Kapparos: Chickens, Fish, or Money?

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  • #661015

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Without real t’shuva, tashlich and kaparos are meaningless.

    #661016

    lesschumras
    Participant

    A600KiloBear said

    “BS”D

    Most of the chilul Hashem caused by kapporos is that caused by the self styled modern Jews who cause trouble for their betters by stirring up all sorts of allegations and complaining, which in turn leads to outright mesira. They are unable to live Yiddishe lives because of their own weaknesses, and instead of improving themselves they complain about those who are stronger than they are. “

    and how do you know this piece of lashon hora?

    #661017

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    No loshon horo – we daven for these people three times a day (velamalshenim…..).

    #661018

    Feif Un
    Participant

    A600KiloBear: It doesn’t matter if someone snitches. The fact is that it creates a chillul Hashem, and needs to be avoided. Don’t provide anything to snitch about, and it won’t be a problem.

    #661019

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    Yes, the snitching provides the chilul Hashem because once some lowlife snitches the police will come out to make problems.

    The “violations” described in Monsey are hardly violations in any normal animal operation. Chickens have an awful odor – period. An open trash can – wow!

    #661020

    Feif Un
    Participant

    You can trivialize it all you want. The law is what it is. They broke it. Period.

    #661021

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    There are homeowners who have more violations than that in their own homes, and they themselves don’t even know it until they perhaps get an inspection so they can sell their homes. The question is who in the world got those inspectors out there and the answer is all of those who agitated against kapporos and brought their opinions, which stink far more than dead chickens and are just plain rishus.

    Please have the names Philip and Hannah Schein in mind when saying birkas haminim, especially during this season when they are most active.

    #661022

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    Substitute store owners for homeowners and you have a truly parallel situation. Plenty of my friends who have retail locations are in violation of some technicality and may or may not know it, but because no one moisers them and there is no real health hazard even if there could be a nuisance, they are not harassed by inspectors.

    The law is so arbitrarily enforced when it comes to technical health, building etc code violations that the only way to get busted in NY is usually when a moiser rears his ugly head (or when you want to sell or insure a property and find out that you have a violation that you did not know was such).

    #661023

    squeak
    Participant

    Feif Un – I advise you to pick up a Rambam Hilchos Chovel U’mazzik Ch. 8. If you’re a snitch, you’d better make sure I never find you. I have a big ta’aveh to be mekayim this Rambam.

    #661024

    squeak
    Participant

    And since I know you won’t look it up, I found it for you and I am pasting it here:

    ?. ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ??????. ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ??????. ??? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???:

    ?. ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????. ????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??????. ?????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?????. ?????? ?? ??????? ?? ?? ?????. ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???:

    #661025

    squeak
    Participant

    Halacha 9 addresses what you said It doesn’t matter if someone snitches…. Don’t provide anything to snitch about, and it won’t be a problem. The Rambam clearly says that it is a problem. This is before the fact. This is instruction for the would-be moiser.

    Halacha 10 is before and after the fact. It applies to everyone else besides the moiser. It contains our instructions on how to deal with cretins who snitch.

    In an ex-post facto situation (which is the case here), I would advise learning the first 8 halachos in the Perek, which state that a moiser has to pay damages. That would be the path toward teshuva.

    #661026

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Squeak,

    So, hypothetically, if my neighbor blocks my driveway repeatedly, and after a hundred warnings I have him ticketed, that he can come and kill me?

    The Wolf

    #661027

    Joseph
    Participant

    Azoi shteit. Genuk.

    #661028

    squeak
    Participant

    Wolf – I’m really not interested in being quoted on your blog. Presumably, if causing him to receive a ticket is mesirah, you would not be allowed to do so. You would have to find another way to protect your private property. I would suggest that it is possible to find another way.

    ames, we are supposed to have law and order, but we are not supposed to give over a Jew to be punished by the authorities. We can either enforce order with whatever punishment we are able to give or we can try to persuade. Not informing does not mean that the authorities won’t catch and punish the offender on their own.

    #661029

    We don’t moiser yidden, I guess, in extreme cases ask a shayloh.

    #661030

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf – I’m really not interested in being quoted on your blog.

    So noted. I won’t comment about this on my blog.

    I would suggest that it is possible to find another way.

    True… but we’re talking post-facto, no? So, at that point, wouldn’t the clause of ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???

    actually make it mandatory for him to kill me?

    The Wolf

    #661031

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    WolfishMusings:

    Avid Inish Dina D’Nafshiy Bemakom P’saidah. I’m not a Rav, but since you can (probably) flip the car out of the way and onto the street to remove your own car from your own driveway (or if you have a Hummer, ride over his car), you can probably get it towed (I don’t know about a ticket, as that won’t solve the problem 🙂

    Also suggest you get a BD to call him to Din. If he does not listen, he is a mesarev(?) and the BD will allow you to go to court.

    #661032

    mepal
    Member

    What about if you might be fined for NOT reporting, say, to childrens services…

    #661033

    My tayvoh from that Rambam is growing… I’m just waiting to pounce 😉 Who’s maskim?

    #661038

    squeak
    Participant

    Wolf, thank you.

    In answer to your question, I must first of all say that I am not entirely qualified to answer. With that out of the way….

    Firstly, the clause you quoted is regarding the moiser who is on his way to do mesirah, and not post facto (the sentence before is post facto). I perhaps did a desservice by only posting Halachos 9 and 10, because much of the first 8 deal with bringing a moiser to B”D and making him pay. So I would have to assume that in a case where the moiser wants to right the wrong he is not to be killed. But I would need to study the Rambam carefully before answering you with conviction.

    Secondly, the logic that GAW brings may point to the fact that the particular example you gave is not necessarily mesirah. I would say when in doubt, don’t inform, but I certainly would have to be 100% sure that mesirah applies to the specific case at hand. Damaging someone’s business is certainly mesirah, even if the chickens are smelly.

    mepal, without question you are still not allowed to inform on someone just to save yourself from loss. The Rambam says this specifically.

    #661039

    squeak
    Participant

    ames perhaps you can describe the hypocrisy

    #661040

    squeak
    Participant

    Here is the entire Perek.

    ??? ?

    ????? ???? ????? ??? ?????

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    ?. ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????. ??? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ????????. ??? ??? ???? ??? ??”? ???? ???? ???? ????. ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????

    ?. ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ???. ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ????. ???? ???? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ???. ?? ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????. ??? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ??????

    ?. ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????. ??”? ????? ???? ?????. ??? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????. ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??????? ?? ????? ???. ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ?????. ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ????

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    ?. ?? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?????. ??? ????? ???? ????. ??? ?? ?? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???. ?? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ???????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??. ???? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ????:

    ?. ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????. ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????. ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ???????. ?????? ???? ??? ?????. ?? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ????. ??? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?????:

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    ?. ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ??????. ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ??????. ??? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???

    ?. ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????. ????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??????. ?????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?????. ?????? ?? ??????? ?? ?? ?????. ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???

    ??. ??? ????? ??? ??? ????. ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????. ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??????? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ??? ????. ??? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??????. ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??????. ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???”? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???????

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    ??. ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????. ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????. ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???????

    #661041

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    No reason to believe that FeifUn is a snitch chas vesholom, only that his views are clouded by secular values which is very far from being a Philip Schein or Solomon D-ek.

    Mesira is probably allowed in cases of pikuach nefesh which could include child abuse, spousal abuse etc but NOT in cases of even real, let alone imagined, chicken abuse. Ask a legitimate posek before you even think of going to the authorities in any case whatsoever.

    #661042

    The World Chicken Protection (WCP)

    #661043

    I just want to make one thing clear (on topic). My family is a russian baal tshuvah, but my grandma grew up in a shtetl in Ukraine, and one of the things she remembers from her childhood was doing kaporos on erev yom kippur, with chickens, and shechting them, and giving it as a nedoova to the ohrmeleit (aniyim). She also remembers making matzos and several other things. Doing kapporos with chickens is an experience not even soviet jews would forget. It is a minhag etched into the nishomos of yidden.

    #661044

    Feif Un
    Participant

    I never said I’m a snitch, and I definitely don’t encourage people to snitch. My point was that we shouldn’t even have anything to snitch about. We have a mitzvah to follow the laws. If we do something wrong and someone snitches, it’s not his fault – it’s the fault of the people who broke the law.

    As for the halachah of a moser, there was a psak given recently after the events of Deal occurred. I believe it was R’ Moshe Shternbuch, althogh I’m not 100% sure. Basically, he said that there is an obligation of dina d’malchusa in the US, and if someone breaks the law here, they are transgressing the mitzvah. In such a case, there is no din of mesirah on it. Mesirah applies when someone did nothing halachically wrong.

    I’ve been told that in countries where they make laws specifically targeting Jews, there is no dina d’malchusa. So, when there were taxes levied on Jews and nobody else, snitching on someone was mesirah. Snitching on a criminal in the US is not mesirah.

    #661045

    Joseph
    Participant

    Mesira applies even if the law was broken.

    #661046

    mybat
    Member

    You could warn the person that’s breaking the law before setting them up and snitching on them. Don’t ya think?

    #661047

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    If we do something RIGHT and someone snitches because he is ASHAMED of what we are doing, and the powers that be find a way to close it down, then that is mesira and the person who snitches is who we think of in velamalshenim.

    That psak is not a blanket psak either. We don’t go snitching because we see something wrong. Maybe in the case of a D-ek where if he had been stopped his investors would not have lost hundreds of millions of dollars and he would not have become a true moiser who ENTRAPPED people into breaking the law, there is no mesira. Maybe in the case of a Ponzi scammer there is no mesira. Definitely in the case of a Schein trespassing on private property to film kaporos in a way that causes damage including anti-Semitism there is no mesira to call the cops and get him booked for trespass. In any case a shyla must be asked even if it is an abuser who is being reported.

    But to just go and report a violation for the sake of doing so, where there is nothing halachically wrong except MAYBE dina demalchusa dina as someone decides he sees it? And thereby causing financial damage to a Yid who is not causing real damage to anyone else? If any rav claims that is not mesira, then he is a rav who should be paskening only after the latest time for Mincha.

    #661048

    squeak
    Participant

    Feif – your point was that it’s OK to snitch if someone does something wrong. You are wrong.

    Joseph is correct that it applies even when the law is broken.

    Regarding the Deal incident that you bring up, you have no right to extrapolate from that psak you “heard” to the general case. Nor do you have the right to use such an extrapolation to rationalize your personal views that fly in the face of the Rambam.

    #661049

    squeak
    Participant

    ames-

    1) We most definitely should not protect a bad guy. But we may not deal with it by snitching to authorities. Let’s find other options.

    2) An Italian maybe, but not an Italian Jew.

    3) I don’t understand your point here. A person who does something wrong can still get jail time. The only point I made is that I as a Torah observant Jew cannot be the one to give the person over to the authorities.

    I would be glad to translate the Rambam, but I don’t have the time right now. And I don’t entirely trust the translated versions online.

    #661050

    Whatever the case I think it’s important that the minhag in klal yisroel of doing kaporos with chickens continues… however it is possible… moisrim or no moisrim

    #661051

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Whatever. My point wasn’t to argue whether it’s mesirah or not. My point was that just because it’s a small infraction doesn’t make it ok. They broke the law, and created a chillul Hashem.

    #661052

    squeak
    Participant

    Feif – agreed. We should not be breaking the law. Mesirah is wrong, so is breaking the law. The two are separate topics.

    #661053

    I think we must use chickens no matter what, and if the gov. asers it, we’ll have to find out how to deal with it. But why doesn’t the gov. let anyways?

    #661054

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    I think we must use money no matter what. Even if the government takes all of it away, we must find a way to get some 😉

    #661055

    mepal
    Member

    LOL!

    #661056

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    ames, spill the beans- who are you just itching to maaser on? I can get you a heter from Deal… (jk)

    #661057

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    I’ve heard of the “deal” psak before and that it applies to general situations.

    I hate when people hide behind “you can’t moser me” (and I’ve heard this mentioned by people in real life). Whether or not someone may report wrongdoings, there is no excuse for some of the violations that go on. I’m tired of the “oh others do it too” and “this is our mesorah.” No, our mesorah is to do kaparos with chickens (if thats your minhag) and there is no reason to break the law. We can do both.

    #661058

    cherrybim
    Participant
    #661059

    mybat
    Member

    I don’t understand why the kaparot can’t be done in an proper manner? I’ve never seen kaparot in NY. I’m only saying what I read here.

    #661060

    what makes the way we do it nyc with chickens improper?

    #661061

    mybat
    Member

    I didn’t say that. I’m just reading everyones posts.

    #661062

    Feif Un
    Participant

    mi keamcha yisroel: how about the fact that every year, there are violations handed out for breaking the health code?

    #661063

    tzippi
    Member

    Mybat: it’s the volume. Back in the heim the shochtim were shechting these chickens anyway. Now you have a whole kaparos industry set up that hasn’t had all the kinks ironed out.

    What happened in between? All those years in the US once shechita was institutionalized already, what was kaparos with chicken like? Were there just fewer people interested so it could be run in a more orderly acceptable way? How to get back there? With a lot of input from a responsible rabbinic committee and added expense that no one should complain about, I’d think.

    #661064

    Jothar
    Member

    There are more than health code violations. There are kashrus problems as well, along with choshen mishpat problems. Those, of course, is forgetting about the tzaar baalei chayim problems from leaving chicken crates piled on top of each other without food or water, causing chickens to suffer from both hunger, thirst, and being defectated on by chickens in the crate above them. Chicken crates are tossed around haphazardly, resulting in broken chicken limbs and rendering them treifos. Secondly, the speed of the shechita results in many treifos and neveilos. Finally, some of these places sell the same chickens over and over again.The Kav Hayashar brings a story with the Arizal of someone who was cursed with childlessnesss for causing chickens to suffer. Mr rav recommended using money unless the place is a certified place. Otherwise, “yatza scharo behefseido”- your loss is greater than your gain.

    As for mesira, the din of Rav Moshe sternbuch stems from the gemara in bava Metzia (somewhere in the mis-pehs, forget where exactly) where Rabbi Elazar bar Shimon worked for the government arresting Jewish thieves. There is a psak that it’s muttar to work for the government as an auditor. Every case needs to be addressed to a rav, of course.

    I think in Boro Park, the minhag is to call a private tower to tow the offending car blocking the driveway. Mesira isn’t omerta. It’s not about protecting criminals- it’s about preventing damage. It’s hypocritical for someone stealing Jewish people’s money to say “you can’t maser on me”. Both are hezek mammon. If the only way to stop him is mesira, it’s not an issur mesirah. As always, ask a knowledgeable rav first.

    #661065

    It’s the alte minhag of klal yisroel to do kaporos with chickens. Just because there are mishandles and chickens occasionally (or not, idk, at least where i do it it never happened out of hundreds of chickens, but once it was unexpectandly cold and a few died, but that has nothing to do with the fact they were doing kaporos it could happen anytime) it doesn’t mean to chas veshalom stop the minhag! We have to work to solve the problems not eradicate the minhag hakodosh!

    #661066

    mepal
    Member

    PY 613, we’re not eradicating minhagim here. We’re discussing them. Another issue that disturbs me greatly, is the fact that there are young children handling the chickens and doing the kapparos! I mean, this is insanity. How can mothers let their young boys handle chickens all night? I was completely shocked the first time I saw this.

    #661068

    sorry, but if you’re just discussing it it is ok i guess. what’s wrong with young boys btw?

    #661069

    Jothar
    Member

    It may be an alte minhag but it’s by no means an uncontroversial one halachically. Also, why is the issue of neveilos caused by a shochet who hurriedly shechts a bunch of chickens without checking his knife not a real issue halachically that should override the minhag kadosh of kapparos? Ditto with tzaar baalei chaim and treifos caused by chicken mishandling. Finally, reselling the same chickens to different people is geneivah, pure and simple.

    If you want to see real health code violations, go to Chinatown any day of the week. If you want to see halacha violations, many kapparos centers are “begematria cheit”.

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