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  • #1697441

    GAON
    Participant

    “There is a teshuva from the Chasam Sofer about beards.”
    Its the same Teshuva that he mentions that the Italian rabbis affiliated with Kabala shaved, particularly the רמ”ע מפאנו

    #1697465

    Joseph
    Participant

    TheFake: You’re opposed to discussing halachic questions that are directly addressed in the S”A?!

    Nu, what does the S”A pasken?

    #1697591

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Nu lets assume we can pasken from a “painting” but how did verify their Chassidic” status?
    Did you see them holding siddurim marked Siddur HGra or Ashkenaz”…”
    For starters, you could look at the paintings of the Gra, Chasam Sofer, Ksav Sofer, etc. What was the point of this discussion, again? Surely you’ll find a lot of bearded Jews if you go back to the pre-electric shaver days, right?

    #1697615

    And the whole shaving beards is based on a heter that is not l’chol ha’dayos…yet, bochurim are encouraged (pressured) to shave because it is a ga’avah to have a beard (as Yidden always had!) before becoming a talmid chochom. Once a person reaches the “madreiga” to announce to the world that in his mind he considers himself a talmid chochom – only then can he have a beard….Let’s stop criticizing and mocking others, there is plenty to mock ourselves.

    #1697644

    writer
    Participant

    Gaon, yes but he writes a whole teshuva explaining other reasons supporting the topic including the history behind it. If someone can post it would be great I don’t know how to do that.

    #1697697

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Let’s stop criticizing and mocking others, there is plenty to mock ourselves.”
    Who are the ones doing the mocking here?

    #1697706

    GAON
    Participant

    Nev,

    “For starters, you could look at the paintings of the Gra, Chasam Sofer, Ksav Sofer, etc. What was the point of this discussion, again? Surely you’ll find a lot of bearded Jews if you go back to the pre-electric shaver days, right?”

    Asides that the discussion pertains to laymen not Rabbanim, so you can’t compare, – even many MO Rabbis wear beards to this very day. (Note, it is certain, there was no such concept as a Rabbi w/o a beard in those times), but lets take it a step further, even the typical Non-Jew in Poland and in Russia, most were ‘bearded’ until the early 1900’s.

    So the mere fact that every Jew went with a beard is non-applicable as proof of Mesorah, unless you back it up. Chassidim in Poland they wore Spudiks on Shabbos because they couln’t wear Shtriemels at one point so that became their “mesorah”, According to many Shtreimels developed from a ‘Gezero’, same with Yerushalmi garb, the striped Zebras etc, was also a result of one of the Ottoman decrees..

    If you look at all Chabad Rabbis, starting from the Baa’l Ha’tanya, Tzemech, then Rashab you will see a change of dress code as well…

    #1697723

    writer
    Participant

    People shaved less in general since it was just so much harder to do without electric shavers. It was much easier to trim if anything. Plus people were “poorer” and had less access to scissors even. Much more people would have shaved if it was possible. It was much easier not to. Besides for minhag.

    Source sefari(dot)org Chasam Sofer Orach Chaim 159

    אשר מלא פיו תוכחות קדוש יאמר לו ובודאי כן הוא בכמה מנהגי’ שנתקלקלו אצל ההמונים ונעשה להם היתר בעו”ה אבל אשר שם פניו נגד מגולחי הזקן לא ידעתי מה הרעש הגדול הזה לכו נא ונוכחה אי משום חוקת הגוים אשאלהו ויודיעני מי התיר לנו נעלים שחורים המבואר בש”ס לאסור מסאני אוכמי ולהפליא ענין אמרו במס’ תענית כ”ד ע”א דהוה מסיים מסאני אוכמי ויעיין ב”ק י”ט ע”ב ובתוס’ שם ד”ה דהוה מסיים ובשיטה מקובצת שם מחלק בין שחור לאוכם וזה מסכים קצת לפי’ ה”ג דמייתי תוס’ פא”ט מ”ו ע”ב ד”ה אוכמי הנאמר שהוא מקור משחת כאשר כ’ על עם ה’ אלו לא ניחא למרי’ למימר הכי והוא דבר דלא נמצא בש”ס ופוסקים וגם לא בשום ספר מספרי חצונים שיהי’ הפרש בין ישראל לאינו ישראל בגילוח הזקן כי אז גם כל האומו’ היו מגדלי’ זקניה’ ויעיי’ בש”ס שבת קנ”ב ע”א תלת אמרת לי תלת שמע’ וכו’ וברב’ בראשי’ פ’ י”א סי’ ז’ פילוסו’ שאל את ר’ יהושע וכו’ מפני מה אותו האיש מגלח פאת ראשו ומגדל זקנו וכו’ יע”ש אבל לא נמצא בשום מקום שיהיה בזה משונה מנהג גוים ומה שרמז לספרי מקובלים שכ’ שלא להושיט ידי’ בדקני כלל אין לי עסק בנסתרות אבל מהם ומהמונם הותרה הרצועה לגמרי בכל ארץ אטלי’ שכל חכמיה מגולחי זקן ונתלים באילן גדול ר’ מנחם עזרי’ בעל עשרה מאמרות אבי המקובלי’ שהוא הי’ מגולח מבלי השאיר שערה א’ וכן העיד עליו היש”ר מקאנדי’ באילים שלו והי’ אומר שעפ”י חכמי המקובלים אין ח”ל ראויה לכך ומה אאריך במה שאין לי יד ושם בו אבל אבותינו הנהגו עצמם כן על צד ההכרח הגדול ולא מקור משחת ח”ו אלא בקדושה יתירה והוא בימי גזירת תתנ”ו והרועים וכדומה התירו גדוליהם להמכתתי’ רגליהם לשנו’ מלבוש ולגלח זקנם שלא יכירום האויבים כי אז כבר גלחו הגוים זקניהם עפ”י מעשה ממלך פולין א’ שהי’ סריס כמבואר בספרי הימי’ והתירו חז”ל שהיו בימים ההם לעשות כן ולהיות גלוח הזקן דבר שא”א להשתנו’ והיו נכלמים מאוד האנשים ההמה בשובם לביתם ע”כ נשתרבב המנהג שלא לגדלו כלל רק סימנא בעלמא שזה יגולח ויגדל בקוצר זמן שבן לילה היה ורק אך מופלגי תורה היושבים בביתם הם מגדלים אותו ואותן שלפני גזירה ההיא שברחו לארץ פולין לא באו לכלל זה והנה זה ברור ונכון כי אלו היה תחלת מנהגו באיסור היה משום חוקי הגוים אבל אחר שכבר נהגו ישראל לגלח תו אין בו שום נדנוד ופקפוק כלל אפילו ריח איסור אין בו אבל הך דמסאני אוכמי לא ידעתי איך יתפשט ע”כ צריכי’ אנו ללמוד זכות ולומר שנתפשט ג”כ בתחילה בהיתר וכיון שהותר הותר והנה יעיי’ ביורה דעה סימן קנ”ז ס”ב ויעיי’ ש”ך סימן קע”ח סק”ד הקשה אמהרי”ק ובחידושי למסכת חולין ישבתי ת”ל יתברך באופן הנאות ואי משום מספריים כעין תער זהו חשש רחוק ושרשו פתוח מתרומת הדשן כשהזוג חדוד מאוד יש לזהר אולי יחתוך בתחתון לחוד וידענא שהוא מידי דלא שכיח גם מההשחתה תחת הגרון המעיי’ בש”ס וראשונים יראה כי ממש לית מאן דחש לדברי ר”ח בזה והמחמיר קדוש יאמר לו והמקיל לא יאמר עליו מקור משחת ח”ו כללו של דבר כל מה שאמר מכ”ת באגדת ריב”ח הנמשל הוא טוב וקדש קדשים והמשל שהיסב פני’ על חטא קל וקטן לא יקרא ח”ו בשם חטא ועון חלילה וחס והאומר כן עתיד ליתן הדין בלי ספק והייתי יכול להמשיל משל אחר אבל ועמך כולם צדיקים כתי’ ויהי’ ממחוז פלוני או פלוני:

    Btw doesn’t it say about Yosef Hatzaddik vayegalach, before meeting pharaoh? And Moshe Rabbeiunu (leviim)was commanded to do so once? And kitzur brings up not shaving on certain days meaning shaving was an allowed thing? Etc.

    #1697839

    TheFakeMaven
    Participant

    Joseph: You’re opposed to discussing halachic questions that are directly addressed in the S”A?!
    Of course not, I’m just opposed to ignorant people making false claims as facts.

    As to what the S”A paskens: If you’re truly interested you can look it up yourself, E”H 1:10.

    #1697864

    laskern
    Participant
    #1697775

    laskern
    Participant

    שו”ת חתם סופר חלק א (אורח חיים) סימן קנט
    אשר מלא פיו תוכחות, קדוש יאמר לו, ובודאי כן הוא בכמה מנהגים שנתקלקלו אצל ההמונים ונעשה להם היתר בעו”ה, אבל אשר שם פניו נגד מגולחי
    הזקן, לא ידעתי מה הרעש הגדול הזה, לכו נא ונוכחה אי משום חוקת הגויים אשאלהו ויודיעני מי התיר לנו נעלים שחורים המבואר בש”ס לאסור מסאני
    אוכמי ולהפליא ענין אמרו במס’ תענית כ”ב9 ע”א דהוה מסיים מסאני אוכמי, ויעיין ב”ק נ”ט10 ע”ב ובתוס’ שם ד”ה דהוה מסיים, ובשיטמ”ק שם מחלק
    בין שחור לאוכם וזה מסכים קצת לפי’ ה”ג דמייתי תוס’ פרק אלו טרפות מ”ו ע”ב ד”ה אוכמי, הנאמר שהוא מקור משחת, כאשר כתב על עם ה’ אלו, לא ניחא למרייהו למימר הכי, והוא דבר דלא נמצא בש”ס ופוסקים וגם לא בשום ספר מספרי חצונים שיהי’ הפרש בין ישראל לאינו ישראל בגילוח הזקן כי אז גם כל האומות היו מגדלים זקניהם, ויעיין בש”ס שבת קנ”ב ע”א תלת אמרת לי תלת שמעת וכו’, וברבה בראשית פ’ י”א סי’ ז’ פילוסוף שאל את ר’ יהושע וכו’ מפני מה אותו האיש מגלח פאת ראשו ומגדל זקנו וכו’ יע”ש, אבל לא נמצא בשום מקום שיהיה בזה משונה מנהג גוים. ומה שרמז לספרי מקובלים שכתבו שלא להושיט ידים בדקני כלל אין לי עסק בנסתרות, אבל מהם ומהמונם הותרה הרצועה לגמרי בכל ארץ אטלי’ שכל חכמיה מגולחי זקן ונתלים באילן גדול ר’ מנחם עזרי’ בעל עשרה מאמרות אבי המקובלים שהוא היה מגולח מבלי השאיר שערה א’, וכן העיד עליו היש”ר מקאנדיא באילים שלו, והיה אומר שעפ”י חכמי המקובלים אין חוץ לארץ ראויה לכך, ומה אאריך במה שאין לי יד ושם בו, אבל אבותינו הנהיגו עצמם כן על צד ההכרח הגדול ולא מקור משחת ח”ו אלא בקדושה יתירה, והוא בימי גזירת תתנ”ו, והרועים וכדומה התירו גדוליהם להמכתתים רגליהם לשנות מלבוש ולגלח זקנם שלא יכירום האויבים כי אז כבר גלחו הגוים זקניהם עפ”י מעשה ממלך פולין א’ שהי’ סריס כמבואר בספרי הימים והתירו חז”ל שהיו בימים ההם לעשות כן, ולהיות גלוח הזקן דבר שאי אפשר להשתנות והיו נכלמים מאוד האנשים ההמה בשובם לביתם, על כן נשתרבב המנהג שלא לגדלו כלל רק סימנא בעלמא שזה יגולח ויגדל בקוצר זמן שבן לילה היה ורק אך מופלגי תורה היושבים בביתם הם מגדלים אותו, ואותן שלפני גזירה ההיא שברחו לארץ פולין לא באו לכלל זה. והנה זה ברור ונכון כי אילו היה תחלת מנהגו באיסור היה משום חוקי הגוים, אבל אחר שכבר נהגו ישראל לגלח, תו אין בו שום נדנוד ופקפוק כלל אפילו ריח איסור אין בו, אבל הך דמסאני אוכמי לא ידעתי איך נתפשט11 ע”כ צריכין אנו ללמוד זכות ולומר שנתפשט ג”כ בתחילה בהיתר וכיון שהותר הותר. והנה יעיין ביורה דעה סימן קנ”ז ס”ב ויעיין ש”ך סי’ קע”ח סק”ד הקשה אמהרי”ק, ובחידושי למסכת חולין12 ישבתי ת”ל יתברך באופן הנאות, ואי משום מספריים כעין תער זהו חשש רחוק ושרשו פתוח מתרומת הדשן13 כשהזוג חדוד מאוד יש לזהר אולי יחתוך בתחתון לחוד וידענא שהוא מידי דלא שכיח, גם מההשחתה תחת הגרון המעיין בש”ס [מכות כ’ ע”א] וראשונים יראה כי ממש לית מאן דחש לדברי ר”ח14 בזה, והמחמיר קדוש יאמר לו והמקיל לא יאמר עליו מקור משחת ח”ו. כללו של דבר, כל מה שאמר מכ”ת באגדת ריב”ח15 הנמשל הוא טוב וקדש קדשים, והמשל שהיסב פני’ על חטא קל וקטן לא יקרא ח”ו בשם חטא ועון חלילה וחס, והאומר כן עתיד ליתן הדין בלי ספק, והייתי יכול להמשיל משל אחר אבל ועמך כולם צדיקים כתיב,
    -ויהי’ ממחוז פלוני או פלוני:

    #1697919

    Goan writes ‘If you look at all Chabad Rabbis, starting from the Baa’l Ha’tanya, Tzemech, then Rashab you will see a change of dress code as well…”

    Wait a minute, I am confused. You are bringiung a “rayah” (proof) from Chabad?! Aren’t they the ones that “many gedolim” (invisible ones like my invisible friends) consider them Ovdei Avoda Zara?! Aren’ they the ones that you claim don’t keep halacha properly?! You bringing proof from THEM?!

    That is all “l’shitascha” – because I consider them like all other frum yidden….

    #1697928

    DY on: And who started the Litvish Yeshiva minhag of a “hoicha kedusha” at mincha to save time of Chazoras HaShatz so we can get back to learn and not “waste time” on a proper mincha?! DT – Very possibly Chazal.

    Which Chazal said that is the minhag of klal yisroel to abridge mincha (and if so, mima mafshoch) why do all shuls (outside of Litvish Yeshos) NOT follow this Chazal and have a proper chazoras haShatz?!

    #1697945

    Regarding shaving, there is a sefer that collected ALL the shitos, and nearly all are MACHMIR 9either as a d’oraysa, plus other issurim: lvush isha, etc, or midrabonon): Sefer Hadras Ponim Zoken

    #1697991

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Regarding shaving, there is a sefer that collected ALL the shitos,

    Not all, just the machmirim.

    #1697967

    NOT follow this Chazal and have a proper chazoras haShatz?!

    Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky, Explained that one already years ago
    He said that always was the custom of full time elevated Scholars
    It wasn’t meant to be imitated by lay people or youth though

    #1697996

    Haman said: Yeshno Am Echad, Mefuzar U’Meforad Bein HaAmim.

    Some take this a chiyuv to make yidden “Mefuzar U’Meforad” by causing pirud and sinas yisroel from within.

    I guess they are at Ad Dlo Yada – they don’t know that it Haman is the one that is Orur. It is a curse mission that impacts them and their loved ones negatively – r”l, Hashem ya’azor.

    #1697998

    TomimTihyeh
    Participant

    The Rebbe edit wore a fedora, as well as a tie. He also instructs all shluchim to wear ties when dealing with the general public.

    As far as the sefer Hadras Ponim Zoken, to be fair, that sefer has an agenda, and conveniently ignores or whitewashes the clear shittos that permit shaving, including the Yerushalmi, Rosh, Tur, Chasam Sofer, and Rav Moshe Feinstein.

    #1698000

    TomimTihyeh
    Participant

    Additionally, the Rebbe  himself showed that there is room to be mefakpeik mitzad hadin on the issue of shaving. See the very first holy letter in Igros Kodesh where He shows that there is room to disagree with the Tzemach Tzedek’s teshivah on the matter.

    edited

    #1698001

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    “Not all, just the machmirim”

    About the book
    The cutting and growth of the beard in Jewish law is the subject of this encyclopedic work, over 1000 pages in length and the result of over 30 years of research.

    The author has compiled a phenomenal array of sources spanning the centuries, including opinions across the spectrum of Jewish law, the Kabbalistic view, and astonishing anecdotes of Jews self-sacrifice to keep their beards.

    The reader will unquestionably come away with a deepened appreciation for the beauty and significance of the Jewish beard.

    #1698053

    Its Time wrote “Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky, Explained that one already years ago He said that always was the custom of full time elevated Scholars It wasn’t meant to be imitated by lay people or youth though”

    “Full time elevated scholars” like the Rashbi and his disciples are completely pottur from tefillah! But I guess these Litvak Yeshivas think they are “part way” to the madgreiga of “toraso umnoso”, there whole life is spent every minute learning, so no time to waste on a proper mincha, unless of course they are shaving – for that avoda there is plenty of time!

    #1698062

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I heard it differently b’shem R’ Yaakov – that since the takanah of chazaras hasha”s for Mincha was only for people who couldn’t daven on their own (as opposed to Shacharis when there’s also Birchas Kohanim), batei medrash, in which generally only people who know how to daven on their own daven, were excluded.

    #1698065

    Chossid
    Participant

    I daven mincha many times in a litvish yeshiava that does heicha kidusha, and the first time I davend there it took me by surprise , (since I never of such a thing before). so I went over to the Roshe Yeshiva nicely asked what’s the reason for this, and he said this is ongenumen from amol because of bitul Torah. Then I walk outside and lo and behold I see all the bochurim playing basketball.
    This might be only one case,I’m not saying this is all the yeshivois, but wondering does this make sense at all and mutar Al pi haloch? I find it funny that the Roshe Yeshiva make the whole Yeshiva wait for him to finish his extra long shemoina esrie, but the they can’t sacrifice 3 minutes for Chazoras hashats.
    If they’re so worried about bitul Torah then it would only make sense that they should sacrifice time from their break, Instead of cutting ends on davaning

    #1698088

    Dear Rebbitzen,

    So sorry about all the deletions but your anti hate posts are pretty hateful.

    – 29

    #1698085

    writer
    Participant

    Chossid-“Then I walk outside and lo and behold I see all the bochurim playing basketball.”

    Oh please the classic we are better than them deal. There’s always that lubavicther (which I’m guessing you are) who happened to daven at a litvish yeshiva and saw these things. Your stories always follow the same pattern. What if I told you the things I saw in your yeshivas? You would be shocked at bochurim behaviors. I saw myself and was taken aback.

    #1698139

    29 – I can’t help hating those who hate any frum yidden. If it is a mitzva – it is my zchus. If it is an aveira – it is my misoyon.

    #1698149

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I can’t help hating those who hate any frum yidden.

    Do you hate yourself, or are you not frum?

    #1698154

    writer
    Participant

    Rebetzin, unfortunately on all sides children are taught(brainwashed) in a manner of lifting themselves up by lowering others. This is also the normal way of teaching even for adults. In fact the ones who accuse the whole yiddishe world of hating them do it most. Everyone should lower their gaiva of my rebbe is better than your Gadol and my Gadol is better than your Rebbe, and just remember the fact that we are all one. It’s a real shame how so many teachings come with the belittling of other yiddishe groups in order to feel superior.

    There is one Torah, one Yidden, and one Hashem. We are all the same with variations in customs which basically originated due to certain situations and locations in the world and doubts/loss of the original minhag. The problem is everyone took it too far and made these “temporary” minhagim halacha lemoshe misinai! Just follow your minhagim without the need to belittle others in order to raise yourself. Shows how much confidence you truly have in your own minhagim when you have to do that doesn’t it?

    Why can’t it be accepted that everyone has their own way of serving Hashem?

    #1698156

    writer
    Participant

    Daas with another clever one!

    #1698160

    I hate myself for hating Jews who hate frun Yidden. It’s awful! Gotta go to Haters Anonymous and do the 12 Ikrim.

    #1698168

    Chossid
    Participant

    Writer
    You just missed it again.
    I’m not saying your bochurim are bad in anyway, nor am I saying that Lubavitcher bochurim don’t play basketball, all I’m saying is, actually asking what exactly is the heter?

    #1698187

    Lit
    Participant

    “why do all shuls (outside of Litvish Yeshos) NOT follow this Chazal and have a proper chazoras haShatz?!”

    Incorrect.

    Sephardic/Eidot Hamizrach congregations at times do same or similar. I have seen it with my own eyes.

    If you would take a break from your Litvak bashing hate agenda and look around a bit, you might see it yourself sometime.

    #1698193

    Lit
    Participant

    “Many (perhaps even close to a majority) who today call themselves Litvish are actually from Chasidish/heimish families. They come from Hungary, Poland, Ukraine, Austria, Czechoslovakia, etc., where their grandfathers or great-grandfathers were Chasidim or Oberlander.”

    1) The population (Jewish and general) and land area of of modern Lithuania is a lot smaller than that of Poland, where Hasidism was more dominant.

    2) Oberlander are like Litvaks in that they both rejected the new Hasidic movement and stuck to old fashioned Yiddishkeit.

    #1698197

    Lit
    Participant

    Re Litvaks and beards –

    Yes, in some yeshivas there was shaving. But in others were more open to beards, for example, in the Novhardok yeshivas. Novhardok had a giant network of yeshivos.

    The Litvishe way is not just Slabodka.

    Of course, the war hit Novhardok hard and it was decimated, so it is less known today.

    Anyway, when looking at such things we should know the context, e.g. terrible anti-semitism and mocking of frum people at that time.

    #1698205

    Lit
    Participant

    “Rav Chaim of Volozhim was the prime student of the Gra, yet he did not sign the Cherem against chassidim! The LItvish of today follow the ways of Reb Chaim, yet the haters keep bringing up the Gra’s cherem (that Reb Chaim had no part of”

    Rav Chaim Volozhin was a Misnaged. The Chasidim try to make up and sell a bobbeh mayseh in which Rav Chaim Volozhin differed with the GRA and refused to sign the cheirem, based on the fact that his signature is not on it. As if he was not a Misnaged.

    So why didn’t Rav Chaim Volozhin sign it?

    A few reasons are given, see sefer Hagaon by Rav Dov Eliach shlita.

    For example,

    1) The cheirem was put out by large kehillos, such as Vilna, Brisk….R. Chaim was in a small rural town, Volozhin, so he was not part of it. It wasn’t like a heter meah rabbonim, when people might go around to get signatures from all over. Also, in the old days travel and communication were much more difficult than they are today.

    2) R. Chaim Volozhin didn’t want to sign along with his Rebbe, that could be seen as disrespectful, as if he was on par with him.

    Later on, the government of Czarist Russia legalized Hasidism, so the cheirem could not be enforced.

    #1698207

    GAON
    Participant

    Reb,
    “Aren’t they the ones that “many gedolim” (invisible ones like my invisible friends) consider them Ovdei Avoda Zara?! ”

    You are probably confusing me with “Lernt” but regardless, the ones having an issue with Chabad are with the most recent Meshichists, absolutely nothing with the ones mentioned. In any case, you did not respond to the point made, regarding the so-called dress code “mesorah’

    And btw, that sefer mentioned is clearly one with an agenda, aa some have pointed, so the “shitos” are probably just the way he understood it and should be taken with a grain of salt.

    One clear psak of the Chasam Sofer probably שקול נגד כולם…

    #1698208

    GAON
    Participant

    Chossid, it is a minhag like all minhagim. It was originated at a time when Bitul Torah was precious and even if its not anymore as it once was, the minhag stayed on. Same way chassidim daven late because once upon a time, chassidim in Peshischa and Kotzk purified their minds and souls many hours for davening, starting from the early hours, which is totally not relevant today…

    #1698333

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    The yeshivas that do heicha mincha still say tachanun by mincha? I’m curious as to how they decided on that pecking order.

    #1698419

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The yeshivas that do heicha mincha still say tachanun by mincha?

    Yes

    #1698296

    Joseph
    Participant

    Lit –

    “1) The population (Jewish and general) and land area of of modern Lithuania is a lot smaller than that of Poland, where Hasidism was more dominant.”

    Are you trying to say that there were less Litvish Yidden that Chasidish and Oberlander Yidden in the prewar period?

    Jewish “Lita” refers to more than just modern Lithuania.

    “2) Oberlander are like Litvaks in that they both rejected the new Hasidic movement and stuck to old fashioned Yiddishkeit.”

    Oberland, i.e. the Chasam Sofer, etc., did not reject Chasidim. They were on very friendly terms and interactions with them even though they never joined the movement.

    And after the war large segments of Oberlander Yidden (i.e. Vien, Dushinsky, etc.) joined the Chasidic movement.

    #1698556

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I know it’s anecdotal, but I have never heard anyone use the word “oberlander” outside of internet forums. I’ve met true Oberlanders and they either describe themselves as Heimish, Chassidishe (even when they aren’t), or Hungarian (even when they aren’t from within the boarders of modern Hungary).

    DY:
    I do not merit to understand how tachanun, which poskim make a point of saying is a reshus not a chiyuv, would take precedence over chazaras hashatz once you’re in the business of deleting stuff for bitul Torah. Even with the explanation you gave (which I’m sure is correct), how could that really apply in America? Unless the beis medrash had a “no aino buckis allowed” sign, there could always be someone who needs it.

    #1698613

    GAON
    Participant

    “I do not merit to understand how tachanun, which poskim make a point of saying is a reshus not a chiyuv, would take precedence over chazaras hashatz ”

    For the record, the very Minhag is already mentioned as a “sefardi minhag” by the Bes Yosef OC 334:5:

    ומתפללין י”ח וש”ץ מחזיר התפלה כדרך שעושין בשחרית כ”כ ג”כ הרמב”ם בפ”ט מהל’ תפלה וכן נוהגים האשכנזים וכ”כ הכלבו שצריך להחזיר התפלה כמו בשחרית אם לא ע”י הדחק אבל הספרדים אין נוהגים לחזור ש”ץ התפלה במנחה אלא מתפלל ש”ץ עם הציבור בקול רם ואומר קדושה וברכת אתה קדוש ואח”כ אומר האמצעיות בלחש עם הציבור ומתחיל רצה בקול רם וגומר תפלתו בקול רם ומנהג האשכנזים הוא הנכון וכן הנהיגו חכמים שבדור שלפנינו בצפ”ת תוב”ב וגזרו לעובר על תקנתם:

    #1698621

    Lit
    Participant

    Joseph – “Oberland, i.e. the Chasam Sofer, etc., did not reject Chasidim. They were on very friendly terms and interactions with them even though they never joined the movement.”

    It is true that they didn’t put Chasidus into cheirem there at that time, but by then the cheirem already had become history even in Lita, as the Czarist government had legalized Hasidism. That era had passed.

    However, that doesn’t mean that Hisnagdus ended. It most definitely continued, just in different forms and ways.

    The Chasam Sofer and those who followed him clearly rejected Chasidus (see teshuvos Chasam Sofer), even if they talked to its followers. If you don’t join a movement that wants you to join it, that means that you rejected it.

    “And after the war large segments of Oberlander Yidden (i.e. Vien, Dushinsky, etc.) joined the Chasidic movement.”

    Dushinsky became semi-Hasidic a long time ago, however, they still retain some Oberlander characteristics.

    To say that Vien joined the Hasidic movement after the war is incorrect. R. Yonason Shteif, R. Ezriel Lebovits z”l, led an Ashkenaz kehillah.

    The leader afterward, R. Katz, who is Hasidic background, who is still there, broke the condition(s) that they set with him when he was hired, put on a shtreimel and changed the nusach of their Williamsburg congregation to Sfard for the most part. But that is a relatively recent development, like within the last 10-15 years. However, other Vien branches stayed Ashkenaz (with exception of a small Flatbush branch). The changes by R. Katz aroused great controversy. By no means are all Vieners approving of them. Many of the Ashkenaz Vieners have given up on Vien it seems, and joined other kehillos.

    #1698850

    “the very Minhag is already mentioned as a “sefardi minhag” by the Bes Yosef OC 334:5”

    Ok, so the Litvish follow minhagei Sfard, davening Ashkenaz, but no kitniyos – confusing. But suppose they do follow this minhag of Sefard as their hetter – guess what, they only do the first half of the minhag: Chazzon says aloud till kedusha…but what about the Chazzon starting AGAIN aloud fom Modim – as the Bais Yossef writes?!

    אבל הספרדים אין נוהגים לחזור ש”ץ התפלה במנחה אלא מתפלל ש”ץ עם הציבור בקול רם ואומר קדושה וברכת אתה קדוש ואח”כ אומר האמצעיות בלחש עם הציבור ומתחיל רצה בקול רם וגומר תפלתו בקול רם ומנהג האשכנזים הוא הנכון וכן הנהיגו חכמים שבדור שלפנינו בצפ”ת תוב”ב

    And indeed ends:
    ומנהג האשכנזים הוא הנכון וכן הנהיגו חכמים שבדור שלפנינו
    וגזרו לעובר על תקנתם yet the Litvish Yeshivos are עובר על תקנתם daily?!

    #1698887

    Joseph
    Participant

    Lit: Rav Levovits also wore a shtreimal. The Williamsburg shul switched to Nusach Sefard a longer time ago than the other Viener shuls, I think. And the reason they switched was because the klal was already changing nusach. The shuls changing to Sefard wasn’t what caused so many of the Viener people who switched earlier.

    A similar trajectory towards greater Chasidim could also be seen by Nitra, Kashau, Tzehlim, Krasna and Pupa.

    #1698956

    Lit
    Participant

    Joseph: “Lit: Rav Levovits also wore a shtreimal…….”

    Joseph – you don’t know what you are talking about. As they say, you are entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts.

    A similar trajectory towards greater Chasidim could also be seen by Nitra, Kashau, Tzehlim, Krasna and Pupa.”

    You are mixing together different groups. Each group has their own history. They do not march in lockstep.

    Nitra is still Ashkenaz in main mosdos, such as Mt. Kisco old minyan, and Boro Park old Shul.

    The others have a different history.

    #1698958

    Lit
    Participant

    Joseph: “Lit: Rav Levovits also wore a shtreimal.”

    The fact that you call him “Rav Levovits” shows that you are ignorant about him. Levovits (usually spelled Levovitz) is a Litvishe name. The Viener Rav was not Litvish.

    R. Lebovits z”l kept minhagei Ashkenaz, such as wearing tefillin on Chol Hamoed openly.

    #1698973

    Joseph
    Participant

    Lit, you’re ignoring my main points and resorting to silly comments such as about how I spelled a last name (ironically enough as a result of how spell check modified it.)

    The fact is I gave you numerous examples of how many different Oberlanders moved towards Chasidism — some to greater extents and some to somewhat lesser extents. Mostly after the war though you correctly pointed out one example predates the war.

    The examples were, and remain, Dushinsky (einekelech of the Chasam Sofer himself), Vien, Nitra, Kashau, Tzehlim, Krasna and Pupa.

    None of your points disputes this.

    #1698985

    Lit
    Participant

    Joseph – some of your historical info is still incorrect. In the know, astute readers will notice that.

    Yes, there has been some movement to Hasidism. However, the picture you are painting misses large numbers of Oberlander who have joined other segments of Klal Yisroel, such as Yeshivish, Litvish, regular Ashkenaz Shuls, as they voted with their feet and left when some Oberlander institutions came under Hasidic domination (e.g. R. Katz of Vien was/is Hasidic, not Oberlander who converted, and he violated agreement when he was hired to keep things as they were). In Williamsburg Vien there were like no old Vieners left, so R. Katz brought in Hasidim. It was not that old Vieners converted to Hasidism there.

    Furthermore, even those Oberlander who allegedly became Hasidic often retained some Oberlander Ashkenaz identity and minhagim, so they did not totally leave where they came from. E.g. I think Dushinsky says bameh madlikin Friday night, people put on tefillin on Chol Hamoed, etc.

    #1698986

    similar trajectory towards greater Chasidim could also be seen by Nitra, Kashau, Tzehlim, Krasna and Pupa.”

    conversation with a choshuve מרביץ תורה (disseminator of Torah) of Litvishe stock. at some point he remarked to me along the following lines – ‘I agree with you that the Litvishe way (Litvak דרך is the correct way, but it is harder. I have been breaking my head lately over some שווערע ( difficult passages of רמב”ם). It is hard. It is a lot easier to be a Chasid.’

    Rav Moshe Feinstein זצ”ל famously used to say that the saying ‘Es iz shver tzu zein a Yid’ (it is difficult, hard to be a Jew’) did in a generation of Jewish youth. They would hear their father’s, although keeping the tradition, sighing, groaning, about the difficulty involved. The children then, when given the opportunity to live a life that seemed (on the surface) easier, sans the same observance, unsurprisingly grabbed it. No, he counseled, , we need to be very careful about what message we are sending – not ‘עס איז שווער צו זיין א איד’, rather ‘עס איז גוט צו זיין א איד” (it is good, great, enjoyable to be a Jew)!

    I believe the same lesson applies . No, not ‘עס איז שווער צו זיין א ליטוואק’ , but rather ‘עס איז גוט צו זיין א ליטוואק’

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