Kiddish/Chillul Hashem

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  • #2040995
    theshadchansays
    Participant

    my dad is a famous kiruv rabbi and he trained us well! my 10 yr old brother and sixteen yr old brother were traveling to isreal. the lady on line behind them thought they were cute and asked if they were brothers. my ten yr old brother, in return, asked if she was jewish. she nodded but was clearly uncumftorble and said ” yeah but i dont like labeling”. My brother smiled sweetly and replied,” yeah, neither do i”. the lady said,” no, my question is different. i want to know if your FAMILY”. my sweet, greened eyed brother looked at her and said. “Yes, and i want to know if YOUR family

    #2041049
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    @theshadchansays, great response!

    AAQ, I agree with what 100%. This approach will settle all the stories of Chazal and the present. Obviously, we aren’t supposed to be behind others in moral issues, even when they are newly adopted and developed ideas.

    The Chofetz Chaim suggests this in his Kuntres on shaving.

    #2041103
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Halevi, it depends on which morals. We have no reason to portray to the world that we are tolerant of toevah, that we believe in inclusion diversity and equity, or that we believe people can change genders on a whim. We also need not avoid behavior that xan be seen as antagonistic to the climate change movement – there’s nothing wrong with having a gas guzzling SUV if one has it for practical purposes, etc…

    Chillul Hashem/kiddush Hashem is regarding Torah’s values, not self imposed made up malarkey.

    #2041129
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Avira, it is impossible for me to include every possible nuance and caveat to everything I say. And it’s usually unnecessary.

    #2041143
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    I’m only saying so because you said that KH and CH”H apply to newly adopted and developed ideas; i disagree with that statement, as KH and CH”H should only apply to Torah values

    #2041326
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Yes, it applies to holding a door open, returning things, honoring freedom, being against racism, and according to the Chafetz Chaim growing a beard.

    #2041382
    ujm
    Participant

    What is “honoring freedom”? And being against racism isn’t a Torah value; in fact, au contraire.

    #2041403
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Holding a door open is a problem because you’re not supposed to walk behind a woman. There are other derech eretz alternatives; I really don’t understand your example from the chofetz chaim – having a beard always was a Jewish value. Not the highest on the list, but it’s something chazal talk about – hadras ponim zaken. It’s not a new invention.

    Racism etc…i agree with ujm; i do agree though that hating a particular race would be contrary to torah values and calling attention to that is fine

    #2041404

    Avira and ujm raise an interesting question: where is the boundary between behaving morally in the nonjewish world and accepting what we should not. Even haleivi’s simple list is questionable: not just freedom and racism, but even opening a door for a woman so that she would walk in front…

    Rather than arguing about boundaries, I would rather make a list of unquestionable items and train yourself in those, like returning items (I have to concede finally a place where walking in a bekesha helps to create a kiddush Hashem), paying on time, following traffic rules, paying taxes, keeping one’s word, etc

    #2041405

    I am concerned about possible hypocrisy when someone is careful NOT to return a lost item to H’sh not to strengthen a rasha or an idol worshipper, which is a worthy consideration, but really a minute effect for most list items. Are you equally concerned about list 10 minutes for learning, a bad word you said to your spouse, time you didn’t spend with your kid – each of these having a larger effect on the world than that lost item

    #2041437
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Who’s talking about walking in front or behind? You guys excel in monkey wrenches.

    #2041438
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Racism etc…i agree with ujm; i do agree though that hating a particular race would be contrary to torah values and calling attention to that is fine

    I guess you have your own definition of racism

    I really don’t understand your example from the chofetz chaim – having a beard always was a Jewish value.

    Not hard to find. It’s a footnote in the beginning of his pamphlet on Hadras Panim. He referring to not cutting it at all.

    #2041517
    ujm
    Participant

    HaLeiVi, why is it/isn’t it a Kiddish Hashem for a woman to hold open a door for a man?

    #2041523
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    HaLeiVi, why is it/isn’t it a Kiddish Hashem for a woman to hold open a door for a man?

    Who does that impress? Who will say בריך אלקהון דיהודאי because of that?

    This male-worship really got to you, did it not. Now you’re going to equate your קדושת הזכר to Kiddush Hashem?

    #2041569
    ujm
    Participant

    “Who does that impress? Who will say בריך אלקהון דיהודאי because of that?”

    If becoming a vegetarian, to avoid killing animals, impresses Goyim who then say בריך אלקהון דיהודאי, you think that’s a Kiddish Hashem?

    #2041627
    Goldilocks
    Participant

    AviraDeArah: If a man is walking toward a door and notices a woman following behind him who is pushing a baby stroller or has her hands full, is it halachically problematic for him to hold the door open for her?
    I’m not trying to be cynical here; I’m honestly curious to hear your thoughts on this.
    As far as kiddush Hashem is concerned, any behavior on one’s part that reflects the fact that one is a servant of Hashem automatically constitutes as kiddush Hashem.
    The opposite type of behavior constitutes the opposite of a kiddush Hashem.

    #2041669
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    If becoming a vegetarian, to avoid killing animals, impresses Goyim who then say בריך אלקהון דיהודאי, you think that’s a Kiddish Hashem?

    To the Red Herring Chief: If you cannot differentiate between ideals that we clearly do not hold by and sensitivities that formed over time, there is no use discussing this further. אם אין הבדלה…

    #2042184

    > a woman following behind him who is pushing a baby stroller or has her hands full,

    there is also a risk that the woman will say – I can perfectly do it myself – and slam the door in my face!

    the safe method for both concerns is to go thru the door and then hold it behind oneself. It is less courteous but decreases the risks.

    #2042207
    ujm
    Participant

    “If you cannot differentiate between ideals that we clearly do not hold by and sensitivities that formed over time”

    It is just as clear that we (i.e. Yidden) do not hold by that a man should hold a door open for a woman moreso than a woman should hold open a door for a man, as it is clear that we do not hold by vegetarianism.

    You cannot makeup for yourself what “ideals that we clearly do not hold” and what “we” do. There’s nothing to differentiate vegetarianism from the other so-called “ideal” that you imagine.

    #2042253
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    It is just as clear that we (i.e. Yidden) do not hold by that a man should hold a door open for a woman moreso than a woman should hold open a door for a man, as it is clear that we do not hold by vegetarianism.

    Notice that I did not mention this weirdness about man for a women. It is normal decency to hold the door for someone not far behind you, and not let it slam shut as soon as they arrive.

    You must be so steeped in goyish culture that this is what came to mind when I mention holding a door. Or so obsessed with doing the opposite, which amounts to being steeped in it.

    ____

    You cannot makeup for yourself what “ideals that we clearly do not hold” and what “we” do.

    True. At a certain point you’ll need to judge what is a sensibility that wasn’t around or stressed, and what is contrary to the Torah’s priorities. Formula cannot supersede wisdom.

    Like Reb Shimon ben Shetach said, מַה אַתּוֹן סָֽבְּרִין שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן שֶׁטַח בַּרְבְּרוֹן הֲוָה.

    When Chazal say that we could have learned proper behavior from animals, would we have roared and barked at people? No. We would use our minds to judge.

    Just because a sensibility for a certain behavior, or Middah, didn’t exist in the past, that does not make it wrong. It the past it was not expected to return a list item, and so neither did we — unless there was a Mitzva — but today that is called being a normal person. To keep it is cheap and selfish, in the eyes of decent society.

    If you need a formula, let this be it: We cannot expect less from ourself than what we expect from others.

    #2042222
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Goldi, a man can (and should… this is what I’ve done personally) hold the door open for someone who’s having difficulty, man or woman. However if it’s a woman, you should wait a few moments before going in so as not to walk behind her. Walking behind a woman is a concern for hirhur; chazal say better to walk behind a lion than a woman

    #2042302

    HaLeivi > Just because a sensibility for a certain behavior, or Middah, didn’t exist in the past, that does not make it wrong.

    totally agree. All behaviors towards people are conditioned on their sensitivities and expectations. A yeshivish example I heard is a comparison on how to react to a bochur erroneously suddenly saying “no tachanun today”. In old Poland: Gabbai clears the space near the bimah and embarrassingly invites “the new Rosh Yeshiva” to take the place. In more modern times, R Ouerbach whispers the gabbai “skip tachanun”.

    I don’t see why the same approach is not applicable to relationships to non-Jews. Truly, we need to be realistic that we can rely on good relationships. They can always sour quickly and often did in history. Same as peace in Europe suddenly ended in 1914 after several decades and lead to a half- century of destruction. But this should not prevent us from being fair and grateful and good citizens.

    #2042295
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “chazal say better to walk behind a lion than a woman ”

    Are you aware of how odd it is to insert a comment like this?

    #2042328
    ujm
    Participant

    HaLeiVi, now you’re singing a different time, one I agree with you on. No one implied or suggested, that I know of, that anyone not hold the door open for everyone/anyone and, rather, let the door “slam shut” (as you described it) in the next person’s face. Of course hold the door for everyone. The issue only is when one makes gender-based distinctions on whether to hold the door or on which gender should hold it for the other.

    We can be honest, the door holding discussions invariably revolve around the issue of gender. Whether it is being discussed in the context of shidduch dates or more generally. Rarely is it being discussed in the sense that everyone should be holding the door open for anyone in front or in back of them, regardless of their and the other party’s gender.

    If you failed to see that fact then you’ve been running around with your eyes and ears closed.

    Syag, why would you find an insertion of a Chazal into the conversation as “odd”?

    #2042398
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Syag; I don’t see why it’s odd. it’s the source for the halacha that is under discussion

    #2042414
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I can only assume that GadolHadorah joins me in not being surprised at the response or that ujm jumped in with it first.

    #2042425
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    UJM, I haven’t joined any shiduch conversations here.

    Holding a door (for a person down the block) has become a behavior of decency in this society. It wasn’t always. I don’t need anyone holding it for me, I can usually open it myself. In our own culture it was never a big deal, since we hardly focused on formal stuff.

    And so, per original Jewish outlook there was no need to behave that way. Now there is, and by doing so and not being a barbarian (בַּרְבְּרוֹן) it is a Kidush Hashem.

    #2042531

    > Whether it is being discussed in the context of shidduch dates or more generally.

    I am thinking that we are always trying to find what exactly we should not do and not be like “them” to avoid assimilation or just to feel superior. At the same time, we are neglecting that we should be decent human being, and hopefully more decent than others. Some may not feel like helping a grandma (grandfa for men) cross the road makes them special, but I don’t think Hashem values a mitzva less because it is a neglected one. Maybe more.

    #2042551
    ujm
    Participant

    AAQ, there’s no need to try to feel superior. We are superior.

    HaLeiVi, if you are making no gender distinctions then we are in agreement.

    #2042554
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    AAQ, We have a special obligation to pursue a meis mitzva, a mitzva neglected.

    #2042625

    RebE, a good example. To extrapolate, when there is nobody else to do a mitzva, you should try to compensate.
    three is a more explicit one:
    Pirkei Avot 2:5. In a place where there are no men, strive to be a man
    Berakhot 63a bar Kappara taught: If the price of the merchandise has declined, jump and purchase from it; and where there is no man, there be a man; where there is no one to fill a particular role, accept that role upon yourself.

    #2042626
    KGN
    Participant

    Saying the Shema in public is the literal sanctification of Hashem in public. This should fit ALL the criteria of a “Kiddush Hashem”.

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