Karpas – is any ha’adoma ok?

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  • #1703271

    Karpas – some use potato, celery or onion.

    But isn’t any ha’adoma ok?

    Why can’t I use watermelon as karpas?

    #1703298

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Why can’t I use watermelon as karpas?”

    You can

    #1703355

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    R’ Pinchas Teitz zt”l used to use a banana. I believe the minhag is continued by his children.

    #1703359

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    But isn’t any ha’adoma ok?
    Yes

    #1703365

    5ish
    Participant

    Agav, there are those who are choshed that a potatoe is not hoadama and therefore are careful not to use potato.

    #1703366

    wstntme111
    Participant

    My family uses pineapple

    #1703367

    To clarify: Is the TYPE of ha’adoma considered a “minhag”? Would anyone say that if your family used for years fruit X for shecheyonu on Rosh Hashona, that the family “minhag” is to davka use fruit x?!

    You use a she’hechiyonu on Rosh Hashana. Makes no difference WHICH fruit! Why would karpas be any different – any ha’adoma? When did it become a “minhag:” to use a certain vegetable (by certain families/groups)??!!

    #1703369

    And by karpas it must be less than a kzayis (an olive) – which means is such a small amount you can’t have more then even the size of a raisin. But matza requires that you must eat a kzayis (an olive) and that means you need to eat a half box of matza without interruption, within a few seconds…Like, are we talking about the same shiyur kzayis?!

    #1703370

    rational
    Participant

    Using any “adamah” is ok from a purely halachic bracha standpoint. A strawberry also works.
    A normal way of thinking would suggest some sort of green vegetable akin to real “karpas” which is a type of celery.
    In Europe these types were scarce , and some, like parsley, were unknown, resulting in odd vegetables being used, such as the potato . Sometimes the narrow halachah or minhag isn’t enough, and using common sense is beneficial.

    #1703392

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    We the Oberlander use red radishes. Don’t make up your own but follow a custom. That is a zechus to follow a custom. They used potatoes because it was most common.

    #1703401

    Meno
    Participant

    Agav, there are those who are choshed that a potatoe is not hoadama and therefore are careful not to use potato.

    What bracha do they make on it?

    #1703439

    “Yhere is azechus to follow a custom” – as asked earlier, is the “type” of haadoma considered a minhag too? Like, is the type od shehechiyonu used on Rosh Hashanah also minhag (or ANY new fruit works equally as well)?

    #1703436

    funnybone
    Participant

    what bracha is raw onion?

    #1703430

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    5ish:
    I think the chashash for not using potatoes is that they cannot be eaten raw. I’ve never heard of anyone holding that potatoes are not adamah.

    Rational:
    Parsley was probably the minhag in much of Europe. The kitzur records it as the prevalent minhag, and I’ve known people from central Europe who use it. I’m not sure where you heard Europeans hadn’t discovered parsley.

    #1703460

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Meno,

    Agav, there are those who are choshed that a potatoe is not hoadama and therefore are careful not to use potato.

    What bracha do they make on it?”

    Maybe he meant raw potato.

    #1703467

    These days many eat raw onions in various dishes such as salad, in a hamburger etc. Many varieties are mild or even sweet and edible raw.

    #1703474

    Herring comes with raw onions “marinated” in salt water (brine).

    #1703476

    rational
    Participant

    Dear Neville
    What you said is interesting. Parsley in Hebrew is Petrozilia פטרוזיליה
    The Aruch Hashulchan writes that karpas is petrozilia, “ואין אנו יודעים מה זה”

    Possibly Rav Ganzfried had it in Hungary and Rav Epstein did not have it (or even knew what it was) in Lithuania.

    #1703485

    There is a chashash that potatoes are kitniyos. Many of kitniyos issues apply: potatoes can produce “flour” (starch), grow near grains etc. There are opinions that treat potatoes as kitniyos (see Netay Gavriel etc).

    #1703561

    Milhouse
    Participant

    5ish is referring to Tzanz and its offshoots such as Bobov.

    Meno, they say shehakol.

    Neville, no, it has nothing to do with it not being eaten raw. Plenty of vegetables are not eaten raw, but when they are cooked they are ha’adama. And Avram, he did not mean raw potato, which everyone agrees is shehakol. He meant cooked potato, on which Tzanzers say shehakol because the Divrei Chaim confused potatoes (kartofel) with truffles (tartuffe) and thought they are fungi.

    #1703563

    Milhouse
    Participant

    DaMoshe, this custom started with Rav Teitz’s father-in-law, Rav Prell. The reason was in order to teach people derech agav that the brocho on bananas is ho’adomo.

    Rebbetzin, where a practice has a reason, it makes sense to continue it.

    #1703564

    Milhouse
    Participant

    A reason not to use watermelon, pineapple, banana, or even potato is that it’s too easy to eat a kezayis of them. Using radish or onion makes it more likely that you will only eat a tiny bit.

    #1703602

    5ish
    Participant

    The sefer Nezer Hakodesh, a compendium of minhagei Melitz, Ropshitz, and other related chasidic groups, brings that Reb Naftali Tzvi of Ropshitz held that potatoes are shehakol. It further mentions that the Yismach Moshe originally made Hoadama until he heard that The Ropshitzer made shehakol. He subsequently looked in the Aruch (I assume it means HaAruch M’Shach) and saw that he says potatoes and mushrooms are shehakol. There are various other sources quoted in the footnotes and I do not remember them all but if you search “the potato in halacha” there is an article from the Kof-K which notes the opinion that potatoes are shehakol because they grow from the air and not from the ground, and it cites Lekutei Maharich page 127 (old), Divrei Yatziv O.C. 1:82, Shulchan Hatohar 204:3, Zer Zahav 2,
    Pnei Ha’shulchan page 367, Shraga Hameir 4:11:3, 6:119, Mekor Ha’beracha page 69:52

    #1703613

    ChadGadya
    Participant

    Any ho’adamah is acceptable, but it’s silly to use something that doesn’t taste good dipped in vinegar or salt-water!
    For me, that means anything sweet like pineapple, watermelon, banana, and strawberry are out.

    #1703618

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Rebbetzin, there are NO opinions that potatoes are kitniyos. I have looked, and there is NO source, anywhere, reporting first-hand knowledge of any community where potatoes were forbidden, or any rov who forbade them. I know there is a peculiar belief circulating that the Chayei Odom forbade them, but it’s not true. He merely reports a rumor he heard that in some other country they forbid potatoes, but he never saw it and does not endorse it.

    #1703625

    Milhouse
    Participant

    5ish, no, he certainly doesn’t mean Ha’aruch Meshach. That is a commentary on the first volume of Yoreh Deah; how would potatoes or mushrooms come up there? And why would you even think of that sefer in the first place? No, he means exactly what he says, the Aruch. But the Aruch never heard of potatoes, let alone saw one, and obviously does not mention them at all. He says truffles and mushrooms are shehakol, because they are fungi, not plants. The Ropshitzer simply confused potatoes with truffles. And of course there is no possible dispute as to the FACT that potatoes are plants, not fungi. So the Ropshitzer’s psak was wrong, and it is wrong for anyone to follow it.

    #1703630

    Fuynnybone – raw onion is shehakol. (according to some poskim)

    The Nitei Gavriel states outright any “YereK” whose brocha is Borei Pri Haadama is acceptable except for those that re acceptable as maror.

    Hilchos Pesach Vol II, Perek Pey Beis. Sif Daled

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46448&st=&pgnum=404

    Sif hey – Nohagin Lchatchila lachzor achar yerk hanikra Karpas.
    Sif Vav – Petrozila Vyeish Omrim Celery
    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46448&st=&pgnum=405

    Sif Zayin- Yeish Nahagu Likach minim acheirim

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46448&st=&pgnum=406

    #1703641

    5ish
    Participant

    Milhouse, I assumed it could not refer to the Sefer HaAruch because it was written hundreds of years before potatoes were brought to Europe. So, I assumed somehow it came up in the Aruch MeShach. Anyways I was not commenting on the validity of holding of any psak, I was just bringing up that some have such a custom.

    #1703659

    Milhouse – “Rebbetzin, there are NO opinions that potatoes are kitniyos. I have looked, and there is NO source, anywhere, reporting first-hand knowledge of any community where potatoes were forbidden, or any rov who forbade them. I know there is a peculiar belief circulating that the Chayei Odom forbade them, but it’s not true. He merely reports a rumor he heard that in some other country they forbid potatoes, but he never saw it and does not endorse it.”

    The Pri Migadem s. 453 Mishbitzos Zahav ss.1 and a”a s. 464 ss.1 writes that potatoes are mutter IF it is not in a place that prohibit the. (This implies that such places exist! – or else he would write that “celery” is mutter except in places that prohinit!)

    The Nishmas Adam s. 20 that the custom was not to eat potatoes except during a great hunger the Bais Din convened to be mattir it to avoid danger and extreme hunger.

    It is brought in Alef that Rebbe Yehoshua from Belz was makpid not to eat potatoes.

    One sefer says that we are all fortunate that there were no potatoes in times of Geonim for if they would have them then, they would surely prohibit them as kitniyos because of their ability to produce flour.

    #1703667

    With all the mild and sweet varieties of onions, many are edible raw and are used that way – in salads.

    Herring comes with marinated onions which although kept longer, are basically raw onions dipped in salt water for an extended period.

    Would one minute of raw onion in salt water be shehakol and half hour in salt water be haadoma? Who sets the time limit?!

    #1703764

    Question:

    Who puts the karpas on a fork when dunking it or do you hold it in hand when dunking?

    Who eats it from a fork and who holds it in their hand (dripping wet) when eating it?

    Question 2:

    A pickle is a vegetable: ha’adoma, and already dunked in salt water, anyone think it’s a good idea to use it for karpas – have one on the seder ka’ara and the rest just pull it out of jar?

    #1703995

    Meno
    Participant

    I hold it with a fork. It’s hard to dunk a raisin-sized piece of watermelon without it slipping out of your hand.

    If you use a pickle, you wouldn’t be dipping it. So then when the kid asks why we dip twice, you’ll say “What are you talking about? We only dip once.” and he’ll feel stupid, and it’s not nice to make someone feel stupid, especially a kid, and especially on pesach.

    #1704134

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Reb. The ArtScroll book Law of Brochos states that Raw onions are a shehakol. The fact that raw onions are put in a salad or even herring just makes it an ikor/tofel issue. How many people do you know who bites into a raw onion to eat it like an apple. As o your comment about a kezayis, I do not know of any shiur kezayis that states you need to eat a half box of matzah.

    #1704237

    GAON
    Participant

    One sefer says that we are all fortunate that there were no potatoes in times of Geonim for if they would have them then, they would surely prohibit them as kitniyos because of their ability to produce flour.”

    That very same sefer states that it is indeed NOT kitniyos as we do not have the power to be Gozar new Gezeros. Only what the Gaonim prohibited are included not any new…

    #1704239

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    As to eating karpas with your hand, that’s the whole reason for washing your hands without a brocha. Wet fruit and vegetables muchshar lkabel tumah that one is required to wash for. using a fork defeats the whole reason for washing.

    #1704297

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    My husband was told by the rav that you cannot use a fork instead of washing your hands.

    #1704372

    lacisrmma “As to eating karpas with your hand, that’s the whole reason for washing your hands without a brocha. Wet fruit and vegetables muchshar lkabel tumah that one is required to wash for. using a fork defeats the whole reason for washing.”

    So, do you dunk with your hand AND eat with your hand, or, do you dunk with a fork and then eat with your hand?

    Does dunking require hand or just eating (or maybe neither since it was muchshar l’kabel tuma)?

    #1704376

    Gaon – “That very same sefer states that it is indeed NOT kitniyos as we do not have the power to be Gozar new Gezeros. Only what the Gaonim prohibited are included not any new…”

    The Gaonim didn’t have peanuts and were never gozer on peanuts (indeed, that is why Reb Moshe ate peanuts on Pessach) yet nearly every yid doesn’t use peanuts on pessach!

    So “my nafka mina” between potatoes and peanuts?! – both should equally be kitniyos!

    #1704402

    lacisrmma “Reb. The ArtScroll book Law of Brochos states that Raw onions are a shehakol. The fact that raw onions are put in a salad or even herring just makes it an ikor/tofel issue. How many people do you know who bites into a raw onion to eat it like an apple.”

    I guess there are two opinions on this. You cite for shehakol on raw onions – ArtScroll for shehakol.

    I will cite for Adama on raw onions:

    Shulchan Aruch Harav 205:1 , Seder Birchat Hanenin 6:12; Chok Yaakov on Orech Chaim 475:16; Rabbi Sholomo Gantzfried in Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 52:5.

    These respectable sources hold: since it is common to eat raw onions with bread, the onions still have the status of a food item that is normally eaten raw. Therefore the appropriate blessing is Ha’adamah, even when the onions are eaten alone

    #1704423

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Harav Dovid Feinstein in his Kol Dodi hagadah states that raw onions are not a borei pri hadama. Once again I don understand your proof as the onions are being eaten with something else not by themselves.

    #1704441

    knaidlach
    Participant

    the rebbe writes in his hagada (ואנו נוהגין ליקח בצל (או תפוח אדמה

    #1704428

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    The Mishna Berurah states (205:5) soft ontions one does not make a vorie pri haadoma, except in areas where they are eaten without bread, but in our areas where raw garlic and raw onions re not eaten by Bnai adom even when soft without bread the brocha is shehakoland he quotes the nishmas adom that the brocha is shehhakol.

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49624&st=&pgnum=222

    #1704438

    GAON
    Participant

    So “my nafka mina” between potatoes and peanuts?! ”

    Very simple diff, they are totally two diff shailos:
    Peanuts – I recall , is if it is included in the ‘min’ of Kitniyos and thus included in the very original Gezero of the Gaonim…

    Whereas, potatoes – everyone agrees that its a “min” on its own, the only issue is that “potentially” it can produce flour and should come under a new ban, but after all it was never included in the very original ban.

    #1704443

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    If I get people to start eating raw onions whole, will the bracha change?

    #1704445

    ” I don understand your proof ” – there is much that you do not understand. It is not “my” proof, but the logic of the great baalei halacha I cited. When we don’t understand something, the fault lies with us, not with those that DO understand and know what they are saying.

    #1704499

    RebYidd23 – “If I get people to start eating raw onions whole, will the bracha change?”

    Would it matter if those other people are Litvish, Yekkas, Chabad, Sefardim? Like, why should MY brocha change just because Chabad eat raw onions?! (They actually do, I hear, for karpas).

    #1704529

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    It’s actually unclear whether one makes a bracha on non-food items such as sneakers, shampoo, onions etc.

    #1704556

    RY33 – It’s actually unclear whether one makes a bracha on non-food items such as sneakers, shampoo

    But if didn’t eat it that season, definitely shehechiyonu!?

    #1704557

    So, the guy that didn’t eat watermelon or strawberry that year, and uses it for karpas, does he make shehechiyonu?

    Wouldn’t Haggada mention that BTW if you didn’t eat parsnip or radish this year, remember to make shehechiyanu?!

    #1704566

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Rebbetzin:

    The Pri Migadem s. 453 Mishbitzos Zahav ss.1 and a”a s. 464 ss.1 writes that potatoes are mutter IF it is not in a place that prohibit the. (This implies that such places exist!

    No, it merely implies that the Pri Megodim thought such places might exist, somewhere in the world. Perhaps he even heard rumors of such places. But he had no first-hand knowledge of them, because there weren’t any.

    The Nishmas Adam s. 20 that the custom was not to eat potatoes except during a great hunger the Bais Din convened to be mattir it to avoid danger and extreme hunger.

    Again, he was not speaking of his own knowledge. He had never seen such a place, or any evidence of its existence. He heard rumors, that is all.

    That is the history of this strange myth. Nobody ever writes that here we ban them, let alone that I ban them. It’s always someone else, far away, where I’ve never been.

    It is brought in Alef that Rebbe Yehoshua from Belz was makpid not to eat potatoes.

    What is “Alef”? In any case, all kinds of people don’t eat all kinds of things on Pesach , without thinking they’re forbidden. Belzer don’t eat carrots, but they don’t asser them. Lubavitchers don’t eat radishes, Oberlanders don’t eat fish, Egyptians, who do eat kitniyos, don’t eat chickpeas. So it doesn’t surprise me that someone didn’t eat potatoes, but it would greatly surprise me if he held they were kitniyos.

    One sefer says that we are all fortunate that there were no potatoes in times of Geonim for if they would have them then, they would surely prohibit them as kitniyos because of their ability to produce flour.

    That is pure speculation. “One sefer” can say whatever it likes about what could have been in some alternative universe, but in this universe nobody ever prohibited potatoes. Nobody.

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