Kesuba vs Kollel

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  • #2096905

    RebE > Rambam in Hilchas Talmud Torah says that the support he lives on is theft and he is ashaming the Torah.

    This was brought before. CR consensus is that we don’t pasken like Rambam, and – in this case – all the great people are meikel by definition. If you are so super-frum and follow this Rambam, I am with you.

    #2096915

    Shmili > It’s a chiyuv on every yid to learn

    I agree that one should learn even he does not get much (I guess, I have a personal bias here!), but the question here is can he do it at someone else’s expense.

    #2096918

    Obviously, it is OK for a person to go to learn and for his wife to support that. Starting from R Akiva …

    I think Yabia is asking what is the social background here. If a girl is pressured into the arrangement in some way, or if she later changes her mind but is reluctant to speak out – does the husband have sensitivity to notice or the kollel a way to find out. Otherwise, this is similar to why we do not accept gamblers as eidim – because they “steal” as their opponents do not have full mind in accepting possible loss. Similarly, someone using pressure system to keep the wife “agreeing” may be guilty of theft from her.

    Also, anyone claiming that wife can be satisfied by illicit funds, whether taken from in-laws, unreported income, or inappropriately obtained SNAP is really adding to the abuse of the lady – she does not have to be forced to be part of such aveiros (if they happen)

    #2096911

    n0 > The first passage may seem like studying instead of working is idleness.

    I don’t understand this as “idleness”, but as not being proper to charge for it. Does Rambam paskens somewhere that a rich person can not sit and learn!? In fact, he himself learned while he was supported by his brother, and went “into professions” when he had to.

    #2096921
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Boy you just can’t let this go. You must really love money or just be soo hung up on these thriving kollelites. Try sticking your nose in someone else’s faux life for a bit. If nothing else than to break the addiction

    #2096925

    Syag > You must really love money or just be soo hung up on these thriving kollelites

    I oresume this is for me. You are right – I am really concerned for the honor of Torah. I have no ill will to those who thrive in kollel. As they say, “my best friends went to kollel” and I learned a lot from my local Roshei kollel and some of the youngelites.

    #2096928
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Nice try but…nah. obsessing over Koller people stealing per your interpretation and questioning their theivery over and over isnt demonstrating honor of torah, just racist ideology.

    #2096933
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Syag, take it easy. This is comparatively tame for him. Maybe we’ll get a dialogue this time.

    #2096934
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Always,

    I entertained the idea that it could be read into the first Rambam that learning and not working is a level of idleness, only to demolish that idea from the second Rambam.

    #2096936
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Before we discuss halachah or psak, let’s first get the Rambam straight. He really lays into the one who wants to learn without working. Why? His addition as a source from the Mishna in Avos not to make a crown out of the Torah, is both interesting and telling. One would assume that that Mishna refers to one who is not learned pretending as he is learned. So there seems to be two major chiddusim in the Mishna. At least according to the Rambam. 1. The unlearned are not penalized for pretending to be glorified learners. 2. The learners are penalized for crowning themselves to be real learners. This seems unbelievable. But it is only the first impression. We could destruct this premise, but then we would have to reassemble a lot of the puzzle. So to reiterate, what bothers the Rambam so much about this person?

    #2096938
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    And to preempt, if it was about the debatable inaccuracy in his food stamps application form, the Rambam should lead with that and then say, and even if he learns non-stop so his poor wife who could not be honest and decide for herself what is good (Am I getting it right? had to fill out the papers, he still has no portion in the world to come, because unlike people who have careers he jacks the proper approach to the saintly government programs that find the ultimate favor in God’s eyes? (Please yell at me if I missed any of the cardinal sins.)

    #2096939

    Syag,
    it is not just my interpretation. It is a minority opinion, but with Rambam, RebE, and a majority opinion in Bavli on “my side” v. Rashbi and a lot of modern poskim, we should give both sides some respectful hearing.

    #2096940
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Similarly, if the problem is that he got home after dinner and bedtime, the Rambam should lead the paragraph appropriately. And then add, that even a full time learner that does not discuss the latest news at the table or go to movies with his wife, loses his portion in the world to come because he was simply not spending enough time being worldly with the people closest to him.

    So it must be something else. What does the Rambam say this person is doing so wrong?

    #2096960

    n0, apologize, it is late tonight for me to go into the Rambam (even as the Rambam advises that best learning is at night, but who pasken like Rambam !?) – but my understanding was that Rambam thinks it is a disgrace for the Torah scholar to rely on charity, that is making other people to work instead of him. Obviously, this means that he himself thinks that his learning is more important than learning or any other mitzvos by other people, and he also causes other people to begrudge him and belittle Torah scholars.

    I understand Brisker Rav brings these 2 Rambams, and concludes that 1st Rambam is for “general audience” and the 2nd for “yehidim” like Rashbi (and, presumably, Briskers).

    Interestingly, Mishna Berurah takes an _opposite_ approach saying that we are too weak to work and learn, so if given just one choice, we should learn. chofetz Chaim himself was selling needles first and his seforim later on. I am not sure whether he has a position on using government funds, I don’t think Russian or Polish governments paid for Radin yeshiva.

    Also, to paraphrase Mishna Berurah, as he conjectures that Rambam “at his times” would agree to learning for money, I am thinking that Mishna Berurah would agree “in our times” to work for a day a week and then learn for the rest while living modestly.

    #2096963
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Always,

    I doubt any correlation between Rashbi and Rambam. The Rambam is not saying how one should conduct himself. It is a critique of a certain approach to Torah study. Which approach? Definitely not Rashbi. Because he was also against taking from others.

    #2096965
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Always,

    Your opining that the Rambam finds fault with him valuing his learning over the learning of others. Then it would follow if no-one else is learning or involved in mitzvos than it would be commended. That does not appear to be correct. The Rambam should lead with taking charity when one is able to feed himself. And it should be in hilchos matnas aniyim. The Rambam clearly leads with one who plans to immerse himself in the study of Torah. This is perplexing. It seems like he got the whole approach wrong from the beginning. Not the result of him learning of someone else’s back.

    #2096967
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    I’m not in line with the Brisker Rav or the Mishna Berurah.

    The first Rambam is specifically about learning Torah. The second Rambam is about anyone who drops the mundane for serving Hashem.

    The whole ‘in our times’ apologetics only speaks to one who is trying to pull things in line. As in how can one learn all day and be doing the right thing. Even according to the Rambam It seems to be possible. It still remains to wonder what was out of line for the Rambam. And was nothing out of line for the luminaries that we mentioned.

    #2097452
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    I personally like the approach that I heard from Rav Zev Leff shlita.
    He says that the difference is why you’re doing it.

    A person could say: “I need parnasa. How should I make money? Instead of becoming a plumber or a lawyer etc., I’ll sit in kollel.”

    This person is disgracing the Torah. He’s using it like a tool in order to support himself (like the mishnayos from avos that Rambam quotes).

    The other person has a desire to serve Hashem and involve himself in avodas hakodesh- be it full time learning, kirub, teaching or any other tzarchei tzibbur.
    But he says, “if I take a job to support myself, I won’t be able to dedicate myself fully and properly to avodas hashem! I have no choice but to take money for my avoda.”

    This person is kodesh kedoshim and it’s a mitzvah to support him.

    Rav Leff adds, how do you know which category you got in?
    If you are in a situation where your needs are met and you are asked to serve Hashem. His example was a rav who gets an adequate salary from his kehilla, and is asked to give a drosha some where where they can’t afford to pay him.
    If you wouldn’t go without getting paid, then you’re using the Torah as a tool and you’re mechalel shem shomayim.
    If you would go anyway just to teach Torah, that’s assign that you’re kodesh kedoshim.

    #2097543
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    That’s a nice view. But it’s not the Rambam’s view. Both of those people would/could be out of a portion in the world to come.

    #2097585
    amom
    Participant

    I love the way people that don’t learn in kollel have a passion of dissecting money matters of those in Kollel 🙂 They have all the proof in the world why they should stop learning and go to work.
    I can’t quote much gemara- but I remember learning that a man is supposed to use every free minute to learn. If he works, he should work just enough to make the money he needs, and then he should stop working and go learn.
    Let’s have a discussion on that

    #2097650
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    @n0mesorah I’m not sure to whom you were responding when c you said “it’s not the rambam’s view.”
    If it was to my bringing rav Leff’s pshat in the rambam, then I do think it’s the rambam’s view.
    That’s why in hilchos Talmud Torah he brings the mishna in avos describing a person who’s using the Torah for one’s personal gain. The person is using learning Torah as a means of supporting himself.
    In shmita v’yovelos he says that anybody who wants to dedicate himself to Hashem like the Leviim did can do so (it’s clear he’s not just talking about every 7th year but all the time).
    This person is kodesh kedoshim and it’s a mitzvah to support him.
    The rambam is comparing this person to the Leviim, who are dedicated servants of Hashem who are supported by the tzibbur, and he’s saying that anybody who also wants to be dedicated to Hashem can be in the same category.

    Rav Leff’s pshat fits very well: if your goal is to dedicate yourself to Hashem, and being supported by others is a necessary means, then it’s totally fine.

    If the goal is to support yourself, and learning Torah is the means, ten then it’s completely forbidden.

    What problem do you have with this pshat?

    #2097653
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    Btw it should be mentioned: a person could change wile in kollel.
    It’s possible for someone to start out in kollel with aspirations of serving Hashem, and it’s totally fine.
    Then, years down the line, he doesn’t has such a passion anymore,but decided to stay in kollel as a means of supporting himself (either he doesn’t have another parnasa option, or he’s too embarrassed to leave kollel and work in a supermarket etc.)

    At this stage, when he’s mainly in kollel as a means of support, it would be problematic

    #2097666
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Why does the Mishna and Rambam use consider deciding to toil in Torah and not work as a “crown to glorify oneself with”?

    #2097667
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Why does the Mishna and Rambam use consider deciding to toil in Torah and not work as a “crown to glorify oneself with”?

    #2097970

    maybe this will help: Rambam may be looking at the same issue from different criteria. For example, in one place recommends to sleep 8 hours and wake up at sunrise, and in another – that real learning happens during night. This works together only during winter at most latitudes. So, one advise is for those who want to be healthy, another – those who want to be learned and you can’t always achieve both.

    So, in this case, if you are optimizing learning than listen to hilchos of learning. The other one may be according to R Leff.

    #2097974

    amom,
    I understand your question and an excellent suggestion.
    To answer your question – everyone cares about Learning and people in kollel are our nation’s front line. A similar situation is that a machlokes about one building in Yerushalaim gets more interest in the world than a big war in Africa. So, you should be proud that people care about your family activities, whether supporting or criticizing or giving you suggestions. I don’t think you would prefer an alternative when nobody cares. As a 19th century author writes: if the Czar understood the value of learning, he would put a soldier near every Jew. [not for protection, but] if a Jew gets distracted, the solider will kick him with the bayonet.

    As to work & learn, I think you are right. It seems that working professionally one day a week should be enough for humble living, leaving 5 days a week to learn. Do we know anyone like that. I am told that some Persians used to do that – they’ll travel to remote areas for several weeks, buy exotic things there, come back, sell them abroad, and then learn the rest of the year.

    #2098017

    By looking at the whole sefer, seems like Rambam objects to taking money for learning or teaching (Oral Torah) to keep learning pure and not use it as a source of income. Seems like he objects to direct payment for learning, not generic “tzedoka”, but Rema in YD 246:21 says – someone who is not working and supporting himself from tzedoka, so in his minds , tzedoka is same as paying. Rema further gives 2 famous kulos – first for the Rav of the city, so that people would not look down at him, and some even further – to accept willing donations for learning (this would not include Israeli taxes that are not volunteered). He then goes back to say that despite the accepted kulos, those who are able to work and learn, it is midat hasidut and present from Hashem to be able to earn an honest living and learn.

    Maybe the reason Rambam does not mention tzedoka option but only payment for Torah, because he addresses it in metanot aniim, saying that everyone should try working, even as Talmid Chacham or a Kohen. He also says that it is asur to get non-Jewish welfare in public before using Jewish sources.

    Overall, judging by multitudes of later sources that say this Rambam is difficult to hold by, there is a definite license to not fully follow this for those below midat hasidut. Some of Rambam’s warnings can be observed in practice in each generation to see how much one can contradict Rambam’s advice – is the Torah becoming bizayon in the eyes of multitudes? does this lead students becoming listim or doing other avonos?

    this may depend on the particular community, not just esim – do simple folks see your community as takers or respect your learning? does your community force others to support or donors line up at the door?

    #2098019

    I am somewhat confused by the discussion of contradictions with Hilchot Shmita. This says that every person with a _giving_ ruach should be like Shevet Levi, dedicating himself to the education of Jewish people, and gives a brocha that such a man will be zoche to get what is sufficient for him like to Leviim and Kohanim. In the previous paragraph, he says Leviim did not have land, just towns, no mention of them living of payments. Note that “ruach nedava” may be opposite of taking, as expounded by R Dessler in “giving and taking” essay

    #2098023

    Gefilte: Then, years down the line, he doesn’t has such a passion anymore, but decided to stay in kollel as a means of supporting himself

    I wonder whether it is time to use modern means to follow up on these questions – surveys, assessments, third party certification, “ratemykollel”. In olden times, learners or poor who reqyire help would be directly observed by benefactors. Rambam says that we feed a visiting poor person in an emergency, but otherwise check out first whether he is a trickster. In modern times, there are so many opportunities to misuse funds, people should not be put in the “lifnei ever” position. For example, giving some funds and hoping they will learn ..

    As Gemora says, the best way to spend a sudden inheritance is to buy thin glass (that will break), silk clothes (that will rip) and not supervise the workers. As Torah is our nahala, and learning is avodah, the same should apply. Or, to quote a non-Jewish tzadik talking to a non-Jewish Rushah: “trust but verify”.

    #2100774
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Always,

    Kollel is not the modern day front lines. Leaving your family most of the day to go teach Torah somewhere is. As well as moving out to be a rabbi in middle of nowhere.

    #2100776
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Gefilte,

    The problem with Rav Leff’s pshat is that then the Rambam in Shemita is discussing his ideal. But what is he in practice? If it’s the same reality with a different ideal, how can one be ‘holy of holies’ and the other an embarrassment to religion?

    #2100777
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Always,

    Modern means or telepathic ones. Who cares? It’s not a question of how to separate who is really shteiging from who is just sitting. People know the difference. The issue is what do you say to someone who is just sitting and not learning?

    This requires a real and intelligent response.

    #2100800
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “The issue is what do you say to someone who is just sitting and not learning?

    GET A JOB!!!

    #2100810
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    That’s too bad. I would probably ask them if everything is okay with them

    #2100814
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Gadol,

    How would a job fill whatever their lacking?

    #2100815
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    And what if nobody wants to hire them?

    #2100816

    n0 > how can one be ‘holy of holies’ and the other an embarrassment to religion?

    Maybe you are mis-reading the Shmita Rambam through your own reading (“Yaakov wearing hat from yete m’BeerSheva). He is saying that the ideal T’Ch should follow derech Levi, being a giving teacher… Did Leviim only sang and taought? They had their cities where they probaqbly grew cucumbers and radishes for themselves … yes, they collected maaser, but I am not sure Rambam includes that in his ideal. Maybe you see more in close reading or commentaries

    #2100817

    > what do you say to someone who is just sitting and not learning?

    you don’t need to say anything to him, except a polite hello. At some point, he’ll get hungry and will have to get up.

    #2100836
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Always,

    What if he has enough to eat? What if he is worth double the net value of the average person with a PhD?

    #2100913

    n0, so he fulfils his ketuba, what is your issue with him?… Is he depressed? Maybe you should not try to put him into a (learning) institution, but find something that will excite him to learn?

    #2100962
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Rambam says that the Tenaim and Amaraim had an occupation like Rav Yachonon Hasandler, a shoe maker.

    #2100961
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Always,

    It’s a much deeper issue than that.

    #2101013
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Always_Ask_Questions,

    “I think Yabia is asking what is the social background here.”

    I think if that was what he was asking, he would have written it.

    “If a girl is pressured into the arrangement in some way, or if she later changes her mind but is reluctant to speak out – does the husband have sensitivity to notice or the kollel a way to find out.”

    It’s interesting to me how those who see women making a different life decision from the one they prefer conclude that those women must be victims of their circumstances, pressured into a horrible life. A husband and the wife are both grown adults, as are the parents/in-laws who may or may not be supporting the couple. They can decide what works for their family, they are more than capable of discussing their changing needs and situations, and it is not our business to peer into their windows and attack the foundations of their homes. I also find it interesting that the CR is not full of angry kollel wives bemoaning their fates. The agita is coming almost exclusively from those not in kollel.

    “Also, anyone claiming that wife can be satisfied by illicit funds, whether taken from in-laws, unreported income, or inappropriately obtained SNAP is really adding to the abuse of the lady – she does not have to be forced to be part of such aveiros (if they happen)”

    A few questions – who on here other than you is making such a claim? And how is in-law support illicit that you lump it in with these other examples?

    #2101016
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Always_Ask_Questions,

    “it is not just my interpretation. It is a minority opinion, but with Rambam, RebE, and a majority opinion in Bavli on “my side” v. Rashbi and a lot of modern poskim, we should give both sides some respectful hearing. “

    Can you really name any modern posek who advocates that we go by the Rashbi’s derech in learning? And are you sure that you are really on the “side” of, say R’ Yishmael and Rava? Nissan and Tishrei to plant and harvest with the other 10 months sitting and learning is a far cry from the 8-10 hour workday + commuting regimen that working today entails for many.

    #2101208

    Avram > . I also find it interesting that the CR is not full of angry kollel wives bemoaning their fates.

    A fair point. I saw a number of people of all genders working in chinuch who are burnt out with the lifestyle. As a shocking illustration, one complained to me that her husband did not want to move the kid to another school for several years because they both worked in the current school and it was “free”. But you are right, a lot of kollel wives are nashim chayil and do not complain here (although they have their own site).

    And I am not at all claiming that something is majority or typical. I am asking – whether we have mechanisms to prevent abuses, however rare they might be. Gemora brings examples of women upset by away husband, so it is not unthinkable.

    I out in-laws on the list of possibly non-kosher funding for the reason that if the in-laws are not doing it fully out of their free will, there is avak geneiva here.

    Suggestion of working less is accepted, Avira already mentioned that. My understanding that majority of Bavliim would come to the yeshiva for 2 months and go work the rest of the year while reviewing the masechet on their own.

    #2101516
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Always_Ask_Questions,

    “I saw a number of people of all genders working in chinuch who are burnt out with the lifestyle.”

    “Working” in chinuch is not the same thing as full time learning in kollel – they are working and getting paid for working! Burnout is not exclusive to klei kodesh.

    “As a shocking illustration, one complained to me that her husband did not want to move the kid to another school for several years because they both worked in the current school and it was “free”.”

    Why is that shocking? Or specifically a “kollel” or more broadly a klei kodesh issue?

    “But you are right, a lot of kollel wives are nashim chayil and do not complain here (although they have their own site).”

    If you’re referencing the site I think you are, it’s an even more troll-infested place than here.

    “And I am not at all claiming that something is majority or typical. I am asking – whether we have mechanisms to prevent abuses, however rare they might be.”

    Do we have mechanisms to prevent workaholic husbands who never see their kids? Or latchkey kids who are home alone for hours after school? Why does klei kodesh need some sort of special mechanism that other adult-run families do not? These are general domestic issues that apply to all families whether the husband learns in kollel, teaches in a yeshiva, or is a high powered lawyer. And the mechanism is good, open, and loving communication between husband and wife, and parents and children.

    “I out in-laws on the list of possibly non-kosher funding for the reason that if the in-laws are not doing it fully out of their free will, there is avak geneiva here.”

    How are they not doing it of their own free will? Blackmail? Threats of bodily harm? Support us in kollel for 10 years or Bruno will make you swim with the fishies?

    “My understanding that majority of Bavliim would come to the yeshiva for 2 months and go work the rest of the year while reviewing the masechet on their own.”

    I think that’s flipped?

    #2101683

    > Burnout is not exclusive to klei kodesh.

    I may be too sensitive here. When someone is burnt out by being a merchant or a doctor, he can still work to provide parnosa to the family and, hopefully, does quality job selling or x-raying. If he is failing, there are systems in place – competition, management that will push him out. When you are learning or teaching (and I lumped in teaching as it is _sometimes_ a consequence of learning and not having other job prospects) – you are failing in Torah or in raising young neshomos. do we have modern mechanisms of quality control here? tests? transparency?

    > Why is that shocking?
    That a learnt couple of teachers can not get their own kid out of bad situation… other people are not in the position where they are tied to a school job (evek avdut?). The context was that the lady thanked me for taking my kid out – turns out that helped her to convince her husband to do the same (and she previously was a great teacher for my kids, btw)

    > Do we have mechanisms to prevent workaholic husbands
    yes, it is called a wife. A workaholic has a chance to work less. Someone without an occupation and with peer pressure has harder time to change his ways.

    > How are they not doing it of their own free will?
    They may have signed up out of free will, or out of community pressure. They may think it is time to change, but expectations are set and alternatives are scarce. Good tzedoka collectors are sensitive to the customers and try not to pressure people beyond what they really want to give … works well in a long term.

    #2101684

    >> MAJORITY OF BAVLIIM WOULD COME TO THE YESHIVA FOR 2 MONTHS

    Kallah was in Adar and Elul. See, for example,
    Brochos 17, Rav Ashi on Mata Measiya, see Rashi & tosfos
    Bava Metzia 86 about Rabba, see Rashi

    #2101863
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Always_Ask_Questions,

    “When someone is burnt out by being a merchant or a doctor, he can still work to provide parnosa to the family and, hopefully, does quality job selling or x-raying.”

    Why would a teacher be any different than this?

    “If he is failing, there are systems in place – competition, management that will push him out.”

    Why is teaching any different? Parents and the school’s menahel can notice issues and take corrective actions.

    “When you are learning or teaching (and I lumped in teaching as it is _sometimes_ a consequence of learning and not having other job prospects)”

    Why do you devalue learning and teaching? Do you not think it is a worthwhile or important?

    “That a learnt couple of teachers can not get their own kid out of bad situation… other people are not in the position where they are tied to a school job (evek avdut?).”

    So if we were talking about a family struggling with the idea of taking their kids out of public school to put them into a frum school (very real issue on the “fringes” of the frum velt), would you not describe it as a problem with the family’s priorities? Yet wrt the teacher family struggling with the idea of taking their kids out of a poor situation to pay higher tuitions and put them into a better frum school, you frame it as a systematic issue with Torah learners instead of an issue with this specific family’s priorities? This does not seem to be fair or reasonable.

    “yes, it is called a wife.”

    Do kollel men or Torah teachers not have wives?

    “Someone without an occupation and with peer pressure has harder time to change his ways.”

    This is a cop-out. A mature adult realizes that it is his relationship with Hashem, his life, and his family that he needs to concern himself with. It’s not Torah’s fault if someone hits 40 and has never outgrown a high school mentality.

    “They may have signed up out of free will, or out of community pressure. They may think it is time to change, but expectations are set and alternatives are scarce.”

    See my previous comment.

    #2101991
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “When someone is burnt out by being a merchant or a doctor, he can still work to provide parnosa to the family and, hopefully, does quality job selling or x-raying.”

    Another troll post.
    Oh sure, a burnt out doctor can just xray. No issue that it’s a different field and only 40k a year. I mean, they’re both in the same building so it would work. Surely it wouldn’t be as awful as burning out from Kollel.
    And hey, the burnt out marketing guy can for sure get a cashier job somewhere. That’s a super market not a regular market but it’s kinda the same, no? Cuz at least he is paying his own way, not like those shady kollel syphoners.

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