Kesuba vs Kollel

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  • #2096088
    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    In one’s Kesuba one vows: va’ana eflach v’okir v’eizun va’afarnes…. Where is the heter to have mommy and daddy pay for you to be in a Kollel?

    #2096168
    ujm
    Participant

    Abba and Imma WANT to pay. Who are you to deny them the zchus of Limud HaTorah, by demanding they cannot pay for Limud HaTorah, even through they want to?

    #2096175
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    If you owe someone money, can they not be mochel? The kesuva is a shibud, if a wife wants to be supported, that is her right, but there is indeed a machlokes rishonim if ana eflach means working one’s own fields to provide, or to have to look for a job. It’s hard to say it means the latter, say some rishonim, because we don’t find anywhere else a chiyuv mamon that requires more than glima de’al kaspai. A husband would definitely have these shitos as a “kim li” in a beis din.

    #2096177
    couldbe
    Participant

    See Tosfos to Kesubos 63a d”h Be’omer where he discusses whether one is obligated to take a job to support his wife.

    #2096180
    jsocher
    Participant

    Abba and Imma is not a question you don’t give a kesuba to your parents.
    The question is how can society pressure/expect/cajole young women to waive their rights in the kesuba and instead support their husbands.

    #2096187
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Yabia,

    On that thought, the wife is not allowed to benefit from anything the husband did not earn on his own.

    #2096193
    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Want or not, these thousands of men are in dereliction of duty. They are not standing by their Kesuba obligation.

    #2096197
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Yabia,

    If the wife is provided for, he is not derelict of anything. Even if he violently stole the money from his in-laws.

    #2096201
    ujm
    Participant

    N0m: On the same token, a wife isn’t allowed to spend her husband’s money (which, Halachicly, includes the money she earns) without her husband’s explicit permission. Otherwise, he has the right to reclaim any money she spent from whoever she paid it to.

    #2096213
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Ujm,

    I have no idea. It’s Yabia’s token. And it’s worthless.

    #2096223
    Chaylev Halyah
    Participant

    Alot of ppl focus on the husband not following halacha – but few focus on the wife (if supported) not being allowed to spend ANYTHING on her own EVEN IF SHE EARNED it, without his permission.
    Nowadays, when many women CAN work – THEY WANT to! so that they can spend their money as they please

    #2096237
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Chaylev,

    That is not accurate. Even if she brings in and earns a negative total, she is still entitled to her purchasing preferences.

    Under normal circumstances, there is no difference how much she or he earns. It’s all the same setup. I guess chazal did not prioritize making money over martial happiness.

    #2096250
    ujm
    Participant

    Chazal didn’t make Halacha; Hashem did. Chazal explained it.

    #2096264
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Chazal constructed the kesubah. That much is a gemara. And wherever halachah fell in from.

    #2096267
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    See Yabia Omer YD (7,17) discussing the Rambam and Tashbatz about sitting and learning. Maybe it means if one has to work but if one receives parnasa otherwise and the wife is maskim, he is exempt because she is machel.

    #2096268
    Berish
    Participant

    HOW MANY PEOPLE NOT IN KOLLEL STILL HAVE MOMMY AND DADDY STUFFING THEM WITH GELT??? WE BREATHE IN THE ZCHUS OF THEIR TORAH!

    #2096290
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    How do you know what the words in the Kesuba mean?

    (How do you know how to pronounce them?!?)

    #2096294
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Reb Eliezer,

    That is not the question here at all. The OP’s statement implies that if the husband gets financial help, the wife cannot use any of that money. By extension, if he gets a mortgage for their house from the bank she would not add able to live there. Perhaps if he wins the lottery, he cannot spend it on her. Because if their parents support him, then he will not be fulfilling providing for his wife. So obviously, parental support is only intended for the husband. And the wife is not allowed any benefit from it.

    #2096314
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Rambam in Hilchas Talmud Torah says that the support he lives on is theft and he is ashaming the Torah.

    #2096323
    user176
    Participant

    If there is no “food” on the table a husband is responsible to quit kollel and make it happen. A son should not choose to join Kollel with and leave his parents no choice but to support him. It should be a discussion. If there is food into the table I don’t see the issue.

    #2096339
    ujm
    Participant

    Do you know any American Jews who lack food? I mean anyone; working people, Kollel people, retirees, seniors, children, men, women, etc.

    #2096338
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    @reb eliezer
    And the Rambam in Shmita v’Yovelos says that he’s kodesh kedoshim and it’s the greatest thing in the world.

    There’s a lot of reid to resolve the 2 statements of the Rambam.
    But besides for pshat in Rambam, we also have other rishonim.
    As the beis Yosef already points out, the accepted halacha is not like the simple pshat in Rambam hilchos Talmud Torah

    #2096342

    “Do you know any American Jews who lack food?”

    Yes

    #2096344
    ujm
    Participant

    Syag, have you helped them apply for SNAP, so that they can get food?

    #2096346
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    It’s not just food. Also clothing etc. As well as a residence befitting her standards.

    #2096360
    ujm
    Participant

    N0m: which her? And what if she has very expensive standards?

    #2096362

    The husband can tell his wife to feed herself צא מעשה ידיך במזונותך so why can’t she agree to support him

    #2096363
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Reb E – i guess the chazon ish lived on stolen money and disgraced the Torah… ch”v – editor’s note

    If there’s anything disgraceful, it’s telling bnei torah not to learn because of a ket’a from a rambam which no one paskens like, and about which the radvaz says that torah would have been forgotten if we had.

    Also, the rambam was not against being supported by an individual. He himself was supported by his brother. The same would go for fathers in law, or wives. No one, not one rishon ever questioned yissachar/zevulun. To lump it all together is just sinas batorah and those who learn it.

    #2096377
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    No. It’s a fine idea. And not an exemption from Jewish society.

    #2096378
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Ujm,

    Which her? The wife, who else.

    If she has expensive standards, that’s kesubah. What decides that standards, I don’t know.

    #2096390

    I don’t think it’s expensive standards, I think it’s “what she is accustomed to”. And that is not so hard to determine. I know that that is the rule with providing tzedaka to someone who was wealthy and lost their money.

    #2096391

    “Syag, have you helped them apply for SNAP, so that they can get food?”

    If it is relevant, yes

    #2096506
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The messenger should not be ridiculed and killed. I just quoted it and gave the place of discussion. I personally believe that before anyone is accepted in Kollel should be tested to evaluate his potential.

    #2096596
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Reb Eliezer,

    Every guy in kollel has the potential. They have been in yeshiva for ten years.

    #2096595
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    No contradiction of the Rambam. הבטלה מביא לידי שמום, idleness brings to aveiros. When they did not work in shemita and yovel, time must be spent in learning as the leviim did.

    #2096635
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    You have it backwards, but that’s okay.

    #2096668
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I want to see Gedolei Haroah, which we are lacking, come out and not quetching on a few pages as pointed out by Rav Shimon Fuerst available at hebrewbooks dot org entitled תנו כבוד לתורה. Look at the hakdama of the ספר מנחת חן חלק ב, from Rav Noach Eisick Oelbaum Shlita, who I learned together with at Yeshiva Chasan Sofer, where he complains about this. When learning a gemora, learn the poskim and halochos on it right away and learn a mesachta from beginning to end as we did in Wiener, Mesifta Nachlas Yaakov in Williamsburg. I once had to know in camp 10 blatt with the lashon by heart together with the shakla vetarye, the give and take.

    #2096691
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    n0messorah, can you explain as I don’t know what you are talking about?

    #2096698
    Shmili_OOngar
    Participant

    @RebEliezer- “tested to evaluate his potential” ?? That’s possibly the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever seen in the coffee room. You’re telling me that somebody should only learn in kollel if they have the potential to become a gadol!? It’s a chiyuv on every yid to learn- vhigisa bo yomam valaila”. It doesn’t matter if you don’t think you will become a gadol, you are still chayuv to learn as much as you can. Learning is not a haichi timtza to become a gadol- learning in itself is the goal. Take a look at the hakdama to the Ktzos and the Beis Halevi. What you are saying is borderline kefira.

    #2096715
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Shmili,

    What’s a gadol have to do with the context?

    I’m kofer in the borderline. It simply does not exist.

    #2096732
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    It happens to be a machlokes between Rashbi and Acherim. When everyone learns who will do the work? People have to learn לשם שמים so מלאכתן נעשית ×¢’י אחרים. Who are the acherim if everyone learns?See Rambam Hilchas Talmud Torah (3,10) and the referenced Yabia Omer. I would have liked to sit and learn but I did not have chance. It does not say to learn in the Kollel. You work and learn when you have time. The halacha is that if a mitzva must be done and there is no one else to do it, we are mevatel talmud torah to do it and then go back to learning, otherwise no mitzvos would be done. We currently, with the Kollel, don’t have תורתן אומנתן.

    #2096735
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Learning in a Kollel is a haicha timtzo to become a gadol not learning.

    #2096737
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Reb Eliezer,

    The first Rambam you quoted speaks strongly against those who decide to immerse himself in Torah and not to work. The second Rambam is that anyone who removes himself from the mundane sphere to serve and worship Hashem, is kodesh kadashim.

    The first passage may seem like studying instead of working is idleness. But the second passage is clear that only serving Hashem is less idleness than working. As in, he doesn’t even tend his own fields due to his extreme involvement in Hashem’s service. You picked up from the second Rambam that learning is to avoid idleness. When it is actually saying that it drops all mundane activities, so as not to interfere with Divine Worship.

    I have no idea why you were so attacked for merely quoting a Rambam. But the Rambam was himself attacked for it, so there is a mesorah on this topic. I don’t see how one could think that such a strong worded Rambam can be walked back. The discussion should be, whom is the object of the Rambam’s ire?

    #2096739
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    And then see EVERYONE ELSE on the rambam who argues and says that you can and should be supported to learn. Rav moshe feinstein writes that it’s GAAVAH to think that one can,in our time, follow the rambam and be successful in learning to be a talmid chacham.

    If someone has to work – myself included – fine! It’s a mitzvah too. But it’s not as big as learning and chas veshalom to deride those who are the ligyon shel melech, as the rambam calls them, who sit and learn the whole day, every day, for as long as they can.

    #2096748
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Learn what?

    #2096746
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I still don’t see the contradiction. The Leviim sanctified themselves to learn Torah so they did not work but others learned not to be idle on shemitah and yovel otherwise they were required to work.

    #2096768
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Reb Eliezer,

    I don’t see any contradiction, either. But I think your should read the second Rambam again. The last two in hilchos shemittah vyovel.

    #2096887
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    n0mesorah, I thought what I said is the connection to shemita and yovel but the Rambam creates another connection to the leviim by which is creating a contradiction. So how do we resolve it, maybe he is sitting in Kollel to sanctify himself and getting support?

    #2096893
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I think what I said before resolves the contradiction. If he has the kishronos, he can sanctify himself and rely on support otherwise it is theft.

    #2096904

    Little Frogie > How do you know what the words in the Kesuba mean?

    lots of great posts here. I presume Yabia went to cheder and then continues learning at night after coming from work (if not WFH) and helping his wife put the kids to sleep, like all erliche yidden. What is strange here?

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