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i dont know but the jewish songs i have heard a lot of them come directly out of not-jewish songs. recently the songs ive been hearing are not even old not-jewish songs but some of the more recent ones.
can i ask you a question?
why are you bringing it up? you probably don’t mind if you listen to the secular stuff. and in order to know that something’s based on secular music you gotta know the original, am i right?
you’re funny. you’re working backwards. you know you shouldn’t, but you need to feel good about yourself so you’re gonna attack from your end? good luck, but i doubt you’ll come out feeling any better.
where’s syriansephardi, tellher to ask shwekey.$
qwertyuiop, don’t use specific names. i believe all jewish singers have outside sources. (MAYBE there are one or two exceptions)
What makes Judaism so great is that we can take the most mundane of things and elevate them spiritually. It’s no different with music. Isn’t it better to take that secular music that some are listening to anyway, and at least infuse it with a teeny bit of kedusha by changing the lyrics to something that touches our hearts? Country Yossie did it years ago, and many have imitated that style since. I think it’s great. The tunes are catchy, and at least we are singing Torah-dig concepts and not shtuss (for those who call it shtuss).
don’t use specific names
Agree, %100! Good point, moish.
~a~
anonymisss, you mean: 100%, right?
🙂
moish and anonymiss: i didn’t mean it like that, i was just remembering her first post, and she said she lives 2 blocks away from shwekey, so i was just saying, to ask her, sorry for making you think otherwise.$
i don’t see what’s wrong with a jewish singer using a tune from a goyish song. i used to think that was hypocritcal but now i realize that it isn’t the tune that is infused with tum’ah, it’s the lyrics and the singer.
The way I see it, if you know the original, you will be thinking about it while hearing the Jewish music. If the song is vulgar or something, it might make you think vulgar thoughts about this nice Jewish song. If you never heard the original, it wouldn’t be a problem(IMHO).
Truth be told I don’t like music. When I was a teenager, I tried listening to music so I wouldn’t be “behind the times” but never foudn anything I connected to, just non-sensical vulgar words streamed to music.
Ames you might be right that there is no Jewish music that stems from vulgar songs (I don’t listen to any music so…), but no matter how many times I hear certain songs, I always think back to the originals.
Most of the stuff put out now isn’t Jewish music. It’s music that happens to have Jewish lyrics to them.
Real Jewish music has the power to touch your soul. Listen to old Chassidic tunes (Modzitz is fantastic), listen to early D’veykus, Regesh, and other old-time Jewish singers/composers. The stuff just gives you a feeling when you listen to it, a feeling which can’t be described.
Most of the stuff that comes out now is popular when it comes out, and a few years later it’s gone. Nobody sings it anymore, people don’t really remember it. Real Jewish music lasts a long time. People still sing the classics, whether it’s Shalom Aleichem from Regesh 3, V’LeYerushalayim from D’veykus, or all the beautiful Shabbos niggunim from Modzitz. That is real Jewish music.
BS”D
First of all Gershon Veroba puts out covers of secular songs and does not hide that fact. I choose not to listen to him but others are uplifted by hearing familiar songs with borderline parody Jewish words.
When Jewish words are set to a secular tune, the tune, which is value neutral, is elevated. It is the same idea as having kosher supervision and then making a brocho on canned vegetables processed in some factory in Asia where the locals are mamash oivdei avoida zoro.
We just don’t have enough composers to satisfy the needs of a B”H growing community. In fact, many of the Jewish composers do it in their spare time. Yossi Green is a successful medical supplies dealer; R’ Boruch Levine and R’ Shmuel Brazil are rebbeim in yeshiva as are R’ Boruch Chait and R’ Hillel Paley, and for that matter R’ Yirmiya Damen and R’ Y Tzvi Breier of Belz are in chinuch from what I remember. Even the first singers could hardly make a living from it; Reb Dovid Werdyger amu”sh was just as well known as the best travel agent in Boro Park as he was for his chazzanus and for Aderet.
A lot of the Chassidishe niggunim are based on local peasant somgs – and the Middle Eastern Sefardi and Iraqi songs including those used during tefila come from the popular music of the 30’s – 60’s in Lebanon and Egypt (Farid ul-Atrache, Mohammed abdul-Wahab, Om Koulthoum etc). I have one of the Chaim Israel albums which has an Arabic song from Syria on it and I was trying to write lyrics to it myself one long night (I’m better at parody stuff and got nowhere) – but someone else got to it before I did. In Morocco, many of the popular singers were Jewish themselves – and their songs are sung with kosher words in both Hebrew and Moroccan Arabic. Asher Mizrahi, a chazzan who wrote the words to Habibi (ya habibi hakel hamelech haneeman yishlah meshiho haneeman), also wrote secular music in Tunisia – he was a perfectly kosher Jew and I know of no one in their right mind who would censor Habibi – I used the tune, which is also secular, for kedusha once when I had the amud at kever Rabbi Meir Baal Haness.
Other kosher muzika mizrahit comes from secular muzika mizrahit which in turn is Greek or Turkish music – if you hear a sad sounding kosher song, chances are that the music is from the Turkish singer Ibrahim Tatlises, a known gangster who supports the Kurdish terrorists in Turkey! Doesn’t bother me in the least – I get a kick out of recognizing a Tatlises song with words like rachem na al amcha yibane beit hamikdash and when I find them I buy kosher mizrahit albums like that by the kilo.
There is a problem when, at chassunes, bands play secular music without words, often without the baalei simcha knowing where it comes from. Baalei simcha need to be aware of this and insist that it does not happen especially if guests include baalei tshuva who may recognize the original – often the baalei simcha themselves have no idea where the tune comes from.
Then, there are crossover singers, mostly in EY, who occasionally record secular songs with minor changes so as to get a wider audience – I have a couple of albums like that. In one case, the secular songs are in Arabic, Turkish and Greek – I understand a bissel Turkish so that when I have children I will not play that in the home because I don’t want them asking me what it means and then forcing me to lie and say I don’t know, but Arabic and Greek hardly affect my neshomo and after a while the songs are tiring and frustrating because I have no idea what is being sung. Still, I support these singers because their music can get people into Yiddishkeit just by being enjoyable to all (and not by mock spiritual fakerei either).
But if the words have been changed, it is what Judaism is all about – elevating the mundane and even the profane. And indeed the kavono of the singer means a lot – having met MBD I could not care for one moment that Yidden, which I love to get up and stretch to when I’ve been sitting down for too long, comes from a German Eurovision song.
I don’t think all Jewish music comes from the goyim. You can feel when a song has that goyish sound/feel to it- or when it touches the soul, and most definitely is not from the radio or broadway etc…
I was once told that when listening to music, the composer’s intentions and feelings seep through. That’s the reasoning behind not using goyish tunes
But this is a huge yetzer hara for me, so I can’t darshin. I enjoy all music. Be it Yanni, Gershon Veroba, Isaac Honig, Yonason Schvartz, Schwekey, MBD, Chaim Yisroel……………..
Full Disclosure: I listen to non-jewish music!!
That being said, I do not know if the singers themselves know that it is copied (i have a feeling yes, but i will be dan lekaf zechus).
However, jewish music, in the past, has copied from: AC/DC, Scorpions (Lev Tahor Asher Bara and Rock you like a Hurricane), Andrew Lloyd Webber (Joseph/MBD), Rihanna and Lipa Shmeltzer, U2 and Shalsheles (the bridge of “Sunday Bloody Sunday” and Kel Hakovod sound very similar, do they not?), Lev Tahor and one of the artists from the “Shrek” soundtrack (the L.T song is: Avinu)
I could go on … would anyone like me to?
Funny that…..I read the whole post and no one even mentioned the ONLY real Jewish composer. The holy rebbe, R’Shlomo Carlebach zz.l
Rabbiofberlin- There are other names that can be included in the list of Authentic Jewish Music such as Yosse Rosenblatt and other Chazanim that recorded many years ago. Benzion Miller is another singer who sings songs from the Chasidisha Velt. The Frum Childrens Choirs sing Authentic Jewish Music and the list goes on. My point here being that Authentic Jewish Music is being sold at Galpaz and other Frum Record Stores, you just might have to dig deep in the stacks of CD`S to find them.
BS”D
While I believe Carlebach’s intent may have been to compose Jewish music, his behavior was really one step above a Baruch L. or Avrohom M. Would anyone listen to niggunim those 2 composed? No.
I will only listen to Carlebach when others sing it and really I only listen when forced because I can’t “change the channel” from Jewishbroadcast to Toker or vice versa.
Non-commercial, authentic Jewish composers (meaning the songs were composed as niggunim) whose songs are 10000 times better than the abovementioned include:
Reb Michel Twersky shlit”a – check his website also check out Karev Yom on Mendy Werdyger’s Sefira beShira album.
Reb Mottel Twersky
Niggunei Chabad – newer arrangements
Belz tapes – Reb Yirmia Damen, Reb Y Tzvi Breier, the Kalish brothers.
Reb Chaim Banet – anyone know if he is still active? He is my favorite of all time.
Reb Yankel Talmid A”H of Ger – regardless of the fact that Reb Dovid Werdyger amus”h (the real father of modern Jewish music IMHO as had he not commercialized it tapes and later disks would not have reached buyers properly) commercialized them, you can hear them in the Gerer beis medrash in Yerushalayim to this day.
The Modzhitzer Rebbe ZY”A (again his niggunim were commercialized by Reb BenZion Shenker amus”h and probably distributed by the Werdygers but they were composed as niggunim).
this is NOT a comprehensive list.
Yankdownunder – do you mean Benzion Miller who is a chazzan or Benzion Shenker? If the former I would love to hear some of his music – I never did.
BS”D
When and why did Yanni become so acceptable to the point that Jewish music retailers and sforim stores/Judaica shops sell his disks. Sounds like some strange New Age music which isn’t my thing, but why is it popular in the frum world?
BS”D
Did you hear Yonason Schvartz composed a special song for the Obama inauguration? It is called Fir Schvartz Yor’n!
Yanni is popular because it’s instrumental music, with no tumah lyrics.
I once asked my rabbi about the rumors how he got his musical inspiration. He told me not to worry about it.
I once heard my Rosh Hayeshiva ZT”L say that the real Jewish niggunim are written and sung when inspired, as opposed to a “rock”-style tune designed to be the latest catchy hit. However, he wouldn’t have gone along with the concert bans. That said, people need their outlets. If they won’t go to Jewish music concerts, they’ll go to worse places.
There are several Jewish bands who play in shmutzy nightclubs in Manhattan. I don’t know of any Rov who mattirs attending a performance there.
hey, first, goyish music, the lyrics are usually terrible from what i hear. But i really don’t get what’s wrong with their tunes! so, the music makes you dance, is that so terrible? yes, some jewish music does have good beats, but most music is just sloooow and boooring…. Also, who wants to listen to stuff that you can’t understand? Isn’t the whole point of music to “touch you”?
If you want a good beat and funny song, check out the Jewish version, Be’ezras Hashem. 🙂 know it’s from a goyish song but i’m not sure wich one. by the way, what’s wrong w/yanni? You know how many school dances my friends and i made up with it? A LOT!
Also, 8th day ROCKS, most ppl h8 it though.
BS”D
Which Be’ezras Hashem? The ones I know are the Yiddish song by MBD and a Hebrew language song “Be’ezrat Hashem Yihye Beseder”. I don’t know the origin of either one.
8th Day is not a problem really but a matter of taste.
I have no idea who Yanni is or what his music is like – but why is he so popular versus, say, classical music or jazz if it is just instrumental music.
B’ezras Hashem-the english song, the album is called the Jewish Version.
goyish music, the lyrics are usually terrible from what i hear.
Someone just told me about a song from a well known “musician” (I really even hate to call her that), where one of the lines is non-sensical. However, if you say the line fast enough, its a gross statement.
102030-
better to ask “when DIDN’T I overstep my bounds..”
(did I overstep my bounds?)
Jothar- re: Yanni “I once asked my rabbi about the rumors how he got his musical inspiration. He told me not to worry about it.”
what’s the rumor??
Music is the language of the soul. If the music you listen to inspires you to turn to Hashem and be more inspired to grow in ruchniyus, then you are listening to something worthwhile. If the music you listen to depresses you, pulls your neshama down, and gives you a feeling that is not kosher, then you shouldn’t listen to it.
Many of the plays performed by Jewish women for tzedaka take a non Jewish play, change it to resemble something kosher and use many of the same tunes as the original score. (Annie, the Wizard of Oz, etc…) Women become very inspired by these performances and buy the cd’s for home use. If there is something wrong with this, don’t you think the rabbonim would be against this practice, which is going on for over thirty years?
areivimzehlazeh … this is a honest and sincere question.
please explain to me where you feel i overstepped my bounds and how? I try my best not to
102030-
honestly? get ready cuz I can be extremely blunt
when I used to read your posts, I got a bad taste in my mouth. Then I just stopped reading your posts.
I will be dun l’kaff z’chus that it was that particular day that for some reason gave your posts a negative feeling. I should probably go back and read some more of your stuff before judging…
“oomis: the people who are listening to secular music are not going to listen to shwwekey instead if he has the same tunes (sorry but there is something nonjewish musci has that jewish music doesnt…tho there is something jewish music that nonjewish music can never have)
y cant jews create thier own tunes carlbach managed to do it?
as an aside how do they get away with it? isnt it considered stealing even according to the nonjewish law? “
I could not disagree more. I listen to music that I like. Period. If it is a tune that I always liked and Schwekey wrote jewish lyrics to it, I PREFER to listen to his version. I listen to Variations all the time, and find the lyrics very meangful. listen to the hatzalah song, “In the Middle of the Night” which is originally a Billy Joel tune. taking the mundane and elevating it is really a big part of Yiddishkeit.
as to the “stealing” issue – I imagine there is written eprmission for them to do this, or some other legality. otherwise you would be right, it would be assur.
oomis … if credit is given, it is called a cover, and the general idea is that it is ok to do
tentwenty30, I always thought the term “cover” referred to one musician performing a song originally written by another, without making substantial changes. I think oomis is referring to a Jewish musician using another musician’s tune & substituting his own lyrics.
I don’t know what “cover” is, but anon is right. permission is usually obtained to use a musician’s tune when setting someone else’s lyrics to it. It may be legally necessary only when done for commercial purposes, ask Cantoresq, because I am not a lawyer, so i really don’t knwo for certain.
areivimzehlazeh … an example please?
“Jewish Music Is Jewish?”
Is it music?
It’s one thing when a Tzaddik or a Rebbe is m’kadeish a tune from the street; or a Carlbach niggun; or adapts a waltz or a peasant’s song.
When T’fila is sung to Goyish tunes, you are in all likelyhood also thinking of the goyish words rather than the t’fila exclusively.
I am pleased to announce that I have apparently arrived – the moderator’s holding back on my posts on the Jeans thread. Maybe it was too tangential. My question is not what is Jewish music, but what is non-Jewish music? Will asterisks and Xes be liberally applied to all non-Jewish music, including Row Row Row your Boat? (Or maybe I should type, Xxx Xxx Xxx Xxxx Xxxx?)
cherry, when one honestly puts divrei kedusha to “goyishe” tunes it gets elevated. This is not my own svarah. Other gedolim past and present (The Sanzer Rav zt”l and gedolim in EY) expressed this view.
While posting on this very website, you are using the same vehicle (network cables, routers, hubs etc.) that are used for the most tomay things. WHen you travel the highways, you are using the same road as some big time baalei avairah.
Mayan_Dvash: You’re right, when the Sanzer Rav zt”l, and gedolim in EY, and other gedolim past and present, honestly puts divrei kedusha to “goyishe” tunes, it gets elevated. Not when oisvarfs put divrei kedusha to music.
tzippi, congratulations! By the way, the Jewish composer I was referring to has a last name which is the same as Germany’s capital. Maybe that’s why it was deleted.
Cherry, you misunderstood, those gedolim came up with the psak for when the hamon am honestly sing “goyishe” tunes for divrei kdusha.
Mayan_Dvash: Please support your claim.
I shall, hopefully by Monday.
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