Karpas – is any ha’adoma ok?

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Controversial Topics Karpas – is any ha’adoma ok?

Viewing 37 posts - 51 through 87 (of 87 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1704569

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Rebbetzin, every posek I’ve seen on the subject, except Reb Moshe, takes for granted that the gezera (or takana) was not on specific species but on the entire categories of seeds that grow in pods and pesudo-grains, and therefore peanuts are forbidden. The best proof is from mustard, which is forbidden only because it grows in pods. Corn was also unknown when the gezera was made, and yet not even Reb Moshe permitted it.

    #1704572

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Re: Tibulei bemashkeh, something that is never eaten with the hands does not require washing when it’s indeed not eaten with the hands. E.g. there is no need to wash for cereal with milk, since it’s always eaten with a spoon. But something that is usually eaten with the hands requires washing even if you happen to be eating it without them.

    This is why it’s a good idea to cultivate the habit of always eating pickles with a fork, even when you’ve already washed for bread or for some other wet thing. That way when you eat them outside a meal, with a fork, you don’t have to wash for them.

    #1704779

    Since most people eat common vegetables for their area for Karpas there is no reason to remind someone about a shechiyanu. Or you may have it in mind with the shehechiyanu of kiddush ( as one does on the new fruit or clothes the second night of Rosh Hashana)

    #1704785

    So l’maaseh, using pickles for Karpas – good idea or no?
    If yes, do we need to dunk or just pull out of jar? (Pre-dunked)
    Can you dunk the entire potato with fork (to avoid getting fingers in salt water bowl) and then cut up and eat by hand? And boiled potatoes are very bland – why not use French fries? ??

    #1704955

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    1. we use baked potatos.
    2. I find it interesting that you didn’t quote Reb Moshe Feinstein Tzatzal (I”M OC 64) who states “shehleolom mevarech Shehhakol ahl shumim ubtzalim bein chaim bein mevushalim lvad metigun btzalim bshemen oh bchemah mevarech B”PH.

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14673&st=&pgnum=138

    #1704969

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Milhouse:
    That’s interesting about Sanz; I was not aware of that.
    It’s not entirely true that all say shehakol on raw potatoes. The Mishnah Berurah says no brochah is made on them sense they aren’t really eaten like that if I recall correctly.

    I believe there is a shittah independent of the Sanz minhag you mentioned that karpas should have to be naturally occurring adamah, not something that has to be cooked into it. I’ll try to track down a source if I can.

    Regarding onions, isn’t the Minhag haGra and minhag Lubavitch to use onions for karpas?

    #1705033

    lacisrmma – “we use baked potatoes”

    wouldn’t it be better to use a RAW vegetable like a carrot or celery (or radish)?! That is closer to “karpas” (a salad vegetable)?! A cooked food seems odd!

    #1705051

    Re: raw onions…shulchan aruch states raw fish is not to be eaten. but that hasn’t stopped anyone from eating it in sushi.

    Point is, brachos depend on the place and time. In places that raw onions WERE eaten, then it is haadoma. If it is eaten with bread or in a salad, even if a tofel in THAT situation, it is still a food that is eaten raw – according to many poskim. Rw fish – we eat and ignore the sakana mentioned in Shulchan Oruch…just as we ignore the halacha of a proper chazoras haShatz in mincha (not a heicha kedusha) or the poskim (like CHofetz Chaim) that forbids shaving.

    We pick and choose how we hold on various halochos, but we scream and howl at everyone who picks and chooses differently than our choices (like eating cake before davening or not sleeping in a sukka)! That is the Jewish way. I am right – you are wrong.

    #1705185

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Neville, yes, Lubav uses raw onions. The reason is not recorded, but remember where Lubav come from, and not much green was available at Pesach time. I was told that the reason to use onion rather than potato is to ensure that one will not eat a kezayis, but I have not seen this in writing.

    (Consider also the northern European practice of using horseradish for maror, and subsequently the mistaken belief that it is “tamcho” which is one of the 5 kinds of maror. In northern Europe none of the 5 kinds were available, so they substituted what they had, and over time developed the belief that it was one of the kinds. But everyone agrees that where lettuce is available it should be used.)

    #1705439

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There is a story that the Chayeh Adam wanted to asser potatoes for kitniyas so the people said you want to take away the chayeh adam.

    #1705473

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    but it鈥檚 silly to

    If only that was the standard for some posts in the CR. 馃榾

    The Wolf

    #1705615

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    reb. Bottom line there are poskim with broad shoulders staing the same issue and coming to different conclusions. i am not sure our eating of uncooked onions in salads and the like changes the brocha from shehhakol according to Reb Moshe and the Mishna Berura.

    #1705618

    silly for whom?

    Pickled watermelon is common in some cultures and areas of world (google it for recipes).

    #1705827

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Laskern, there is indeed such a story, but it’s not true.

    #1705923

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    They say that potatoes were not available at the time of the Geonim, so the gezara was not on it even though we make flour from it.

    #1706250

    Milhouse
    Participant

    “They” can say all kinds of things but it doesn’t make them true. Corn was not available at the time of the geonim either (not that the geonim had anything to do with this gezera, which was completely unknown where they lived, but it was also not available in 12th-century France, where it seems this gezera originated) and yet everyone agrees it is forbidden.

    And don’t be so sure that making flour has anything to do with the reason for the gezera. Some achronim suggested it as a possible reason, but who says they were right?

    #1717277

    Yossef’s coat was made of “karpas and techeles” (Rashi, Breshis 37:3) and that coat was dipped (in blood). What is the connection between the karpas dipped in salt water and Yossef’s coat (also “karpas) dipped in blood?

    #1717341

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    讻专驻住 – 讗讜转讬讜转 驻专讱 住

    #1717370

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Tosfas in Shabbos indicates that 驻专讱 in 讗转 讘砖 is 讜讙’诇 refering to 诇’讟 诪诇讗讻讜转 for shabbos that they worked in mitzraim that was considered work and therefore forbidden to do on shabbos.

    #1717394

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Milhouse, about kitniyas look at the Mordechai 588 转拽驻’讞.

    #1717446

    Does any sefer mention that karpas is also mentioned in Yossef’s coat??? (see Rashi, Breshis 37:3)

    #1717408

    讻专驻住 鈥 讗讜转讬讜转 驻专讱 住
    Laskern,

    It鈥檚 住 驻专讱 and my Rosh Hayeshiva rabbi Zweig says it鈥檚 backwards because the 驻专讱 was men doing women work and women doing men work

    #1717472

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Rashi does not say that the coat was made from carpas just where we find the word pas which means
    讻专讬诐 砖诇 驻住讬诐 cushions of linen.

    #1717477

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Chasam Sofer says that using horseradish for maror has a basis of 转诪讻讗 – 转诪讬讚 诪住驻专讬诐 讻讘讜讚 讗-诇.

    #1717580

    Karpas is also connected to Achashverosh’s party…讞讜专 讻专驻住 讜转讻诇转 讗讞讜讝 讘讞讘诇讬 讘讜抓 讜讗专讙诪谉
    How is it connected to the seder kaarah????

    #1717584

    讻专驻住 鈥 讗讜转讬讜转 驻专讱 住, the source is Rokaach, That there enslaved 60 (x10,000 = 600,000 of the Bnei Yisroel). The obvious question is that there were 600,000 that left Mitzrayim (1) males,(2) only between 20 -60, yet in mitzrayim, they also enslaved the children (drowned them) and the older people and the women.

    #1717609

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The kaarah has things that reflect our greatness and lowliness. See the Malbim the kashye of the mah nishtano is the history in a nutshell. The Rav Abarbanel says that the question is why do we do contradictory things?

    #1718845

    Are you simply posting random divrei Torah on the Hagada?! What is the shaychus?! Doesn’t matter. Kol hamarbeh l’saper, come with a collection of pirushim and drush, remozim and sod/nister concepts.

    #1718847

    Milhouse, there is an opinion that coffee (made from coffee beans) is kitniyos. I assume (but did not see) that chocolate would have the same ch’shash, as it comes from cocao beans.

    #1718880

    Milhouse
    Participant

    There is no such opinion. Both coffee and chocolate grow on trees, and therefore by definition cannot be kitniyos.

    #1718881

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Laskern, Mordechai on which mesechta? Pesochim?

    #1718897

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Milhouse, obviously Pesochim

    #1718951

    Milhouse – “There is no such opinion.”

    Sharei Teshuva (Orach Chaim 453:1) cites one opinion that because coffee beans resemble other beans, one should refrain from drinking coffee on Pesach.

    #1719043

    Gales
    Participant

    I know of a Rosh Yeshiva (no longer with us in this world) who wanted to mekayem 2 criteria when doing Karpas.
    1. Dip a borei pri haadamah in a liquis that requires netilas yadayim.
    2. Dipping should bw done derech cheirus to show that we are bnei melachim.
    His choice was to dip strawberries in champagne.

    #1719100

    Gales, that so called RY missed the remez of salt water for tears of yidden. Not everything at seder is for cheirus, morror charoses, yachatz etc remind of avdus.

    #1719222

    Milhouse
    Participant

    RG, the Shaarei Teshuva does not cite any opinion that coffee is kitniyos. On the contrary, he says it definitely is not, and the great person who was cited as refraining from it did so because he worried that ignorant people would think it was kitniyos, and if they saw him using it they would think kitniyos are permitted.

    #1719224

    Milhouse
    Participant

    In other words, your claim that “there is an opinion that coffee (made from coffee beans) is kitniyos” is false.

    Just as it is false that there exists an opinion that potatoes are kitniyos. There is no such opinion, no rov has ever forbidden potatoes, and anyone who claims otherwise should cite a primary source. Secondary sources do not count. And if you cite the Nishmas Odom you automatically lose, because it will prove that you’re citing a secondary source and didn’t bother to look it up yourself.

Viewing 37 posts - 51 through 87 (of 87 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.