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Health,
You seem intent on taking Anti Semites at their words that the reason they hate Jews is really because of the pretext they give:
Do you beleive Chymlinczki that the reason he killed Jews was because they oppressed the masses?
How about Hitler who used the pretext that the Jews were communist Bolsheviks who caused Germany’s downfall in WW1
Or do you only believe the Arabs who used the pretext that they hate Jews because of Zionism?
Look at history. While Jews were persecuted in golus by all their hosts, be them Christians, Arabs or others, we got along far far better under Arab rule (until the advent of zionism in the 1920s) than under Christian rule (where we suffered pograms, officially sanctioned anti-semitism, blood libels, inquisitions, expulsions, crusades and holocausts.) Sure you can cite sporadic violence by the Arabs pre-1920s, but nothing close to a drop in the bucket to what we suffered under the Christians.
LF:
It wasn’t any harder to get in to America then it was to get into Israel post-WW2. How do you think half of today’s Jewish population ended up in the USA?
“You are missing the point: i think it would have given the Jews a place to run to.”
And be ch”v massacred in. The IDF would never have been able to stop the Nazis. So what would it have helped?
“In fact the Jews that were in Eretz Yisroel weren’t harmed by the Nazis.”
Only because there weren’t enough of them for the Nazis to make it a high priority (although even so, they came extraordinary close). If there would have been a Jewish State, the Nazis would have been much more keen on ch”v conquering and annihilating it.
“Or do you only believe the Arabs who used the pretext that they hate Jews because of Zionism?”
Forget what the Arabs say; look at what they do. For thousands of years our Sefardi brethren coexisted with the Arabs in relative peace and prosperity (particularly when compared to what the situation was like in Christian Europe at the time). But in the mere 65 years since the creation of the State of Israel, between 13,171 and 14,657 Jews were killed in the various Israeli-Arab wars, and just about every Sephardi community throughout the Arab lands was expelled, left with nothing besides what they could carry.
You really need to study harder. Ever heard of the SS St. Louis?
Kanoi Next Door,
You said
“It wasn’t any harder to get in to America then it was to get into Israel post-WW2. How do you think half of today’s Jewish population ended up in the USA?”
What are you talking about?? after 1948 once there was a state of Israel of course it was easier for a European Jew to go to Israel! They were granted an automatic citizenship in Israel with no questions asked! America was making Jews jump through hoops and sending them back to Europe.
You said
“And be ch”v massacred in. The IDF would never have been able to stop the Nazis. So what would it have helped?…Only because there weren’t enough of them for the Nazis to make it a high priority (although even so, they came extraordinary close). If there would have been a Jewish State, the Nazis would have been much more keen on ch”v conquering and annihilating it.”
You are just making up facts now. The facts are that the Germans were plenty busy in Europe and that the war ended before the Nazis could take the middle east, there is no reason to assume that they would have reached E”Y sooner had there been more Jews there. In fact it makes sense to say that if the Germans knew they were facing a powerful Organized Army allied with opposing superpowers there they probably would have hesitated even longer to go out to the middle east. They didn’t need another front with a powerful Army.
You said
“Forget what the Arabs say; look at what they do. For thousands of years our Sefardi brethren coexisted with the Arabs in relative peace and prosperity (particularly when compared to what the situation was like in Christian Europe at the time)”
First of all this idea that Muslims always treated the Jews great is myth.
Second of all so this is the pretext the Arabs used the same way the Germans used the communist thing and the Christians used money lending etc. as a pretense.
Since when did listening to Anti Semites and agreeing with their reasons for killing us become a Frum thing to do??
Mods -Again sorry for this long post, but the Zionists here are rewriting history so e/o should believe the Zionist propaganda.
Lakewood Fellow -“You seem intent on taking Anti Semites at their words that the reason they hate Jews is really because of the pretext they give:
Or do you only believe the Arabs who used the pretext that they hate Jews because of Zionism?”
Just so you should know my responses to you are not to convince you, but to prevent others from becoming infected with the Zionist delusion!
You seem to keep arguing with – “what I believe”. This has nothing to do with what I believe. This is historical fact, whether you deny it or not. The arabs/muslims, like any Goy, hates Yidden, but the desire to totally destroy them comes from their opposition to Zionism.
“Besides for being untrue as many countries and rulers who dislike Jews will do something that benefits the Jews if it is in their interest and if they are pressured enough;
You haven’t put forward a good argument as to why you believe the British would have done what no other country was willing to do namely open borders of its territories to the fleeing Jews and not find a pretext to avoid doing so like the USA and every other country did.”
Again since you never studied history – you believe the Zionist propaganda as fact. The fact is that Britain didn’t put any limit on Jewish immigration to Palestine when they first took it over. The Zionist Jew Samuel was the first one to do so. He did this to appease the arabs and then the British Gov. continued to appease the arabs by their “White paper” of ’39.
The fact is Britain adopted the Balfour Declaration because they liked Jews, not like any other country ever did. This is why they put Samuel, a Zionist, in the job of High Commissioner of Palestine. If this Zionist wouldn’t have felt the need to appease arabs -there is no reason to think that the English would have done so on their own. They wanted a Jewish state in Palestine so of course they would allow immigration of Jews there.
I’m sorry that the facts don’t jive with the Zionist propaganda that have been drilled into you since childhood!
You will see from the next article where I got my Facts from.
From Wikipedia”
“Samuel’s appointment to High Commissioner of Palestine was controversial. While the Zionists welcomed the appointment of a Zionist Jew to the post, the military government, headed by Allenby and Bols, called Samuel’s appointment “highly dangerous”.[5] Technically, Allenby noted, the appointment was illegal, in that a civil administration that would compel the inhabitants of an occupied country to express their allegiance to it before a formal peace treaty (with Turkey) was signed, was in violation of both military law and the Hague Convention.[6] Bols said the news was received with ‘(c)onsternation, despondency, and exasperation’ by the Moslem [and] Christian population … They are convinced that he will be a partisan Zionist and that he represents a Jewish and not a British Government.'[7] Allenby said that the Arabs would see it as “as handing country over at once to a permanent Zionist Administration” and predicted numerous degrees of violence. Lord Curzon read this last message to Samuel and asked him to reconsider accepting the post. (Samuel took advice from a delegation representing the Zionists which was in London at the time, who told him that these ‘alarmist’ reports were not justified. Samuel’s memoirs, p. 152.) The Muslim-Christian Association had sent a telegram to Bols:
‘Sir Herbert Samuel regarded as a Zionist leader, and his appointment as first step in formation of Zionist national home in the midst of Arab people contrary to their wishes. Inhabitants cannot recognise him, and Moslem-Christian Society cannot accept responsibility for riots or other disturbances of peace’.
The wisdom of appointing Samuel was debated in the House of Lords a day before he arrived in Palestine. Lord Curzon said that no ‘disparaging’ remarks had been made during the debate, but that ‘very grave doubts have been expressed as to the wisdom of sending a Jewish Administrator to the country at this moment’. Questions in the House of Commons of the period also show much concern about the choice of Samuel, asking amongst other things ‘what action has been taken to placate the Arab population … and thereby put an end to racial tension’. Three months after his arrival, The Morning Post wrote that ‘Sir Herbert Samuel’s appointment as High Commissioner was regarded by everyone, except Jews, as a serious mistake.’
Historic plaque on King George Street, Jerusalem, affixed in 1924 by Herbert Samuel during his term as High Commissioner of Palestine
T. E. Lawrence (a.k.a. Lawrence of Arabia) with Sir Herbert Samuel, Sheik Majid Pasha el Adwan (at far right) and Gertrude Bell (at left) at the aerodrome of Amman, April 1921
Sir Herbert Samuel, seated centre, with Jerusalem church leaders and British officials, 1922.[edit] High Commissioner of Palestine
As High Commissioner, Samuel attempted to mediate between Zionist and Arab interests, acting to slow Jewish immigration and win the confidence of the Arab population. He hoped to gain Arab participation in mandate affairs and to guard their civil and economic rights, while at the same time refusing them any authority that could be used to stop Jewish immigration and land purchase.[8] According to Wasserstein his policy was “subtly designed to reconcile Arabs to the […] pro-Zionist policy” of the British.[9] Islamic custom at the time was that the chief Islamic spiritual leader, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, was to be chosen by the temporal ruler, the Ottoman Sultan in Constantinople, from a group of clerics that were nominated by the indigenous clerics. After the British conquered Palestine, Samuel chose Hajj Amin Al Husseini, who later proved a thorn in the side of the British administration in Palestine. At the same time, he enjoyed the respect of the Jewish community, and was honored by being called to the Torah at the Hurva synagogue in the Old City of Jerusalem.[10]
[11]”
Lakewood fellow, killing Yidden was a matter of high priority to the Nazis and they were moser nefesh to do it. They almost captured Eretz Yisroel. Had there been more troops there, they would have gotten to E.Y. Hitler would have for sure sent more troops if there had been a lot of Jews there. And the German army is a formidable enemy — they are not Arabs.
Health,
This copying entire Wikipedia articles as if they prove some sort of point is kind of annoying…
You said:
“The fact is that Britain didn’t put any limit on Jewish immigration to Palestine when they first took it over.”
Yeah, because they wren’t thinking about it when they first took it over. The second the Zionists starting getting enough Jews to settle in E”Y that the British noticed they all of a sudden became “concerned” about the “stability” and “effects” that the Jews were having in the region. A trend that continues among the Goyim today.
You said,
“The fact is Britain adopted the Balfour Declaration because they liked Jews, not like any other country ever did.”
Again you believe the British loved the Jews more then any other nation. I don’t know were you get this idea from, they signed the Balfour declaration very grudgingly, under pressure and ultimately betrayed it.
Your weird insinuations that High Commissioner Samuel or any Zionist was pro the white paper of 39 is absurd as well. (Samuel was high commissioner quite a bit before 39… I’m not sure why you brought him up at all….. as far as the white paper of 22 that whitepaper was allot more then would be allowed by Britain if the Jews didn’t compromise and blew the whole thing-contrary to what you seem to believe Britain was looking for a way out of the Balfour declaration almost as soon as they were pushed into issuing it)
Mdd,
you said
“Hitler would have for sure sent more troops if there had been a lot of Jews there. And the German army is a formidable enemy — they are not Arabs.”
From were?? Germany was fighting for survival against just about every superpower in the world, and lost before they could take the middle east. There is no reason to believe that the outcome of WW2 would have been any different had there been more European Jews in E”Y except that the Jews in E”Y probably would have survived the war and for sure would have been out of the reach of the Nazis.
Besides this method of trying to find something wrong that a Zionist leader did or a bad judgement call that one made and pointing to that as if it proves that the idea of making a Jewish state is a bad one, or that the Jewish state does not benefit Jewry; has the same amount of validity as pointing to a Frum Rov who did a bad thing or made a bad judgement call and saying that the fact that a Rov made a bad decision (Like telling Jews to stay in Europe before ww2 for example) proves that Frum Jewry is bad….
Which is to say that it has no validity and is not an argument.
LF:
I think that if fully half the of the Jews from Europe made it into America, it would have been far easier for the rest to do so than you’re making it out to be. But point taken.
“You are just making up facts now.”
I believe the technical term is “speculation”.
Oh, and suggesting that the IDF could have prevented the Holocaust is…
“The facts are that the Germans were plenty busy in Europe and that the war ended before the Nazis could take the middle east, there is no reason to assume that they would have reached E”Y sooner had there been more Jews there.”
I don’t know, they seemed to be willing to devote a whole lot of effort towards wiping us out. If there would have been a significant Jewish population in what was then known as Palestine, I think the Nazis would have had much more of an incentive to conquer it.
“In fact it makes sense to say that if the Germans knew they were facing a powerful Organized Army allied with opposing superpowers there they probably would have hesitated even longer to go out to the middle east.”
They had no problem starting up with the French, the English, the Americans, and the Russians (all of them world-class powers)… at the same time. Do you honestly think the IDF would’ve scared them away?
“First of all this idea that Muslims always treated the Jews great is myth.”
Yes, it was never paradise (although it was better in the Arab lans then it was anywhere else). But they weren’t usually killing 14,000 of us in the span of 65 years, or expelling every last Sefardi community. That only happened after the State of Israel was created.
“Second of all so this is the pretext the Arabs used”
Again, forget what they say; look at what they do, and how that compares to how they treated us pre-1948.
“Since when did listening to Anti Semites and agreeing with their reasons for killing us become a Frum thing to do??”
I do not in any way endorse the Arabs’ excuses for wanting to murder us. I’m just saying it wasn’t the greatest idea to provoke them.
This is a war by proxy which (due to extreme lack for time) ought to be cut to the chase.
There are some who will use any rationalization, infinite apologia to blur their antipathy for the giver of the Torah and his adherents.
TKND,
You said
“Oh, and suggesting that the IDF could have prevented the Holocaust is…”
That’s not what I’m suggesting and you know it. I’m suggesting that the Jews could have fled to E”Y and safety if there had been a state there that would take them in as Israel would.
There is no reason to assume that the Nazis would have been able to take the middle east just because there was more Jews there. It’s not like they had tons of resources to spare that they just weren’t bringing out because they didn’t think they needed them.
You said
“Again, forget what they say; look at what they do, and how that compares to how they treated us pre-1948.”
And look how the Jews were treated by the Germans before the Germans were defeated in WW1. Will you blame the Holocaust on Bolshevik Jews like the Neo Nazis do??
“Germany was fighting for survival against just about every superpower in the world”
Not until Hitler y”s was stupid enough to invade the Soviet Union. Had he put resources into the Middle East he could have consolidated control there (remember that Algeria was a part of France, Morocco and Tunisia were French protectorates, Syria and Lebanon were French League of Nations Mandates, and Libya was an Italian colony. Egypt had been independent since 1922 and it was necessary for the British to stage a bloodless coup in 1942 to get a more cooperative government.
“I think the Nazis would have had much more of an incentive to conquer it.”
They wanted to. Had Rommel been given the supplies he wanted, he probably would have — he was Hitler’s best general. Only the British stopping them in Egypt prevented a massacre in Eretz Yisrael.
“The British didn’t write it due to any love of Jews”
Actually, the two most important British leaders at the time — PM David Lloyd-George and FM Arthur Balfour — both fancied themselves as philo-Semites. Lloyd-George in particular seems to have enjoyed thinking of himself as the man who would return Jews to the Holy Land. Winston Churchill also fancied himself a philo-Semite but he had little input into anything at that time.
Also worth noting was that the French PM at the time, Georges Clemenceau, also liked Jews — he was the newspaper publisher who published Emile Zola’s famous “J’Accuse” defense of Dreyfus. He liked the idea of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, too.
Charliehall, yasher koach! Probably, another 3-5 divisions would have been enough for Rommel. The Germans were almost there.
charliehall -“Actually, the two most important British leaders at the time — PM David Lloyd-George and FM Arthur Balfour — both fancied themselves as philo-Semites. Lloyd-George in particular seems to have enjoyed thinking of himself as the man who would return Jews to the Holy Land. Winston Churchill also fancied himself a philo-Semite but he had little input into anything at that time.”
CH, thank you; no matter what your political leanings at least you speak the truth, not like other zionists.
Lakewood Fellow -“This copying entire Wikipedia articles as if they prove some sort of point is kind of annoying…”
And your constant repetition of the Zionist propaganda lies is even more annoying.
“Yeah, because they wren’t thinking about it when they first took it over. The second the Zionists starting getting enough Jews to settle in E”Y that the British noticed they all of a sudden became “concerned” about the “stability” and “effects” that the Jews were having in the region. A trend that continues among the Goyim today.”
Another fabrication by you or you got it from official Zionists?
If you would have read the article you would have seen the first person in the English Gov. to start limiting the immigration was Samuel, not some antisemitic Englishman. And even after this point – the British Gov. went on to write the white paper of ’22 and then make the Balfour declaration. So enough with your Zionist lies that it was the antisemitic English Gov. who started with limiting the immigration -it was this Zionist guy Samuel. The fact that they continued it doesn’t make them any more antisemitic than him.
“Again you believe the British loved the Jews more then any other nation. I don’t know were you get this idea from, they signed the Balfour declaration very grudgingly, under pressure and ultimately betrayed it.”
It’s not my belief, it’s obvious from the facts. Noone gives a religion/nation a homeland because s/o else told them to. They did it because they wanted to. So they aren’t as antisemitic as you claim.
“Your weird insinuations that High Commissioner Samuel or any Zionist was pro the white paper of 39 is absurd as well. (Samuel was high commissioner quite a bit before 39… I’m not sure why you brought him up at all….. as far as the white paper of 22 that whitepaper was allot more then would be allowed by Britain if the Jews didn’t compromise and blew the whole thing-contrary to what you seem to believe Britain was looking for a way out of the Balfour declaration almost as soon as they were pushed into issuing it)”
You obviously didn’t really read my post -I didn’t really think you would -the truth is painful.
I just posted this a few lines ago, perhaps if I repost it -it will sink in- “If you would have read the article you would have seen the first person in the English Gov. to start limiting the immigration was Samuel, not some antisemitic Englishman. And even after this point – the British Gov. went on to write the white paper of ’22 and then make the Balfour declaration.”
Which zionist or which zionist school drilled it into your head that the English were really antisemites? They became that way after they saw what the Zionists really were. Did you ever hear of Jewish terrorists before the creation of the Medina?
“Oh no, the only terrorists are Muslims.”
Just so you know -there are some of us who can see through Zionist propaganda even if many Jews swear by this Idol – Zionism.
cool it and try to shorten your posts
Mod -this post wasn’t long -look at my posts above.
Health,
You said
“the first person in the English Gov. to start limiting the immigration was Samuel, not some antisemitic Englishman.”
Yes because he believed that not shaking things up too much too fast with the British and Arabs was the smartest idea. It wasn’t out of some kind of desire to have less Jews in the Holy Land.
As an aside while the British were busy enforcing the white paper quotas on the Jews they were ignoring mass illegal Arab immigration into Palestine. It was their way of getting out of the commitments they made to the Jews-flood Palestine with hostile Arabs and let them do the dirty work
You said,
“It’s not my belief, it’s obvious from the facts. Noone gives a religion/nation a homeland because s/o else told them to. They did it because they wanted to. So they aren’t as antisemitic as you claim.”
Sure. They give it if they feel it will benefit them, they are pressured or if they are forced to give it up (Which ultimately is what happened. The Balfour declaration was a far cry from giving the Jews a country.
If you want to believe that British Goyim have some sort of special love for the Jews you can… I just can’t for the life of me figure out why…
“They became that way after they saw what the Zionists really were. Did you ever hear of Jewish terrorists before the creation of the Medina?”
You mean like Menachem Begin? You’re really on the side of the British on that one???? I’m sort of at a loss here.
I had one guy here saying that he didn’t blame the Americans for turning away Jews during the Holocaust because “The Jews are a bunch of socialist communists”
and now I have you are saying that the only reason the Arabs and British didn’t like Jews is because of “Jew Terrorists”
Yeah whatever… I just never realized that the newest in thing was to find ways to blame Jews for Goyim hating and killing them
You gotta love these wikipedia posts and the blind faith that “Health” has in them. We have now proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that El-Husseini was a murderous anti-Semite who believed all Jews anywhere in the world should be dead. It must be the zionists’ fault (the same as the zionists are to blame for the holocaust and every other Jewish tragedy).
Did you know that Stalin was nominated for the Nobel peace prize? That must mean he was a saint.
Health,
This idea that since some early Zionists in the process of making a state thought it was a good idea to slowly ease into the region and not just declare a state outright to the Pretty hostile English and the very hostile Arabs has no bearing on what would have happened had there been a state of Israel earlier.
The fact remains that Israel is the only country that allows Jews to settle in its borders and grants them citizenship simply by virtue of them being Jews.
If there was a state during WW2, there would of course have been no immigration quotas in the state, just like every religious, not religious and even anti Zionist Jew is given the right to settle is Israel now with no questions asked-just because they are Jewish.
Health,
One more point, I happen to sympathize more with the Menachem Begin approach that trying to negotiate with and appease the British and Arabs into giving the Jews a state would have never worked and was a waste of time, but it wasn’t so clear to most people right away.
They figured (much like you do) that the British and Arabs weren’t really against the idea of giving the Jews a state and that they just had some valid “concerns” about the “stability” of the region and that if we would just compromise with them they would give us a state.
It took the British doing their best to flood E”Y with hostile Arabs while enforcing white paper after white paper only on Jewish immigration for most people (including Ben Hecht whose innacurate book perfidy which he put out to discredit Ben Gurion’s governement becasue he beleived that the Irgun (the people you call “Jewish Terorists”) should have been in charge of Israel is loved by people like you) to realize that trying to negotiate with the British was not going anywere
Lakewood Fellow -“Yes because he believed that not shaking things up too much too fast with the British and Arabs was the smartest idea. It wasn’t out of some kind of desire to have less Jews in the Holy Land.
As an aside while the British were busy enforcing the white paper quotas on the Jews they were ignoring mass illegal Arab immigration into Palestine. It was their way of getting out of the commitments they made to the Jews-flood Palestine with hostile Arabs and let them do the dirty work”
More lies. In your desire to make the Zionists right you keep lying. Since you’re so brainwashed you can’t see that the English limited Jewish immigration to Palestine for the same reason as Samuel – to appease the arabs. It wasn’t antisemitism.
And the reason the British didn’t enforce illegal Arab immigration was because to make secure borders for Palestine would cost too much money and resources like manpower. It’s much easier to stop some boat from landing in Palestine than it was to keep the arabs out. I know I must be wrong and those darned English Antisemites.
“Sure. They give it if they feel it will benefit them, they are pressured or if they are forced to give it up (Which ultimately is what happened. The Balfour declaration was a far cry from giving the Jews a country.
If you want to believe that British Goyim have some sort of special love for the Jews you can… I just can’t for the life of me figure out why…”
And I can’t for the life of me figure out how come you believe all the Zionist propaganda. The Balfour declaration was exactly that a plan to give Jews a country. You keep on with this nonsense that they were pressured into it and didn’t really want to do it. Noone does something they don’t want to. The historical facts are they wanted to give the Jews a homeland. Repeating the same lies doesn’t change the historical facts.
“You mean like Menachem Begin? You’re really on the side of the British on that one???? I’m sort of at a loss here.”
What you believe now in terrorism? It’s ok by you? Did you ever open up a Chumash? Did you also praise the guy who killed Rabin? After all he was only a terrorist.
“and now I have you are saying that the only reason the Arabs and British didn’t like Jews is because of “Jew Terrorists””
Let’s get it straight -the British never hated the Jews. After the Jews started with terrorism – I’m sure this didn’t increase their love towards Jews. The arabs only started hating Jews vehemently because they were against Zionism. This is historical fact, no matter how much you deny it.
“Yeah whatever… I just never realized that the newest in thing was to find ways to blame Jews for Goyim hating and killing them”
No, I’m not blaming Jews per se – I’m blaming Zionism. And I’ve proven it. They are not one in the same, no matter how much you believe that they are!
Lakewood Fellow -“This idea that since some early Zionists in the process of making a state thought it was a good idea to slowly ease into the region and not just declare a state outright to the Pretty hostile English and the very hostile Arabs has no bearing on what would have happened had there been a state of Israel earlier.”
Nonsense! The English weren’t hostile. And the arabs were only hostile due to zionism.
“The fact remains that Israel is the only country that allows Jews to settle in its borders and grants them citizenship simply by virtue of them being Jews. If there was a state during WW2, there would of course have been no immigration quotas in the state, just like every religious, not religious and even anti Zionist Jew is given the right to settle is Israel now with no questions asked-just because they are Jewish.”
Yes, but they don’t allow them to be Jews in their homeland. Look what they did to Frum Jews coming out of arab lands. They almost all Shmad them. Now they don’t because of the improvments that the Charedim have done in the Israeli Gov.
So Zionists like you want to go back to the good ole days of Shmad and that’s why you voted in the likes of Lapid & Bennett. They want to go back to the good ole days when Israel didn’t have a Jewish (Halachic) face!
ifti99 -“You gotta love these wikipedia posts and the blind faith that “Health” has in them. We have now proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that El-Husseini was a murderous anti-Semite who believed all Jews anywhere in the world should be dead. It must be the zionists’ fault (the same as the zionists are to blame for the holocaust and every other Jewish tragedy).”
The historical facts are that the Mufti became Antisemitic due to his opposition of Zionism. I’m sorry that the facts don’t coincide with Zionist beliefs, but they are still the facts!
Lakewood Fellow -“One more point, I happen to sympathize more with the Menachem Begin approach that trying to negotiate with and appease the British and Arabs into giving the Jews a state would have never worked and was a waste of time, but it wasn’t so clear to most people right away.”
It’s very sad to me to read that a Jew believes/sympathizes in terrorism. Yes, this is exactly the reason all terrorists give because it’s a means to an end. Why are you any different than any arab/muslim terrorist like Al Quaida? They also give this excuse that it’s a means to an end. The world must be crazy because they think terrorism is against e/o’s moral code! And the wars that the US is in right now was declared a war against terrorism by President Bush. I guess you hold the US is unjustified in their war against Terror!
Lakewood Jew wrote:
“If there was a state during WW2, there would of course have been no immigration quotas in the state, just like every religious, not religious and even anti Zionist Jew is given the right to settle is Israel now with no questions asked-just because they are Jewish.”
Are you so sure about that? You must not have read the various Zionist quotes such as (but not limited to) the following:
You can Google some of the words below, if you’re interested.
Zionist leader Chaim Weizmann, later to become the first president of Israel, reporting to the Zionist Congress in 1937 on his testimony before the Peel Commission in London, July 1937. Cited in Yahya, p. 55:
[for Palestine]. The old ones will pass. They will bear their fate or they will not. They are dust, economic and moral dust in a cruel world … Only the branch of the young shall survive.”
Health,
You said,
“The Balfour declaration was exactly that a plan to give Jews a country.”
No, it wasn’t at all. Read about it a little more. The British were clear that there was no intention “to set up a Jewish Republic or any other form of state in Palestine or in any part of Palestine”. Churchill was clear on this as well. They had no interest in there being a Jewish Government or all, let alone a Jewish defense force or Jews having a right to settle in Palestine.
You said,
“Let’s get it straight -the British never hated the Jews. After the Jews started with terrorism – I’m sure this didn’t increase their love towards Jews. The arabs only started hating Jews vehemently because they were against Zionism.”
Riggghhht… and the Germans treated Jews great before the Germans were defeated in WW1 and the Jewish led Bolshevik communist revolution happened. So the German’s hate of Jews was probably due to those degenerate Jewish commies trying to take over Europe…. every Anti Semite uses some pretense, Zionism was the Britsh and Arab’s. Why you believe them is beyond me
Health: “Let’s get it straight -the British never hated the Jews. After the Jews started with terrorism – I’m sure this didn’t increase their love towards Jews. The arabs only started hating Jews vehemently because they were against Zionism. This is historical fact, no matter how much you deny it.”
Really?
Ever hear of the York massacre?
The completion expulsion of Jews from England for over 350 years?
The revocation of giving Jews citizenship in 1754 just a year after it passed (it was revoked due to British Anti-Semitism)?
And more recently, here’s some information from your favorite website:
“Though there was some growing anti-semitism during the 1930s, this was counterbalanced by strong support for British Jews in their local communities leading to events such as the Battle of Cable Street where anti-semitism was strongly resisted by Jews who fought it out on the street with Fascists elements. Consistent with its complex history, Britain was not particularly receptive to Jewish refugees fleeing the Nazi regime in Germany, and the other fascist states of Europe. Approximately 40,000 Jews from Austria and Germany were eventually allowed to settle in Britain before the War, in addition to 50,000 Jews from Italy, Poland, and elsewhere in Eastern Europe. Despite the increasingly dire warnings coming from Germany, at the Evian Conference of 1938, Britain refused to allow further Jewish refugees into the country.”
Gee, I didn’t realize that Herzl and his followers have been around for hundreds of years.
Health,
You said
“Did you also praise the guy who killed Rabin? After all he was only a terrorist.”
The fact that you could compare Yigal Amir to someone like Menachem Begin who refused to fire back at Jews even when he was being fired upon by them because “Jews don’t kill other Jews” shows such a lack of knowledge in the history of Zionism and history of Israel that I am not even sure how to respond to it.
Besides the whole premise you are using to argue that Zionism is bad is a flawed one as I pointed out in an earlier comment:
Finding something wrong that a Zionist leader did or a bad judgement call that one made and pointing to that as if it proves that the idea of making a Jewish state is a bad one, Zionism is bad, or that the Jewish state does not benefit Jewry; has the same amount of validity as pointing to a Frum Rov who did a bad thing or made a bad judgement call and saying that the fact that a Rov made a bad decision proves that Frum Jewry is bad….
Which is to say that it has no validity and is not an argument.
Health,
You said
“Why are you any different than any arab/muslim terrorist like Al Quaida?”
Again the fact that you can compare the Irgun’s activities against Military targets of people who were actively siding with the Arabs against the Jews and making it impossible for the Jews to defend themselves with Muslims blowing up buses, planes and buildings with the express goal of killing as many innocent woman and children as possible shows an astounding lack of knowledge in the history of what actually happened.
(yes I know about the King David hotel so don’t start… The British were warned to evacuate the Hotel hours before the attack but they refused because “They didn’t take orders from Jews” and the Hotel was being used by the British for military purposes)
With all due respect, You really should learn some more history…
LF, the Nazis didn’t have a tremendous lack of soldiers; they merely didn’t have enough to defeat the rest of the world put together. They certainly would have allocated resources towards crushing a Jewish State, just as they managed to have the concentration camps up and running to the very end. Would this have caused the Third Reich to come to its end somewhat faster? Probably, but that wouldn’t have stopped them from doing it any more than it stopped them from devoting soldiers to running the camps.
TKND,
I think they had used all of their resources and Rommel couldn’t get the necessary resources to fight in E”Y. I don’t see why more Jews being there would have changed this situation, the Germans were pretty maxed out. You believe they could have pulled more resources from somewhere I disagree, we are going in circles here
Lakewood Fellow, the point is that to argue that had there been a state everything would have been great is a poor argument — too many things had to work out just the right way for the Yishuv to be safed. The arguments you are advancing are easy to refute. Hitler could have sent early on — before June 1941– a large force to capture E.Y or he would have sent the nessesary couple of divisions to help Rommel had there been more Jews there.
From 11 years before the first Destruction to the present day, Torah Judaism has survived by recognizing political realities. The realities have been Bavel, Hordus, Rome in earlier days. It has now been 65 years, longer than the Bavel era; and we have a Coffeeroom full of supposedly frum Jews who have not accepted the reality of the Jewish State. They need to quietly leave, and not say anything that will make it worse for the Torah Jews who remain behind.
Mdd,
I am not saying that everything would have been great, but I do think that many European Jews would have had a better chance of survival if they had a place in E”Y they could flee too. You believe Hitler would and could have diverted more units to fight for E”Y had there been more Jews there. I don’t think so.
I also think having an Israeli Army allied with Germany’s enemies like the USA and/Britain would have fought just as good as the British did alone, and that there is no reason to assume that an Israeli Army would not have been assisted by Allied armys who shared a common enemy with them, and made things more difficult for the Germans.
I think we are both arguing something neither of us can PROVE and we are going in circles here….
Exactly, LF. You can’t just say that the state would have for sure been a panacea — too many uncertainties and variables there. And then, again, remember the Gamorah in Pesochim.
To be honest, while I do NOT think that Zionism is the main cause of hatred toward Jews in the world, there IS historical evidence pointing to the declaration of the State as a trigger for anti-Jewish rioting in Arab lands. For example, there’s an excellent chapter in Matti Friedman’s awesome book on the Aleppo Codex which talks about the instigation of the riot in which the shul containing the codex was destroyed, along with much of the Aleppan community- the riot began as a direct result of the 1947 UN recognition of Israel in Flushing Meadow. Admit that it can’t be pleasant to see you not exactly best buddies getting land that you thought your coreligionists were supposed to get. That’s not to say that relationships between the Arabs and Jewis in Syria before the riot were all that rosy, but increased aggression DID result from the declaration of the State.
However, personally, looking at patterns in history, I would say (and this is just my opinion from observation and a LOT of obsessive reading- this is just my thing 🙂 ) that while the State might have instigated anti-Jewish feeling, so did pretty much every good thing that ever happened to the Jews or any bad thing that ever happened to the non-Jews. Think about the Black Death. A third to a half of the European population is dying painfully. Not as many Jews seem to be dying (whether it’s because they really did have better hygiene and it helped or whether their deaths just weren’t as noticeable in the scheme of things due to heir small numbers), so what happens? A wave of pogroms. Communities were decimated as a result.
Either way- no matter what, whether Israel’s creation did aggravate the Arabs and cause them to turn against us more (though they definitely weren’t strting from scratch, even if that’s so) or not, right now we’ve got a state, and there’s nothing we can do about it except for support it and make sure that our 6 million acheinu kol beis Yisrael living there are supported and not harmed. (And yes, Health, I’ve heard about your plan to turn the State over to Turkey, and a while back I already told you what I thought about it.)
Lakewood Fellow -“No, it wasn’t at all. Read about it a little more. The British were clear that there was no intention “to set up a Jewish Republic or any other form of state in Palestine or in any part of Palestine”. Churchill was clear on this as well. They had no interest in there being a Jewish Government or all, let alone a Jewish defense force or Jews having a right to settle in Palestine.”
It’s amazing to me how you have no embarrassment to lie so openly, just so you should be right.
This from a Website called Zionism Israel -obviously from Zionists:
“In his introduction to Nahum Sokolow’s History of Zionism, Balfour makes it clear that he supported the project of a “national home” for the Jewish people because he believed it was just.”
I know these zionists are lying and they are really Anti-zionists.
“Riggghhht… and the Germans treated Jews great before the Germans were defeated in WW1 and the Jewish led Bolshevik communist revolution happened. So the German’s hate of Jews was probably due to those degenerate Jewish commies trying to take over Europe…. every Anti Semite uses some pretense, Zionism was the Britsh and Arab’s. Why you believe them is beyond me”
I have no idea why Germans hated Jews the way they did, but the arabs, in the early part of this century, hated Jews due to Zionism.
ifti99 -“Really?
Ever hear of the York massacre?
The completion expulsion of Jews from England for over 350 years?
The revocation of giving Jews citizenship in 1754 just a year after it passed (it was revoked due to British Anti-Semitism)?”
Yes, so they were once antisemitic, what does it have to do with the early part of this century? When I said never that meant in the time period we were discussing.
“Though there was some growing anti-semitism during the 1930s, this was counterbalanced by strong support for British Jews in their local communities leading to events such as the Battle of Cable Street where anti-semitism was strongly resisted by Jews who fought it out on the street with Fascists elements. Consistent with its complex history, Britain was not particularly receptive to Jewish refugees fleeing the Nazi regime in Germany, and the other fascist states of Europe. Approximately 40,000 Jews from Austria and Germany were eventually allowed to settle in Britain before the War, in addition to 50,000 Jews from Italy, Poland, and elsewhere in Eastern Europe. Despite the increasingly dire warnings coming from Germany, at the Evian Conference of 1938, Britain refused to allow further Jewish refugees into the country.”
This is totally irrevelant. How about posting a whole European history book here? So there were fascists living in Britain -so what? And the fact that they didn’t agree to letting in as many Jews as possible into England doesn’t mean without the arabs hounding them that they would have adopted the same policy in Palestine.
writersoul -“(And yes, Health, I’ve heard about your plan to turn the State over to Turkey, and a while back I already told you what I thought about it.)”
Funny I don’t recall asking your opinion about my idea. Yes, you have that right on YWN to state your opinion, but you seem to imply that you are given the final say on others’ opinions.
I don’t need you to ok my idea for me to post it or have it.
So I’m not really interested what you think about it. The fact is getting rid of the Medina will put most of the Muslim world at peace with the Jews. You just can’t give it directly to the arabs because their hatred has been brewing for close to or over 100 years and there will be a massacre. Turkey only became an official enemy of Israel 2 years ago.
Lakewood Fellow -“The fact that you could compare Yigal Amir to someone like Menachem Begin who refused to fire back at Jews even when he was being fired upon by them because “Jews don’t kill other Jews” shows such a lack of knowledge in the history of Zionism and history of Israel that I am not even sure how to respond to it.”
You so missed my point. I didn’t compare terrorist to terrorist. Some can be worse than others. I compared you to the arab world. They are indifferent to terrorism and so are you! Terrorism is subhuman whether the terrorist is a Muslim or a Jew!
“Besides the whole premise you are using to argue that Zionism is bad is a flawed one as I pointed out in an earlier comment:
Finding something wrong that a Zionist leader did or a bad judgement call that one made and pointing to that as if it proves that the idea of making a Jewish state is a bad one, Zionism is bad, or that the Jewish state does not benefit Jewry; has the same amount of validity as pointing to a Frum Rov who did a bad thing or made a bad judgement call and saying that the fact that a Rov made a bad decision proves that Frum Jewry is bad….
Which is to say that it has no validity and is not an argument.”
You are so misguided – I honestly don’t know where to start. The main problem with Zionism, in the form that it was started, is that it is/was based on Kefira. It has nothing to do with the individuals that represent them, even though there is nothing wrong in showing e/o their faults.
Health: are you being silly again?
ifti99: I would just let Health type and don’t respond to him.
Lakewood Fellow -“Again the fact that you can compare the Irgun’s activities against Military targets of people who were actively siding with the Arabs against the Jews and making it impossible for the Jews to defend themselves with Muslims blowing up buses, planes and buildings with the express goal of killing as many innocent woman and children as possible shows an astounding lack of knowledge in the history of what actually happened.
(yes I know about the King David hotel so don’t start… The British were warned to evacuate the Hotel hours before the attack but they refused because “They didn’t take orders from Jews” and the Hotel was being used by the British for military purposes)
With all due respect, You really should learn some more history…”
It seems to me you are the one changing history. Just FYI, Irgun was one of a few Jewish terrorist groups. The Jewish terrorists attacked civilains along with military targets -this is why they are terrorists. And you believe it’s ok to be a terrorist as long as they are fighting for what you believe in. You are no different than most of the arab world. Terrorism perpertrated by anyone, Jew or Not, is more than just Not Okay!
Health,
First of all you ignored most of the points I brought up in my last posts
Second of all it is apparent that you don’t really know anything about the History of Israel, Zionism or the middle east but if you would even just read the Wikipedia article on the Balfour declaration you would see that you are wrong. There is a big difference between a “national homeland” and an independent Jewish state, complete with an Army.
This is besides the point that the majority of the British cabinet opposed even making the small gesture that this declaration was.
And now in order to speak to you on your level here is a quote from the wiki article
“The records of discussions that led up to the final text of the Balfour Declaration clarifies some details of its wording. The phrase “national home” was intentionally used instead of “state” because of opposition to the Zionist program within the British Cabinet. Following discussion of the initial draft the Cabinet Secretary, Mark Sykes, met with the Zionist negotiators to clarify their aims. His official report back to the Cabinet categorically stated that the Zionists did not want “to set up a Jewish Republic or any other form of state in Palestine or in any part of Palestine”.[18] Both the Zionist Organization and the British government devoted efforts over the following decades, including Winston Churchill’s 1922 White Paper, to denying that a state was the intention.[19]”
Health you said,
“Just FYI, Irgun was one of a few Jewish terrorist groups. The Jewish terrorists attacked civilains along with military targets -this is why they are terrorists. And you believe it’s ok to be a terrorist as long as they are fighting for what you believe in. You are no different than most of the arab world. Terrorism perpertrated by anyone, Jew or Not, is more than just Not Okay!”
OK do you mind naming ONE Jewish Zionist group that officially conducted operations blowing up anything but military targets?
Can you name one that praised or committed any attack that clearly targeted civilians (like blowing up civilian airliners or buses etc.)
Go ahead Name one
Health,
You said,
“I compared you to the arab world. They are indifferent to terrorism and so are you! Terrorism is subhuman whether the terrorist is a Muslim or a Jew!”
I guess you don’t know the meaning of the word “Terrorism”.
Allow me to explain:
Muslim terrorists kill civilians in order to terrorize them into getting their governments to do what they want.
For example they will blow up an Airliner filled with innocent American families.
Or blow up Towers full of thousands of innocent people going to work.
Or throw old helpless innocent men in wheelchairs off of cruise-liners.
That is NOT ok in any circumstances and no one says it is.
Now Blowing up supply trains providing an enemy with supplies or blowing up military bases etc. of people who oppress you is totally different and isn’t Terrorism.
This is the type of activity some early Zionists were involved in.
Comparing it to Muslim Terrorism is ridiculous.
Health,
You said
“I have no idea why Germans hated Jews the way they did, but the arabs, in the early part of this century, hated Jews due to Zionism.”
The Jews must have brought it on themselves in both cases though huh…
I can’t believe I am seeing Jews post such drivel on Jewish sites
Lakewood Fellow -“Second of all it is apparent that you don’t really know anything about the History of Israel, Zionism or the middle east but if you would even just read the Wikipedia article on the Balfour declaration you would see that you are wrong. There is a big difference between a “national homeland” and an independent Jewish state, complete with an Army.”
You are chasing your tail. I never was arguing on this fact, even if I used the word “State”. My argument with you was about Jewish immigration to Palestine. You probably have even forgotten this because you have confused yourself with your many, many lies.
Here is more proof about their intentions of Jewish immigration.
From the Jewish Virtual library:
“The Mandate for Palestine’s purpose was to put into effect the Balfour Declaration. It specifically referred to “the historical connections of the Jewish people with Palestine” and to the moral validity of “reconstituting their National Home in that country.” The term “reconstituting” shows recognition of the fact that Palestine had been the Jews’ home. Furthermore, the British were instructed to “use their best endeavors to facilitate” Jewish immigration, to encourage settlement on the land and to “secure” the Jewish National Home. The word “Arab” does not appear in the Mandatory award.
The Mandate was formalized by the 52 governments at the League of Nations on July 24, 1922.”
Lakewood Fellow -“OK do you mind naming ONE Jewish Zionist group that officially conducted operations blowing up anything but military targets?
Can you name one that praised or committed any attack that clearly targeted civilians (like blowing up civilian airliners or buses etc.)
Go ahead Name one”
And what happens when I do? Are you going to have a political change of heart? Of course Not. We will just be subjected to more Zionist propaganda & lies.
But I’m not doing for you or the Zionist ilk -I’m doing it so all the readers here in the CR know the Truth!
From Wikipedia – a timelime of the major Jewish terrorist attacks:
[29] for his anti-Zionist political activities and contacts with Arab leaders.[30]
[citation needed]
July 15, 1938*, a bomb left in the vegetable market in Jerusalem by the Irgun injured 28[31]
July 25, 1938* the Irgun threw a bomb into the melon market in Haifa resulting in 49 deaths[32]
November 6, 1944 Lehi assassinated British minister Lord Moyne in Cairo. The action is condemned by the Yishuv at the time, but the bodies of the assassins are brought home from Egypt in 1975 to a state funeral and burial on Mount Herzl.[citation needed]
1946 Railways and British military airfields were attacked several times.
October 31, 1946 The bombing by the Irgun of the British Embassy in Rome. Nearly half the building was destroyed and 3 people were injured.[33]
April1947* an Irgun bomb placed at the Colonial Office in London failed to detonate.[34]
July 25, 1947 The Sergeants affair: When death sentences were passed on two Irgun members, the Irgun kidnapped Sgt. Clifford Martin and Sgt. Mervyn Paice and threatened to kill them in retaliation if the sentences were carried out. When the threat was ignored, the hostages were murdered. Afterwards, their bodies were taken to an orange grove and left hanging by the neck from trees. An Improvised Explosive Device was set. This went off when one of the bodies was cut down, seriously wounding a British officer.[35]
April 1948 the Deir Yassin massacre carried out by the Irgun and Lehi, killed between 107 and 120 Palestinian villagers,[36] the estimate generally accepted by scholars.[37][38]
September 17, 1948, Lehi assassination of the United Nations mediator Count Bernadotte, negotiator of the release of about 31,000 prisoners including thousands of Jews from German concentration camps during World War II,[39][40] whom Lehi accused of a pro-Arab stance during the cease-fire negotiations.”
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