August 15, 2022 3:38 am at 3:38 am #2115018moishekapoiehParticipant
One count against Trump now is espionage ! They can’t make this stuff up ! Truth is stranger than fiction, for sure. Did he hand anything over to his pal Putin? or to his lover (he is quoted as saying that he is in “love” with the north korean dictator)?
If found guilty, will he wind up to the same fate as the Rosenbergs?
Hard to believe a former president is in this position.
But a guy who watched 3 hours of an attempted coup and did nothing (except probably kvelled) is capable of anything……August 15, 2022 7:49 am at 7:49 am #2115179Ray KaufmanParticipant
No official organization, not Congress, the 1/6 committee, Dept. of Homeland Security, the FBI, CIA, NSA or the rest of the alphabet is considering espionage charges against Trump, not that mishandling of classified documents is a petty matter. Complicating the issue is that, as President, Trump was the final classifying authority. He had the authority to declassify with few notable exceptions, just about everything.
P.S. The Rosenbergs had it coming.August 15, 2022 8:30 am at 8:30 am #2115193
Donald Trump also killed Elvis. And Kennedy.August 15, 2022 8:31 am at 8:31 am #2115205
Russian media is claiming that Russia has some of the documents that Trump illegally stole. Fox News is suggesting that Trump sold them to Russia.
This is not derangement as the Trump Cult claims. We are facing the possibility of the worst crime any US President has ever committed since John Tyler supported the Confederacy in the Civil War. Simply HAVING the documents makes Trump eligible for a ten year prison sentence.
Prepare for a lot of whatsboutism and lies from the Trump Cult and Putin’s trolls.August 15, 2022 8:32 am at 8:32 am #2115207smerelParticipant
>>>One count against Trump now is espionage ! They can’t make this stuff up !
When it comes to Trumps more rabid enemies you can make anything up…
To paraphrase Trump: The New York Times can make up that Trump shot three people on Fifth Avenue and the entire media world will fly into outrage and the FBI will fly into action.August 15, 2022 8:32 am at 8:32 am #2115210
The Rosenberg’s result was that Russia acquired nuclear weapons.August 15, 2022 8:34 am at 8:34 am #2115230akupermaParticipant
It appears that the Democrats regard the “Deplorables” as illegal aliens and enemies of state, and therefor taking one’s papers (which on Jan. 19, 2021, Trump has the authority to declassify and transfer to his personal ownership) is the same as helping Joe Stalin and the socialists destroy the United States. It is a major leap that the “Deplorables” are now to be considered as traitors and rebels with no constitutional rights.
We should not forget that to the “woke”, the “people of faith” are also “deplorable”, so don’t be shocked when the FBI raids the Agudah looking for evidence that they are furthering politically incorrect ideas.August 15, 2022 9:11 am at 9:11 am #2115241commonsaychelParticipant
when a troll posts such topics such as every rebbe get a pistol or a aborition vs pimples, I can not take his posts seriouslyAugust 15, 2022 9:17 am at 9:17 am #2115266
“Trump has the authority to declassify and transfer to his personal ownership [documents taken during the FBI search of Mar a Lago]
We keep hearing this mantra from Trump and his chevrah. It is only partially true. Trump does have ultimate declassification authority but certain documents cannot be declassified at all and others require certain minimal procedures be followed. However, even after declassification, he CANNOT simply “transfer” (aka steal”) the documents and hide in his office and bedroom. They remain the property of the U.S. government (with the exception of certain momentos (aka gifts) from foreign governments of nominal value. Otherwise, they remain accessible to an ex-President but under the custody and control of the National Archives.August 15, 2022 9:37 am at 9:37 am #2115286
Comparisons to the Rosenbergs and suggestions of espionage charges actually being brought against Trump and meshugaas from the left. We already have enough garbage from the right so this stuff is totally counterproductive. My sense is that Trump simply wanted to hold on stuff he could bring out and show off to visitors or possibly even use for financial gain. I don’t think he ever considered “selling” classified information to our enemies since he would be too dumb to pull of such a stunt and no foreign adversary would take anything he offered seriously.August 15, 2022 11:34 am at 11:34 am #2115285
The warrant lists three potential criminal violations that investigators suspected they would find evidence of in the search: concealment or removal of federal records, destruction or alteration of records in a federal investigation and transmitting defense information.
The most serious of the charges, the one involving destroying records in a federal investigation, carries a maximum possible sentence of up to 20 years in prison.August 15, 2022 11:36 am at 11:36 am #2115298
If you were a member of America’s spy network in a foreign enemy country (or if you were personally responsible for one of these spies family safety), would you feel comfortable in Trump having a record of top secret documents in mar-a-lago ?
The laws were made in order to keep people safe and there are no exceptions for “well , why would he do that” or “he never considered doing that ” !
That he would bring these documents out to show off or for financial gain is exactly the reason why he could never ever be allowed to keep these documents in mar-a-lago or anywhere else in his jurisdiction even for 1 second. You seem to trust that whoever he would show off these documents to could be trusted to not sell the info to enemies.
Nobody in law enforcement would allow ANYBODY to SHOW top secret documents to ANYBODY other than to the people who have clearance.August 15, 2022 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #2115327Amil ZolaParticipant
Point of information: Ethel was later determined to be innocent. She was stitched up by her brother David, under the influence of our our Xpresidents deceased pal, Roy Cohen.
Frankly, just how do you imprison someone who has a lifetime of protection by the Secret Service?August 15, 2022 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #2115350
Jack….I’d be the last person to “trust” Trump with anything. My comment about “showing off” was more directed at some stupid photo of him cavorting with Kim il Sung or a compromising email intercept about French President’s Macron’s alleged infidelity. My sense is that while some of the documents are classified, if the DOJ really thought there was anything at Mar a Lago that literally jeopardized national security or nuclear weapons programs, they wouldn’t have waited months to “negotiate” for their return. I could be wrong but just don’t think we are dealing with existential documents. That having been said, I certainly hope they nail him for what he has illegally taken from the WH.August 15, 2022 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #2115358
Don’t give up your day job………………………
This long time attorney will tell you that:
#1 An EX-President has no authority to declassify anything
#2 A sitting President may have the authority to order that certain documents be declassified, BUT The documents have to go through prescribed procedures executed by specific government employees for declassification to occur.
This did NOT happen.
No intent or statement by Donald Trump declassified these documents.August 15, 2022 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #2115361
“Trump has the authority to declassify and transfer to his personal ownership”
NO, that is FALSE!
The sitting President has the authority to order certain documents to be declassified. He cannot perform the required steps himself. It has to be done by proscribed government employees according to set procedures.
He does not get to transfer the documents to his personal ownership, leaving the government without ‘originals’ (what is an original in this era of digital production, unlike in the age of carbon copies) as opposed to making and taking copies of truly declassified documents to be owned personally.
No President can proclaim something declassified and it is then so. Not how it works.August 15, 2022 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #2115362yaakov doeParticipant
Do any of you remember when Yujing Zhang weas arrested at Mar a Lago? Items found in her hotel room included a signal detector used to pick up the presence of hidden cameras, nine USB drives, five sim cards and a cellphone, $8,000 in cash and several credit and debit cards.
Mar a Lago was not a secure place to keep documents that even if declassified should not have been removed from the archives. The place is a resort with many people including possible spies of passing through.
At sentencing, the then 33-year-old said she went to Mar-a-Lago “to meet the president and family and just make friends”. It can be assume that there were others who weren’t caught.August 15, 2022 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #2115378akupermaParticipant
Gadolha-dorah: The matter of the extent the president has authority to declassify and transfer papers is the subject of civil litigation. Trump certainly believed, and has a respectable legal argument that he was within his rights, meaning the papers in question are his personal property, and not the governments. Trump was the first non-president with no background in government service, and it is to be expect that he did, and continues to bring, new perspectives and with them new legal issues that have never been litigated. Unless you consider Trump himself to be an alien power, there is no basis to threaten to bring charges for espionage. And under the 4th amendment, the government has no business using a criminal search warrant to seize property that whose status is being litigated. If the Supreme Court had already ruled against an ex-president in a similar situation, Trump would have no basis – but this is a new legal issue. If the American people in their infinite wisdom elect someone with no experience in government, politics or the military – they have expect such issues, since what is conventional wisdom among the political elites is neither reasonable to everyone else, nor necessarily even lawful.August 15, 2022 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #2115411
I addressed your flawed statement in another post. Just because you can come up with a novel legal theory, it doesn’t shield from seizure. If someone is arrested for carjacking, he could argue that it’s really his car. Or he could show he had the legal right because he did it to rescue someone from a burning building. If law enforcement doesn’t buy it, he can bring up at trial. Otherwise you could never arrest a car jacker.
Contrary to what Trump claims, the FBI has been trying to work the issue of classified docs with Trump for months. If Trump had a good legal argument or evidence that he was within his rights, the DOJ would have dropped everything. Or if it was even a sketchy argument, he could have sought a declaratory judgment. He did not.
Trump lost 60-something cases last year on “novel” legal interpretations. Don’t hold your breath. Perhaps you didn’t see my post to you on this earlier, but if you’ll have to address this as a matter of your credibility.August 15, 2022 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #2115413
In 2017, Trump argued he had the “absolute right” to share anything with Russia. Maybe he did as president. Does anyone here actually think he’d be allowed to share intelligence with them after his presidency?August 15, 2022 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #2115416
CTLAWYER > He cannot perform the required steps himself. It has to be done by proscribed government employees according to set procedures.
Far from me to argue with the lawyer, but this seems to be a machlokes. There is a procedure, but constitution seemly gives President declassification authority (with few exceptions where classification is defined by law, such as nuclear). So “meduariata”, so to speak, he does not have to follow any procedures and, at worst, he violates a “medrabanan” procedure and gets malkos. THis will go circles and get to Supreme court by the time Trump is serving his second term (in the white house).August 15, 2022 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #2115444
er > Trump argued he had the “absolute right” to share anything with Russia.
er, I presume your are a Candian er, so you may not be aware: Trump had serious Anti-Russian policies. For example, he demanded from Germany to cancel NordStream-2 project, build LNG terminal, and increase defense funding. Germans finally agreed to LNG and then reconsidered after Trump lost election to someone. They are now claim to reconsider again without admitting that they were wrong.August 15, 2022 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #2115451🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
Shush!! You’re ruining their narrative!August 15, 2022 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #2115459
> You’re ruining their narrative!
I am helping them to get to a better narrative before they reach a point of no return on their trip to the black hole, H’V.August 15, 2022 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #2115470
Perhaps a minor technicality but the statutes cited in the warrant under which Trump arguably might be charged are based on the term “National Defense Information” not “classified” information. The definition of this term is informed by extensive case law.August 15, 2022 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #2115480
Gadol, that would be a subset. I think information also need to be released and be harmful. In this case, public knowledge seems to be entirely due to DOJ act. interesting, that while this was an issue between maralago and national archives – there were no leaks… this helps narrow down where leaking is coming from.
Anyway, a lot of experts seem to say that there are novel issues here, possibly touched before in the case of Bush Jr verbally authorizing Libby to leak Iraqi info. Libby was not prosecuted for that, at the end, only for perjury.
Also, it seems that the letters from brother Kim mamash were part of items that Trump had and already returned to Archives. I wonder what is the purpose of secrecy here – these are written by NK president! Are we to keep them secret from Chinese or from NY Times?! Did Kim classify them and did he transmit them secure? Maybe he needs to be prosecuted also.August 15, 2022 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #2115485
“has a respectable legal argument that he was within his rights, meaning the papers in question are his personal property, and not the governments”
Nonsense. Federal law says they belong to the people of the United States and are supposed to be in the National Archives.
The defenses given by the Trump Cult are getting more and more ridiculous every day.August 15, 2022 11:53 pm at 11:53 pm #2115490
Not a minor technicality. The language of the statute destroys the argument of Trump’s Cult members that Trump can get off because he declassified everything. Those Cult members are too lazy to actually read the statute.August 16, 2022 8:50 am at 8:50 am #2115564smerelParticipant
>>>Point of information: Ethel was later determined to be innocent. She was stitched up by her brother David
Zero sympathy for her here. She refused to talk during the investigation and trial to save the other communist activists she was dealing with.
Her brother David was recruited by her husband into the spy ring. His false testimony was based on what his wife claimed. (He claimed to have seen it himself when it was really hearsay from his wife who was a Russian spy herself)
So if you think you have a bad family just look at them…August 16, 2022 10:05 am at 10:05 am #2115582
If I recall, while Ethel was convicted for more than she was actually guilty of, she nevertheless was guilty of doing work for her husband’s nuclear spying that was on behalf of the Russians.August 16, 2022 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #2115648anonymous JewParticipant
A lot of people are coming to alot of conclusions about Trump’s guilt without any concrete knowledge. After 5 years of blockbuster media headlines ( Russia Russia Russia ) all claiming to finally being the one to bring down Trump only to fade into nothingness when the facts finally came to light, little wonder that, outside of this blog, the media has such little credibility with Americans. If Trump is actually guilty, how ineffective is the FBI that they still can’t prove it. Remember Adam Schiff repeatedly claiming he had incontrovertible proof of Trump’s guilt but somehow never presented it during the first impeachment? And , as a member of the Jan 6th committee I’m supposed to believe what he says now?August 16, 2022 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #2115661
We still don’t know why Trump took the documents in the first place.August 16, 2022 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #2115663
The Rosenberg story is a tragedy. Even though they had 2 boys and could have both been sentenced to life, or at least sentenced Ethel to life, they were killed. The family members who were the prosecution’s witnesses were clearly trying to protect themselves.August 16, 2022 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #2115677
Anonymous: I understand your gist and I accept that you believe he’s been treated unfairly. But please note your examples aren’t proof: Impeachment is not about proving “guilt.” It’s whatever the legislature votes. Repbulican politicians couldn’t shake off his grip and so didn’t vote to impeach. Many many gop privately can’t stand him and do acknowledge he’s off to say the least. They just don’t want to commit political suicide like Cheney.August 16, 2022 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #2115681
Jack, if a parent murders someone should they be spared on the basis that their children will be orphans otherwise?
It’s a bit like the kid who killed his parents and asked the judge for mercy since he’s an orphan.August 16, 2022 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #2115702
This question is moot because I very rarely believe in capital punishment in the American Justice System. Prosecutors have abused the system too often. There are so many people on death row today who should not be there.
The Rosenberg trial was a prime example of prosecutors abusing the system. It was the 1950’s and America was at war with Russia/Communism. We didn’t wake up until after the 1970’s , Viet Nam and millions of deaths that we couldn’t win the war and we were never going to lose it.
Ethel definitely should not have been put to death for her part.August 16, 2022 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #2115731
Jackk, you are getting personal here. RebE ran away from Russians. Part of their power was having nuclear weapons acquired with the help of spies, these and other ones. So you still worry about the punishment for those who helped oppress millions of people ..August 16, 2022 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #2115818
“If Trump is actually guilty, how ineffective is the FBI that they still can’t prove it.”
You show a basic lack of understanding of the US legal system.
I am not saying Trump is or is NOT guilty of a particular charge, just about to explain how the system works. My bonafides include decades as a member of the Bar in 4 states, as well as admitted to the Federal Bar in districts in NY, MA, CT. I have also taught as an adjunct professor at several US law schools over the years.
The FBI (FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION) is an arm of the Justice Department charged to investigate crime. They report their results back to the Attorney General or applicable US Attorney (depending on the alleged crime and/or location)
The FBI is not charged with proving guilt.
Should the results of the FBI’s investigation cause the Federal Prosecutor to seek an indictment before a Federal Grand Jury, and such indictment is granted……
Then the FEDERAL PROSECUTOR is the person(s) who must prove guilt in a court of law during trial.
FBI gathered evidence, as well as testimony of FBI personnel may be entered in evidence during a trial, BUT the FBI NEVER has to prove anyone or any organization guilty of anyhing.August 16, 2022 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #2115814
You are getting personal because the Rosenberg’s were Jewish.
So the American government killed 2 Jews.
The Rosenberg’s were not the cause of Russia getting Nuclear weapons. Nobody claimed it.
If you don’t believe the FBI at mar-a-lago, then you should equally suspect what they did to the Rosenberg’s.August 16, 2022 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #2115835
Nikita Khrushchev, leader of the Soviet Union from 1953 to 1964, said in his posthumously published memoir that he “cannot specifically say what kind of help the Rosenbergs provided us” but that he learned from Joseph Stalin and Vyacheslav Molotov that they “had provided very significant help in accelerating the production of our atomic bomb.”
Boris V. Brokhovich, the engineer who later became director of Chelyabinsk-40, the plutonium production reactor and extraction facility that the Soviet Union used to create its first bomb material, alleged that Khrushchev was a “silly fool”. He said the Soviets had developed their own bomb by trial and error. “You sat the Rosenbergs in the electric chair for nothing”, he said. “We got nothing from the Rosenbergs.August 16, 2022 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #2115842
Developing nuclear weapons by trial and error is not a good idea, hope nobody tries it at home. Rosenbergs definitely participate in espionage. Whatever one specific spy accomplished is not even relevant. The enemy uses all obtained material, uses that to direct further collection and their own research .. Khrushchev et al would not care about the role of a specific spy, except playing it to gullible Americans for political purposes. So you can safely disregard anything any Soviet leader or engineer said.August 16, 2022 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #2115843
Reb Eliezer, that doesn’t make sense. Nikita Khrushchev died long after the executions. His posthumously published memoir could not have contributed to their being executed.
Boris Brokhovich just wanted to feel like a big shot that he helped develop Russia’s nukes rather than admit Rosenberg helped Russia develop it.August 17, 2022 9:30 am at 9:30 am #2115905ZushyParticipant
“So “meduariata”, so to speak, he does not have to follow any procedures and, at worst, he violates a “medrabanan” procedure and gets malkos. ”
Sorry man malkos are for mid’oraysa
When i was in school he would have been made remove his shoes and to clean up the yard in socks, and perhaps for really serious trouble making he would have to walk round the block a couple of times like that.
Anyway, any slefish person – including virtually all politicians put their own personal gain beofre the state, and then the left wing law enforcement and media chases the right wing
Case in point hunter biden’s laptop
Oid Case in point Bibi netanyahuAugust 20, 2022 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #2116832GotAGoodPointParticipant
zushy- yes being oiver a lav d’oiraisa can warrant malkos, but when something is muter mideoiraisa and midarabonon they assered it (eg. arayos) they cannot put a chiyuv missa but can make malkos – it’s called makkos mardus.August 20, 2022 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #2116851
GotAGPoint: Beis Din has the right, when it deems it necessary for the public order, to impose capital punishment for crimes that Al Pi Halacha aren’t capital crimes.August 20, 2022 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #2116861
Gotagoodpoint beat me to this point, are you a page ahead in daf yomi? Ketubot 45bAugust 23, 2022 8:55 am at 8:55 am #2117522Ray KaufmanParticipant
Thanks CT. You are of course correct. I was just playing the Coffee Room game. I think you mentioned that you specialize in wills and estates. I’m almost 80 years old and my will probably needs updating. how can I get your contact info?August 24, 2022 9:18 am at 9:18 am #2118006
I”H your will should not be needed for another 40+ years…..
That said, I do not solicit new clients and definitely not through the CR,
I strongly suggest you use an attorney in this field who practices in the geographical area of your local Probate/Surrogate Court.
The local attorney knows the peculiarities of the system and the judges/clerks. That save time and money for the estate.
You also should use an attorney who understands the mandatory distributions per halacha in addition to statutory requirements. In most jurisdictions you can not disinherit a spouse or minor children (includes adult dependent children for reasons of mental or physical impairment).
Always mention your direct descendants by name and state whether they are to receive something or not. If you leave one out, they may challenge the will claiming they were overlooked. I am not leaving assets to my children, they are well fixed, but will to my grandchildren, wife and chosen charities. To reinforce this, my children and their spouses are all named in my will and left $10 each. This tells the court you did not forget a child, but deliberated and made a calculated decision on their legacy. My children, all attorneys in the CTL firm, will not be insulted, as this has been discussed. They do not know the rest of my intentions and will not find out during my lifetime.
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