Joining Litvishe

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  • #1696678

    writer
    Participant

    So if one wants to go about joining the Litvish way, what are some suggestions?

    #1696710

    Joseph
    Participant

    Many (perhaps even close to a majority) who today call themselves Litvish are actually from Chasidish/heimish families. They come from Hungary, Poland, Ukraine, Austria, Czechoslovakia, etc., where their grandfathers or great-grandfathers were Chasidim or Oberlander.

    #1696728

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    Make sure to learn שמירת הלשון from the chofetz chaim.

    #1696724

    laskern
    Participant

    I figure you want to learn about חקירות. get the sefer http://www.hebrewbooks.org/51941 and the sefer
    http:/www.hebrewbooks.org/42885.

    #1696736

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Move to Lakewood Ir HaKodesh

    #1696788

    Uncle Ben
    Participant

    Another troll thread?

    #1696860

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Joseph on this thread:
    “Many (perhaps even close to a majority) who today call themselves Litvish are actually from Chasidish/heimish families. They come from Hungary, Poland, Ukraine, Austria, Czechoslovakia, etc., where their grandfathers or great-grandfathers were Chasidim or Oberlander.”

    Joseph on the other thread:
    “This is a falsity. Halachicly one should not change from his father’s derech, minhagim, etc. That a requirement.”

    #1696867

    Joseph
    Participant

    One is a statement of fact. And one is a statement of Halacha.

    #1696870

    !. There is a 15 page application form.

    2. Membership fees can m=be sent to Kupas HaGoldenpupik.

    3. Ashkenaz only – Borch Sh’Omar before Hodu!

    4. Tefilin on Chol Hamoed.

    5. Bash chassidic groups, extra credit for bashing Chabad.

    6. Love your fellow Jew – who is Litvish.

    #1696881

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    There is a 15 page application form
    I thought that was only for chabad

    5. Bash chassidic groups, extra credit for bashing Chabad
    Now I understand!
    How many extra points do you get maybe I’ll switch sides

    6. Love your fellow Jew – who is Litvish
    And the rebbetzin

    #1696883

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    I’m Litvish with some chasidhs blood. I love all Jews, whether litvish, chassidish, chabbad, Yoshke Messianic, irreligious, etc. But loving all Jews doesn’t preclude halacha and knowing right from wrong.

    #1696884

    ModernMisnaged
    Participant

    “Teffilin on Chol Hamoed”. Actually, Rebbetzin, The G”RA held NOT to put on teffilin on Chol Hamoed.

    #1697055

    laskern
    Participant

    The GRA held that there is a mitzva to eat matzos the whole seven days and thereby to sit in the sukkah all seven days which makes it an os, so no teffilin is worn on Chol Hamoed.

    #1697226

    The Litvish of today are MUCH more Litvish than the Gra. In fact, the Talmidei HaGra in Eretz Yisroel look kinda Chassidish. They sure don’t wear Borsalino hats! The Litvish of today have a much more Yeshivish appearance. Nothing like Old School of Lita. I think the Gra would feel totally out of place at an Agudah Convention.

    #1697305

    ModernMisnaged
    Participant

    Rebbetzin, that’s because the Yeshiva\Litvish world as we know it today was formulated by the “Avi HaYeshivos”, Reb Chaim of Volozhin.

    #1697327

    When did Litvish rabbonim and Rosh Yeshivas start wearing ties? Who introduced this new minhag against the mesorah?

    #1697300

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Litvish (and Yekkes and Oberlanders) used to wear shtreimals, long rekels and have long peyos too. There’s nothing Chasidish about all that.

    Most of the Litvish dropped all that when the Russian government forced them to stop in the mid to late 1800s. (The Chasidim defied the Russians and continued dressing the way Jews dressed before.) This was after the GRAs time and after the Talmidei HaGRA moved to Eretz Yisroel, so they too never followed the Russian goyim’s demand that they drop dressing so ostensibly Jewish. And thus the Litvaks in Eretz Yisroel who follow the original ways of the Talmidei HaGRA continue to wear shtreimals, etc.

    #1697322

    So the “Avi HaYeshivos” Reb Chaim of Volozhim, broke away from the mesorah of Lita and started a new derech?! Was part of this new derech to mock chassidim (because I heard Reb Chaim of Volozhim actually admired and was friends with Chabad Rebbes – to the point that after he discussed the topic with them, he stopped sleeping a sukkah himself)! My confusion is, the Gra had this cherem on chassidim – I get that. But Reb Chaim was close to Chabad. So when di the Litvish of today took some of the Gra cherem, but accepted Reb Chaim’s derech and the New Litvish way, while accepting all other chassidim (the Litvish yeshivos are filled with them) but kept the hatred to Chabad? It is so confusing and mixed up?!

    #1697323

    To clarify: Rav Chaim of Volozhim was the prime student of the Gra, yet he did not sign the Cherem against chassidim! The LItvish of today follow the ways of Reb Chaim, yet the haters keep bringing up the Gra’s cherem (that Reb Chaim had no part of)! COnfusing?!

    #1697349

    Joseph
    Participant

    The cherem is meaningless. It was only applicable to the people alive when it was issued, in any event. Since they all were niftar by now, it is irrelevant by any account.

    And see my previous comment.

    #1697354

    Joseph,
    Check out the old lithographs even before the Russian decrees they dressed somewhat differently

    #1697357

    Joseph,
    “The cherem is meaningless”.
    My grandfather went to verify that in 1946
    And it’s not completely simple as that.
    As R’Chaim kreiswirth who was of Polish origin said in 1975 he has a tradition it applicable to a certain well-known grouping[ we will not mention by name]still

    #1697359

    Joseph
    Participant

    I’ve seen pictures and paintings from Lita and from Germany in the 1800s with the Yidden wearing shtreimals and long peyos.

    Not Chasidim.

    #1697360

    “stopped sleeping in Sukkah”
    total fabrication
    “wearing tefillin on Ch”H”
    Almost all wore it on Chol Ha’meod many with a bracha

    that said, each locale had on its own tradition

    #1697361

    RebbitzinGolden,
    probably intentionally mixing him up with his son R Yitzchak

    #1697365

    Joseph
    Participant

    IiTfT: Explain, because that makes no sense.

    If Rabbi Shimon places Reuven into cherem and later Reuven passes away, the cherem doesn’t carry over to Reuven’s great-grandchildren that were never even alive when Reuven was in cherem.

    #1697366

    So I understand from what you are saying is that if the Chrem only applies strictly to Chabad, it means that Litvaks paskened that Chabad are the only “real”chassidim today. That’s kind of…interesting.

    #1697370

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If Rabbi Shimon places Reuven into cherem and later Reuven passes away, the cherem doesn’t carry over to Reuven’s great-grandchildren that were never even alive when Reuven was in cherem.

    It makes perfect sense if the cherem wasn’t on a specific person or people, but on anyone who conducts themselves a certain way.

    Of course, l’shitoscho, cherem d’Rabeinu Gershom can’t apply nowadays. 🤔

    #1697372

    I still don’t understand which Litvaks started wearing neck ties? (A break from previous mesorah).

    #1697377

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    When did shaving beards come into the lifish mesorah as far as I know before the war everyone had beards

    I’m not asking from a halacha standpoint obviously that was figured out

    #1697373

    And who started the Litvish Yeshiva minhag of a “hoicha kedusha” at mincha to save time of Chazoras HaShatz so we can get back to learn and not “waste time” on a proper mincha?!

    #1697375

    Joseph
    Participant

    “It makes perfect sense if the cherem wasn’t on a specific person or people, but on anyone who conducts themselves a certain way.”

    1) Are you asserting that the GRA’s cherem was not against specific people but rather was placed against all — unspecified — people who conduct specific activities?

    2) If so, do you assert that the GRA intended his cherem to remain active indefinitely, for hundreds of years? Rabbeinu Gershom specifically specified a time frame on his cherem. Do you assert anyone who can place a cherem has the ability the place a cherem that remains active for doros doros?

    3) If you assert all the above is true, who do you believe today has the ability to formally pronounce which people today fall into a cherem issued hundreds of years ago? And which such entity has pronounced which people today fall into the GRA’s cherem? And who can dispute such a pronouncement?

    #1697376

    Joseph
    Participant

    Mr. Rebbetzin: Do you understand which Litvaks started wearing eyeglasses, Borsalinos and driving automobiles, which you surely similarly view as a break from previous mesorah?

    #1697380

    Joseph
    Participant

    Since you went off topic (which is okay) about CRG, just to continue that line of thought…

    1) If someone violated CRG by marrying two wives, a) what are the consequences? Is he in a cherem in the standard way as when a B”D places someone in cherem? b) How does he remedy the situation and exit cherem? Must he divorce one of his wives?

    2) If he must divorce, can he choose which one?

    3) What if both refuse to accept a divorce. Then CRG prohibits him from forcibly divorcing either and he remains married to both. What to do then?

    #1697382

    Joseph
    Participant

    P.S. Since Reb Golden brought up the GRA and DY brought up CRG, it is worthwhile mentioning that the GRA wanted to discontinue CRG.

    #1697390

    writer
    Participant

    There is a teshuva from the Chasam Sofer about beards. In fact I think he says it dates back to Spain by the crusades. If someone can post the teshuva please it is very interesting and in depth

    #1697383

    Forcing bochurim to shave because only a Talmid CHochom can wear a beard – who created that mesorah?!

    #1697393

    The Chofetz Chaim wore a cap (kashket) – there are pics. He did not wear a Borsalino! When did a Litvish hat become “The Look”? A tie is “required” for bnei Torah – when did that “requirement” start (chassidic bochurmin. kollel men and rebbes don’t wear them!)?

    #1697398

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’m not asserting anything, I’m just showing you why you’re wrong that it can’t make sense. I didn’t change the topic to CRG, I just gave you an example of something I know you are familiar with because of your obsession with it.

    #1697402

    Joseph
    Participant

    1) I didn’t say it cannot make sense. I said in this particular cherem of the GRA it doesn’t make sense since the people it was placed on passed away long ago. (Implicit is that it was placed on specific people.)

    2) Your disagreeing with a point does not make your interlocutor obsessed.

    #1697419

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You’re asserting that it was made on specific people. Meiheicha teisi?

    You’re not obsessed because I disagree with you, you’re just obsessed.

    #1697420

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    And who started the Litvish Yeshiva minhag of a “hoicha kedusha” at mincha to save time of Chazoras HaShatz so we can get back to learn and not “waste time” on a proper mincha?!

    Very possibly Chazal.

    #1697427

    DT, Chazal also made an abridged Birkat Hamozon and other shortcuts for sha’as hadchak situations. Do Litvaks live a life of b’di’eved or sha’as hadchak?!

    #1697430

    Lit
    Participant

    The GR”A did not wear a Borsalino fedora. The fedora wasn’t even invented until many years after the Gaon was niftar.

    #1697432

    Lit
    Participant

    Not all Litvish wear ties.

    Does Rav Chaim Kanievsky shlita wear one? I don’t think so.

    On the other hand, some Chasidim and Chasidishe Rebbes wear ties, particularly those of Ruzhin background. Look at the Boyaner Rebbe, Sadigura Rebbe, etc., for example, to this day, and see them wearing ties.

    #1697431

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    “Very possibly Chazal”

    Obviously it’s mutar am pi halacha the question is when it came into a regular day-to-day thing

    #1697435

    GAON
    Participant

    Reb,
    “– to the point that after he discussed the topic with them, he stopped sleeping a sukkah himself)! ”

    I don’t know which nonsense you have been reading, asides the heter of not sleeping in a sukkah is mentioned in the Rema, this is totaly fabricated. Rav chaim and all his talmidim sid indeed sleep in the sukah.

    “The Chofetz Chaim wore a cap (kashket) – there are pics. He did not wear a Borsalino! When did a Litvish hat become “The Look”? A tie is “required” for bnei Torah – when did that “requirement” start (chassidic bochurmin. kollel men and rebbes don’t wear them!)?”

    The same way Chassidi Admorim decided wearing velvet and fur coats are part of yehadus or wearing silk etc. Not The Rambam nor the Beis Yosef nor the Rema wore black velvet hats.

    אלא מאי,
    Each group, segment or region decided to stop the clock at a diff time or era, the is NO specific mesorah in klal Yisrael how exactly your hat has to look like. With a pinch or without. Chabad decided to stop the clock in the 1930’s and the Yeshivish in the 50’s not so Yeshivish 60’s etc

    E.g. Rav Eliezer Silver zl decided to stop as the early 1900s wearing a stovetop hat. Same as Rav Itzele of Ponovizh..
    The rest is all שטיות the fact is that ia how a Ben torah nowadays dresses so behold that is the dress codw. Same with chassidim. There is nothing more holier in a velvet hat than a hat with 2 or 3 pinches ..or with a tie ir without…

    A שמחת פורים whatever hat you decide to wear..

    #1697438

    GAON
    Participant

    Jo,
    “I’ve seen pictures and paintings from Lita and from Germany in the 1800s with the Yidden wearing shtreimals and long peyos.

    Not Chasidim.”

    Nu lets assume we can pasken from a “painting” but how did verify their Chassidic” status?
    Did you see them holding siddurim marked Siddur HGra or Ashkenaz”…

    #1697439

    GAON
    Participant

    “It makes perfect sense if the cherem wasn’t on a specific person or people, but on anyone who conducts themselves a certain way.”

    Certainly, and that is precisely the reason why gedolim like the Chafetz a Chaim held that the Cherem is totaly not relevent, as chassidim are not authentic as well, there are no major differences in Hashkafa etc. (I.e. in whatever the true reason on the cherem was based upon)

    #1697440

    TheFakeMaven
    Participant

    Joseph: About the CRG, I’m very disapointed in you, (or rather, this confirms my suspicions…). Your question is addressed openly in Shulchan Aruch. As Iv’e told you countless times, before writing some silly point, make sure you know what you are talking about.

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