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Akuperma, listen: 1) There are not enough jobs available at Yeshivos. Besides, Yeshivos do not make money. They live on donations. In Israel, a large part of them come from the Israeli government.
2) To start a business one needs money- a starting capital. The Israeli Chareidim don’t have them. Besides, it is quite an unstable way of making money – business can easily go up or down.
Let’s face the reality!
BTW – someone who learns in kollel is mamesh a cheftzah of Torah and should be treated like a sefer Torah.
Ah, so we should put you in the aron and leave you there until we need to open you up and read from your insides?
The Wolf
Velvel, before putting me away in an aron, I will answer in Yeshivish shprach, the cheftzah of Torah is connected to a gavrah of Totah. The cheftza can indeed be placed in an aron but not a gavrah.
I hope those who claim its an averiah to pay taxes also dont do the following, you are STEALING if you dont pay)
Call the Police or fireman (Taxes pay for them)
Ride or walk on the paved road or sidewalk (Taxes pay for them)
Ride the municipal busses (The fares are subsidized by taxes, you do not pay the actual cost of the ride when you use them)
Do not use the bathroom, Both Running water and the sewer system are paid for with taxes
Do not use the airport (Taxes on airline tickets along with other taxes pay for the airport)
and so on
Velvel, before putting me away in an aron, I will answer in Yeshivish shprach, the cheftzah of Torah is connected to a gavrah of Totah. The cheftza can indeed be placed in an aron but not a gavrah.
Hey, don’t blame me. You were the one who was haughty enough to say that he is a “living sefer Torah” and should be treated like one. If you want to make up forced interpretations to explain away the box you painted yourself into, that’s not my fault.
The Wolf
ZD,
Let’s say someone doesn’t pay taxes due to lack of income. Is he also stealing if he uses the sidewalk or running water?
“the cheftzah of Torah is connected to a gavrah of Torah” answers how I am able to enter a bais kisseh. Think about it, Rabbi Maymon surely entered a bais kisseh, yet one cannot take the sefer ha’Rambam into a bais kisseh. Why? Because Rabbi Maymon was a cheftza of Torah connected to a gavrah, while the sefer HaRambam is just a cheftzah of Torah.
There are taxes besides income taxes, Like Property taxes sales taxes (VAT in Israel) Gas tax, Airport tax etc I am sure there are other taxes in Israel Ive never even heard of.
Everyone pays some of these taxes, no matter how much money you make
Let’s say, for argument’s sake, that one legally didn’t pay any of those taxes either. Would you still say then that he’s a thief?
“and tough investigation of the in-laws”
Who has the Torah obligation to support the family?
In Israel the only way to avoid paying the VAT is to smuggle stuff in the country. It doesnt work like Sales Tax in the US , the VAT is slapped on an item either when its produced or when its imported.
We do not have a VAT here in the US so there is nothing compatible, Perhaps one of the Israelis here could explain it better than me
Jewishness Where do these low lives come from?
Naturei Karta
This is an question for an Israeli
Do the Charedim take Kupat Cholim (The National Medical Insurance)
If they do take it , do those who dont belive in the Medina also take it and if they dont who pays for medical costs
Assuming they do take Kupat Cholim (Which I honestly dont know) if you are going to advocate not paying taxes you shouldnt take that either and either raise medical bills from the non-taxpaying public or let people die from non payment of medical services
ZD,
So you’re saying that charedim do pay taxes.
Regardless, my point is that although tax money does fund certain services, those services are not “pay per use”, and nonpayment of taxes does not constitute theft of those devices.
Many of you are missing the point. Of course there is no avoiding taxes if you have an official (on the books) job. I work and pay taxes. But these Mafteach people set up camp in a learning tzibur and entice avreichim with the bait of a bigger paycheck. This, at a time when the chilonim are threatening to take them into the army, and they also use the lure of future parnosso. Whether they mean it or not, it makes Mafteach a machshir in shmad r”l. That’s worth a protest.
I would like to make 2 points:
1) Regarding Kupat Cholim – One does not “take” Kupat Cholim. You pay a fee to Bituach Leumi and you receive health coverage through that. I do not have any idea if paying these fees is part of the “anti-government” shittos, although my husband does learn in Brisk and from what I know most of the people I come in contact with through that do, in fact, have Kupat Cholim. I would compare this perhaps to Social Security/Medicare, although in EY health coverage is for everybody not just the elderly.
2) Regarding “paying taxes”. As LJ says, if you work on the books (an official job), then you will have an obligation in taxes. But for people with “low income” let’s say 1 spouse works officially and the other either learns or works unofficially, then there is such a thing as to get a “patur” from taxes. This would be the equivalent of claiming many dependents on your withholding forms for taxes by your employer, thus having basically only Social Security and Disability withheld from your check. Or, if you had a low income (again only 1 spouse working example), then when you finish with all of your exemptions and tax credits, etc, on your 1040, you are entitled to a refund (yes I know that you probably had $ withheld during the course of the year but there are probably extreme examples of people owing $0 in taxes and getting all of their withholdings back, no?).
“…my posek told me that its a mitzvah in Israel to not pay taxes if there was absolutely no chance of getting caught…. “
This psak is very distressing. The frum veldt has made great strides in recent years encouraging people to realize the inherent and unequivocal immorality of intentionally taking from others without reimbursing or reciprocating according to the accepted rules. Getting caught or not is irrelevant.
This psak reinforces the prejudiced belief that chareidim are just plain old thieves who have not yet been caught. I would have loved to say that this unfortunate belief is outright prejudice but not truthful, but I see that it is indeed still true.
Nechomah
…let’s say 1 spouse works officially and the other either learns or works unofficially…
That’s quite a euphemism.
At the end of the day if anyone thinks that cheating the government of any country (and especially Israel) from legally due taxes doesn’t leave a stain on your soul despite any justification, then you are not being honest.
And I include myself in this even though I pay all taxes and everything is on the books and i will not hire an illegal cleaner or not pay her bituach leumi. i have also refused the tefilin seller’s offer to keep TEFILLIN off the books as I refused the Talit seller to keep the TALLIT off the books when I got married and I refused the invitation seller to keep the inivitations off the books. But even I have justifications once in a while and I am not proud of them.
I will also say that in my opinion living in Israel and not participating in the country’s ups and downs, mocking everything and disparaging everything – is also not good for your soul’s health despite whatever halachic or hashkafic viewpoint you have. We are not meant to be bitter isolationists.
ZDAD: I hope those who claim its an averiah to pay taxes also dont do the following, you are STEALING if you dont pay)
If you are referring to me, my posek never said its an aveirah to pay taxes. The question is whether dina demalchusa dina applies to a secular Jewish government or not. If dina demalchusa doesn’t apply, since the government sponsors both avoda azara and chillul shabbos, it is better to not pay taxes towards those things if possible. Also, if I’m not chayav to pay taxes from halacha, I am not stealing if the gov wants to offer me services for free. Actually, I don’t have a choice of paying other police instead; last I checked the police have a monopoly.
Additionally, according to your logic, tourists are stealing if they call the cops because they don’t pay local taxes.
I never said Charedim didnt pay taxes, this was about Rav’s posekenim that paying taxes is an AVERAH.,
Its one thing if you dont earn enough to pay taxes, but its quite another if you do and you dont pay.
I only said that any “rav” who holds its an averiah to PAY taxes (when you can) doesnt benefit from the things taxes pay for.
The famous Ran in Nedarim says dina dmalchusa does not apply in Eretz Yisroel.
Tourists DO pay taxes, they pay sales taxes, Hotel Taxes , Car Rental Taxes, Airport taxes
They just dont pay income taxes
An obvious sign of Joseph is a quote from FrumTeens. Once I see that, I automaticly think the exact opposite is true.
Israel has free speech, they can protest against jobs all they want. If the stupid Zionist government is willing to throw their money at the Charaidim in exchange for their votes (similar to the democrats and Unions), that is not my problem.
FYI If Dinah D’Malchusa Dina doesnt apply to a “Secular Jewish Government”
Why obey such things as traffic laws since one could say its an averiah to stop at a stop sign or go through a red light (As long as you wont get into an accident like there are no cars around) , Why not double and triple park like they do in Brooklyn
Or just throw garbage into the street, After all what Halacha makes its assur to throw trash into the street, there is no danger throwing a candy wrapper in the street.
RR – Your attitude is commendable. I do not feel that I am a bitter isolationist and I just want to add that the limit for not earning enough to pay taxes could come from two spouses working part-time. In our economy not everyone can find jobs that pay so well. The “patur” is available for anyone to claim given that their income level is low enough. I have seen families where the wife works full-time and her children are basically the caregivers once the child comes home from the “Mayon”, “mishpachton” or “tzaharon”. Not everyone chooses to let other people raise their children so at least one of the parents (usually the mother) works part-time. I will say that a family with 6 children was entitled to make up to 100,000 shekels a year and get the patur.
Old man I would have loved to say that this unfortunate belief is outright prejudice but not truthful, but I see that it is indeed still true.
And I would love to say that you’re not a bigoted, prejudiced fool, but unfortunately, it wouldn’t be true.
P.S. Do you seriously “love” to point out prejudice? That’s kind of weird.
GAW
Actually there isnt free speech in Israel, There is no written constituion like there is in the USA. Its like the United Kingdom where there is implied constitution.
A Nazi march would not be allowed in Israel like it is the USA as they can ban it as hate speech
What does free speech have to do with this? Having a “right” does not make something any more or less correct to do.
ZD: I know its not the same, but they let the Charadim say what they want. If an Arab did what they do, then an entirely different situation would arise.
PBA: Correct? The protesters should not be Mevatel Torah for this. But I have a feeling (with uneeq) that such people don’t worry about Bitul Torah.
ZD (your posts about taxes) +1
The purpose of government is to provide the needs of society that can not be provided easily otherwise. Government has self-established rules, and ideally these rules represent the collective will of the society for which the government was formed. Included in these rules is providing for those who can not contribute as much (or perhaps any amount) due to poverty. Included are tourists, to an extent. These are basic understandable “exceptions” to the general rules. What does not fit with the general picture of government, however, is an entire group of people that, not for reasons of poverty (although admittedly they are very poor), but for reasons of ideology, do not contribute to the government while still receiving its benefits. If someone is so idealistically against a government that they will not pay taxes, and they can not live in the country without benefiting from the government, well maybe they shouldn’t live in that country.
With the rate of growth of the chareidim (I only this term because there’s no better one available, not because every self-defined chareidi lives like this), Israel will soon become what the chareidim seem to wish it be instead of what it is, i.e. a third-world country instead of a first-world country. And no, I don’t think the Israeli government is anything close to ideal, but it’s exponentially better than the alternative.
The chareidim lived in Eretz Yisroel before the zionists came.
The chareidim lived in Eretz Yisroel before the zionists came.
Without actually addressing whether or not your statement is true or not….
And the Native Americans were in North America before the Europeans. And the aboriginals were in Australia before the Europeans.
So what?
The Wolf
Under British rule – but regardless, it’s now called Israel.
(i.e. not Palestine)
Most of the Charedim in E’Y are not Yerushalmis and not decended from any of them.
Most of them came after WW II
zd: And most of the zionists came after WWII and even after ’48.
entire group of people that, not for reasons of poverty (although admittedly they are very poor), but for reasons of ideology, do not contribute to the government while still receiving its benefits.
—
They pay VAT. Reb Amram Bloy ZYA is no longer here to issue his alternative currency, and even when he did, it did not cover everything. Even with that, VAT was paid somewhere along the line as I doubt Reb Amram ZYA could rely only on underground suppliers.
I try my best not to pay VAT when I visit EY. I cannot avoid it, nor do I get a full refund at the airport. My new policy is that I will not visit EY under “shilton hakoifrim” unless I can leave there with more money than I come in with.
I am planning to go shopping for things I cannot get where I am in Paris, so I can help the beleaguered Jews there. They suffer largely because of the medine and its failure to either win a decisive victory or make lasting peace. Meanwhile, some of them are foolishly jumping from the frying pan into the fire (and shoving their kids into the frei-ing pan) by making “aliya.”
I would also rather give business to my friends back in the US (which I do via online order) who are suffering economically due to the Obama regime than contribute one penny to the coffers of the koifers.
Great point, Wolf. And the Native Americans are granted a measure of self-rule and sovereignty from the U.S. So your point must be that the Chareidim should be granted self-rule and sovereignty from the zionists.
I could not agree with you more.
The Chareidim were there before the Zionists, and did not ask for zionist rule. In fact, they are on-record as protesting the pending zionist takeover of the Holy Land. Aside from their anti-zionist stance being a well-known historical fact and the public record, this can easily be verified with pre-’48 documentation they filed with the United Nations (and is available on the U.N. website.)
The Chareidim were there first and did not seek or wish zionist rule. They ought to be exempt from it. Despite any infrastructure enhancements the government created on their own initiative.
Ive been to Paris and why a jew would rather be in Paris than Israel is beyond me and the Arabs are worse in France. At least in Israel they are a little afraid of punishment for committing a crime. In paris when an arab kills a jew, he is looked upon as a hero.
Besides Paris is just plain dirty, the Seine is disgusting
ZDAD: Why obey such things as traffic laws since one could say its an averiah to stop at a stop sign or go through a red light (As long as you wont get into an accident like there are no cars around) , Why not double and triple park like they do in Brooklyn
I’ll help you out:
Why not become a drug user?
Why not beat up children in the park?
Why not burn down forests?
Why not vomit into open convertibles?
C’mon! I usually enjoy your posts, even though I usually disagree with most of them. Though on this last one, were you really too lazy to think of a better response?
Obeying traffic laws- Venishmartem meod lenafshoteichem
Not double parking- Derech eretz
Not passing red lights even when no one is around- ever heard of a traffic ticket?
Seriously, I’m sure you could of thought of something smarter to say, no?
cantgetit – wow, this sounds really similar to the argument of another “occupied” people in Israel…
You know it’s really not that hard to be a part of a functioning society; sometimes it’s not worth starting a war over less-important ideals.
Id love to see Charedi sovereignty
Imagine a Society where nobody works and everyone is on Kollel Stipend
Imagine a society where nobody pays taxes since everyone is poor
Everoyne is either a Rebbe or Morah
Nobody is a policeman or Fireman since there is no tax base. No Army so the arabs can go right in and conquer it.
Everyone walks since there is no money for road upkeep since there is no taxes
The only construction is done by outside workers on a true torah system of no mortgages since you cant charge inerest
Cangetit, –indeed, you seem not to get it. The Chareidim there live off the government of Israel when most Israelis resent it. It is a HUGE Chillul HaShem!
Great point, Wolf. And the Native Americans are granted a measure of self-rule and sovereignty from the U.S. So your point must be that the Chareidim should be granted self-rule and sovereignty from the zionists.
I could not agree with you more.
So you think Yehoshua should have given self-rule rights to the Cannanites, right? 🙂
The Wolf
this thread is full of fail…..
Not passing red lights even when no one is around- ever heard of a traffic ticket?
According to some here Since the Zionist entity is assur and we are forbidden to follow any laws from this Koifer Government , Al Pi Halacha you are Putar from paying the traffic ticket, In fact its a great Mitzvah Not to pay
” The Chareidim were there first and did not seek or wish zionist rule. They ought to be exempt from it.”
Weak argument. I suppose you could have said that about Roman rule too, but none of the jews were exempt from that either.
I too wish to be exempted from my sovereign on the grounds that my family predated this , nonsense upstart American government (and were Tories). I too have been unsuccessful, so I know the Charedim’s plight. Maybe I need to just accept reality.
Well, if the Chareidim were first, how were they not able to convince the British Mandate to have open door policy to every Jew? Especially during the Holocaust. Or maybe they simply didn’t care about or embrace every Jew?
Hence:- B’H the wonderful Zionist were able & Zochim to institute Medinat Yisroel & open door policy to every Jew, and it is a wonderful Zechus to commemorate this auspices time each & every year on Yom ha’Atzmaut.
If this is not enough, yesterday xmas morning, Rav Reisman shlita at his Hakhel at his Shul mentioned, that whatever the pros & cons of having a Medina were before it happened, now that we B’H do have the Medina, we simply work along & go along with it. & IY’H it is here to stay, and even if we cannot make Aliya, for sure we should travel to Israel, rather than to some European destination.
It is my honor to patronize El Al, and to maximize the # of trips I make to Israel, and patronize & enhance the Israeli economy. Just as it is my honor to converse in Ivrit & maximize my practice & usage of Ivrit.
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