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Rebbetzin, every posek I’ve seen on the subject, except Reb Moshe, takes for granted that the gezera (or takana) was not on specific species but on the entire categories of seeds that grow in pods and pesudo-grains, and therefore peanuts are forbidden. The best proof is from mustard, which is forbidden only because it grows in pods. Corn was also unknown when the gezera was made, and yet not even Reb Moshe permitted it.
Re: Tibulei bemashkeh, something that is never eaten with the hands does not require washing when it’s indeed not eaten with the hands. E.g. there is no need to wash for cereal with milk, since it’s always eaten with a spoon. But something that is usually eaten with the hands requires washing even if you happen to be eating it without them.
This is why it’s a good idea to cultivate the habit of always eating pickles with a fork, even when you’ve already washed for bread or for some other wet thing. That way when you eat them outside a meal, with a fork, you don’t have to wash for them.
Since most people eat common vegetables for their area for Karpas there is no reason to remind someone about a shechiyanu. Or you may have it in mind with the shehechiyanu of kiddush ( as one does on the new fruit or clothes the second night of Rosh Hashana)
1. we use baked potatos.
2. I find it interesting that you didn’t quote Reb Moshe Feinstein Tzatzal (I”M OC 64) who states “shehleolom mevarech Shehhakol ahl shumim ubtzalim bein chaim bein mevushalim lvad metigun btzalim bshemen oh bchemah mevarech B”PH.http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14673&st=&pgnum=138
Milhouse:
That’s interesting about Sanz; I was not aware of that.
It’s not entirely true that all say shehakol on raw potatoes. The Mishnah Berurah says no brochah is made on them sense they aren’t really eaten like that if I recall correctly.I believe there is a shittah independent of the Sanz minhag you mentioned that karpas should have to be naturally occurring adamah, not something that has to be cooked into it. I’ll try to track down a source if I can.
Regarding onions, isn’t the Minhag haGra and minhag Lubavitch to use onions for karpas?
Neville, yes, Lubav uses raw onions. The reason is not recorded, but remember where Lubav come from, and not much green was available at Pesach time. I was told that the reason to use onion rather than potato is to ensure that one will not eat a kezayis, but I have not seen this in writing.
(Consider also the northern European practice of using horseradish for maror, and subsequently the mistaken belief that it is “tamcho” which is one of the 5 kinds of maror. In northern Europe none of the 5 kinds were available, so they substituted what they had, and over time developed the belief that it was one of the kinds. But everyone agrees that where lettuce is available it should be used.)
There is a story that the Chayeh Adam wanted to asser potatoes for kitniyas so the people said you want to take away the chayeh adam.
but it’s silly to
If only that was the standard for some posts in the CR. 😀
The Wolf
reb. Bottom line there are poskim with broad shoulders staing the same issue and coming to different conclusions. i am not sure our eating of uncooked onions in salads and the like changes the brocha from shehhakol according to Reb Moshe and the Mishna Berura.
Laskern, there is indeed such a story, but it’s not true.
They say that potatoes were not available at the time of the Geonim, so the gezara was not on it even though we make flour from it.
“They” can say all kinds of things but it doesn’t make them true. Corn was not available at the time of the geonim either (not that the geonim had anything to do with this gezera, which was completely unknown where they lived, but it was also not available in 12th-century France, where it seems this gezera originated) and yet everyone agrees it is forbidden.
And don’t be so sure that making flour has anything to do with the reason for the gezera. Some achronim suggested it as a possible reason, but who says they were right?
כרפס – אותיות פרך ס
Tosfas in Shabbos indicates that פרך in את בש is וג’ל refering to ל’ט מלאכות for shabbos that they worked in mitzraim that was considered work and therefore forbidden to do on shabbos.
Milhouse, about kitniyas look at the Mordechai 588 תקפ’ח.
כרפס – אותיות פרך ס
Laskern,It’s ס פרך and my Rosh Hayeshiva rabbi Zweig says it’s backwards because the פרך was men doing women work and women doing men work
Rashi does not say that the coat was made from carpas just where we find the word pas which means
כרים של פסים cushions of linen.The Chasam Sofer says that using horseradish for maror has a basis of תמכא – תמיד מספרים כבוד א-ל.
The kaarah has things that reflect our greatness and lowliness. See the Malbim the kashye of the mah nishtano is the history in a nutshell. The Rav Abarbanel says that the question is why do we do contradictory things?
There is no such opinion. Both coffee and chocolate grow on trees, and therefore by definition cannot be kitniyos.
Laskern, Mordechai on which mesechta? Pesochim?
Milhouse, obviously Pesochim
I know of a Rosh Yeshiva (no longer with us in this world) who wanted to mekayem 2 criteria when doing Karpas.
1. Dip a borei pri haadamah in a liquis that requires netilas yadayim.
2. Dipping should bw done derech cheirus to show that we are bnei melachim.
His choice was to dip strawberries in champagne.RG, the Shaarei Teshuva does not cite any opinion that coffee is kitniyos. On the contrary, he says it definitely is not, and the great person who was cited as refraining from it did so because he worried that ignorant people would think it was kitniyos, and if they saw him using it they would think kitniyos are permitted.
In other words, your claim that “there is an opinion that coffee (made from coffee beans) is kitniyos” is false.
Just as it is false that there exists an opinion that potatoes are kitniyos. There is no such opinion, no rov has ever forbidden potatoes, and anyone who claims otherwise should cite a primary source. Secondary sources do not count. And if you cite the Nishmas Odom you automatically lose, because it will prove that you’re citing a secondary source and didn’t bother to look it up yourself.
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