illness. Such risk factors include obesity, older age (>60 years), diabetes mellitus, or heart disease.”

    So apparently they are also initially reserving it for those with at least one risk factor. I assume that with time, the recommendations will be adjusted based on the data.

    #2026840

    2scents, thanks. makes sense. So, hope these 2 drugs, and other upcoming I hear, will become popular with people like Health’s patients. These are finally tools that can be easily used by the stubborn population. Maybe it would make sense for the confirmed anti-everythings to get them exposed to the virus under controlled environment (say, 15 minutes at a time) and then observe them for a week and give them both Ivermectin and new Pfizer drug with any symptoms, quickly moving to full immunity.

    #2026893
    Health
    Participant

    AAQ -“The only factual reference there is that there is indeed increase in reported Ivermectin poison cases, 2000 in 2021, or 400 per month recently, but only 1% of those had serious consequences”

    Again you didn’t do the research!
    Go to c19early.com and look at all the Studies that say Ivermectin is effective and safe.
    Your comment that it’s only 3rd world countries that are doing studies, (IDK about other first World countries, like Canada), but the reason the US isn’t investigating Ivermectin, is because Studies cost a lot of money.
    So who invests in Studies – usually Pharmaceutical companies.
    Because they are relying on getting it back when they discover a New Drug.
    This isn’t the case with Repurposed Drugs!

    “but the guy in the story who is blaming medical establishment for his father’s death can only claim this if he did his hishtadlus – vaccine, mask, SD.”

    That wasn’t the point that I wanted for e/o to take out!
    The point is that almost no hospital or Group Doctors are allowing Ivermectin for Covid 19.
    Why not?
    Because the Government never approved it.
    They are all too scared to try it.
    This is Proof that the Deniers of the Theory of Slippery Slope are Wrong!
    They claim if you Allow Abortions it doesn’t Affect other Cases.
    So you see that there is something called Slippery Slope.
    Because the Government never said that you can’t give Ivermectin for Covid19, just these professionals took upon themselves to deny Access to the Medicine!

    #2026938

    > The point is that almost no hospital or Group Doctors are allowing Ivermectin for Covid 19.

    i agree on this point. A lot of medical personnel follow safe instructions, unfortunately. I am still repeating that most of the complaints seemingly come from hardcore antivaxxers and antimaskers. In my opinion, they are pasul l’edut. And, practically speaking, we seem now to have drugs that are both easy to use, proven by normative trials, and almost accepted by the establishment, so please start giving them out in addition to whatever possible other drugs you advocate.

    Actually, with many drugs available, you can ethically conduct your own study – randomize your patients and give some Pfizer and Ivermectin, others – Pfizer and placebo.

    #2026966
    Health
    Participant

    AAQ -“And, practically speaking, we seem now to have drugs that are both easy to use, proven by normative trials, and almost accepted by the establishment, so please start giving them out in addition to whatever possible other drugs you advocate.”

    They might be developing new drugs, but a lot of patients can’t afford them.
    That’s why it’s essential to Allow repurposed drugs for the treatment of Covid 19.
    It’s funny, the democrats were the ones that cared for the poor & middle classes.
    That was a long time ago; Now they live in their Ivory Towers!

    #2027291

    Health, do your patients have access to insurance or Medicaid? I presume these drugs will be well covered. I don’t know what the halacha is when someone ends up consuming 1000s of dollars of medicine instead of using $40 of vaccine. Should such person refuse insurance payment or at least make a donation to, say, cover others like him?

    #2027551
    Health
    Participant

    AAQ -“Health, do your patients have access to insurance or Medicaid?”

    Don’t talk about me.
    Talk about the General Pop.
    Most people aren’t eligible for Medicaid.
    Most elderly have Medicare.
    Medicare only covers 80% of costs of out-hospital.
    So in this country – Medical & Drug costs are a Big Issue!

    “I presume these drugs will be well covered. I don’t know what the halacha is when someone ends up consuming 1000s of dollars of medicine instead of using $40 of vaccine. Should such person refuse insurance payment or at least make a donation to, say, cover others like him?”

    No.
    1) The vaccines Don’t work 100%.
    2) Acc. to Halacha, Dina DeMalchus Dina.
    There is no Law that if you aren’t Vaxxed – you aren’t entitled to Medical Care.
    They could make such a law or the Insurance won’t pay for care.
    But acc. to Law, right now, the insurance has to cover Non-Vaxxed patients!

    #2027617

    Vaccines reduce person’s chance of needing an expensive medicine. Thus, if someone chooses not to, then he imposes costs on the tzibur. Dina d’malchusa does not limit your personal obligations. You are still obligated to put up a fence to protect privacy of your neighbor even if building code does not require it. I am talking specifically about your Jewish patients who should think about such things. Ask them.

    I think some insurances start charging non-vaxxed people more. This make sense instead of charging everyone for that. There is a downside here that these people will be even more reluctant to seek appropriate cate. Also, this is a long cycle – it takes a year to implement, then a year for new rates to come up, too slow and indirect.

    #2027886
    Health
    Participant

    AAQ -“You are still obligated to put up a fence to protect privacy of your neighbor even if building code does not require it”

    So what? A PCP is Not a Rabbi.
    Don’t confuse the two!

    “I think some insurances start charging non-vaxxed people more.”

    If they do, they will lose in court.
    Just like you can’t charge Obese patients more money.
    And the same with AIDS & STDs.
    Also the same with Smokers.
    This isn’t a New problem – that people don’t take care of themselves!
    What world are you living in?!?

    #2028257

    From personal (Jewish) perspective, it would be an equal aveira to indulge in any other unhealthy behavios and then expect society to pay for your costs. Specifically, to your claims:

    ACA allows for insurance companies to charge smokers up to 50% more

    Starting in November, Delta Airlines will charge unvaccinated employees an extra $200 a month for the company health plan, citing the high cost of COVID hospitalizations…self-insured companies can more easily increase premiums for unvaccinated employees.

    Also, I think currently, ort recently, full costs were covered. Copays can be high:
    Still, patients won’t be responsible for the full cost of treatment, which can reach up to $50,000 for a severe case. Fully insured patients hospitalized with pneumonia — which involves similar treatment as for people with COVID-19 — typically end up owing around $1,300, for example.

    #2028258

    Yaakov was honest in his dealing with Lavan, despite the deceipt by the latter. Surely, an example not to find a way to cheat.

    #2028313
    Health
    Participant

    AAQ -“From personal (Jewish) perspective, it would be an equal aveira to indulge in any other unhealthy behavios and then expect society to pay for your costs”

    Thanks for the Mussar.
    My question to you – is anybody Listening?!?

    “ACA allows for insurance companies to charge smokers up to 50% more, etc.
    Starting in November, Delta Airlines will charge unvaccinated employees an extra $200 a month for the company health plan, citing the high cost of COVID hospitalizations…”

    That’s legally fine, if they charge AIDS pts. and others also for the increased costs.
    It’s all or nothing.
    Somehow – I doubt that they charge them more.
    So the companies that play that game, – should be taken to Court.

    #2028315

    Health, I don’t think you are getting the musar:
    I am saying certain behaviors by some yidden is questionable and you should somehow let them know. You are saying – I know, but other people behave badly also. How is that a Jewish attitude?

    #2028457
    Health
    Participant

    AAQ -“I am saying certain behaviors by some yidden is questionable and you should somehow let them know. You are saying – I know, but other people behave badly also. How is that a Jewish attitude?”

    You sound like we should all live in Utopia.
    It’s not my business to correct all the things that are wrong with this World.
    You do what you can.
    When is the last time that you did something good, besides Standing on your Soap box and telling e/o else what they should do?!?

    #2028764

    > When is the last time that you did something good,

    Took the garbage out recently. Did not shake a hand with a rashah. Helped feed and cloth several hungry kids today who nobody else would help. Already tired.

    You are saying that you deal with these Jewish patients and you have some ideas that lead to frustration only and no action. I am trying to help you figure out a positive way to channel your research.

    #2029038
    Health
    Participant

    AAQ -“You are saying that you deal with these Jewish patients and you have some ideas that lead to frustration only and no action.”

    I have no frustration.
    I don’t hesitate to tell patients my ideas.
    I don’t pressure or annoy them!
    They have free will – so a lot of times they won’t listen to me.

    “I am trying to help you figure out a positive way to channel your research”

    No one asked for your help.
    Thanks, but no thanks.

    #2029591
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant
    #2029668
    Health
    Participant

    RE – If you read the article you’d see if the hospital gave the dose that the family wanted, maybe the person would be alive!
    Another case where the Government let a person die from Covid.
    All those who Voted for this government have blood on their hands!

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