Kiddish/Chillul Hashem

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Kiddish/Chillul Hashem

  • This topic has 131 replies, 19 voices, and was last updated 5 months ago by KGN.
Viewing 50 posts - 51 through 100 (of 132 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #2039287
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    I’m not a fan of pleasure trips either; I think they’re a luxury that only frustrates and gives a false impression of relaxation.

    But what does that have to do with the value of such a traveller’s davening obligations??

    #2039471
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Look up my posts above and review references therein of multiple gedolim pointing various nekudos what can be inappropriate

    That’s exactly what I’m talking about! You brought that in this discussion where it doesn’t belong.

    #2039472
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If you do want to bring Covid into the picture

    I was actually teasing you because you do that all the time even where there’s no shaychus.

    #2039475
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    but you seem to be more interested in a hypothetical crazt flight attendant rather than in typical cases.

    I’m just responding to the hypothetical case Avram mentioned.

    You decided she’s a rasha or deranged. Maybe she’s just in a bad mood and/or thinks it’s rude that he won’t respond? It’s just a hypothetical story anyhow.

    Yet still you can’t/won’t answer.

    #2039480
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Always_Ask_Questions,

    “I am saying that if there is a trace of inappropriate behavior in the man, that he is doing some aveira, however slight. Even if he is in a window seat.

    If you are suggesting a Zeresh character … “

    You condemn the Jew and absolve the Gentile to the point where it must be the Jew’s fault unless the Gentile in the example is literally akin to one of the most evil people in history or deranged. This is Olympic level contortion. We are commanded to dan Jews lkaf zechus.

    “Look up my posts above and review references therein of multiple gedolim pointing various nekudos what can be inappropriate”

    Yeah, and my example preemptively fulfilled all of them yet you still cannot bring yourself to side with the Jew.

    “but you seem to be more interested in a hypothetical crazt flight attendant rather than in typical cases.”

    The case I described is fairly similar to an actual incident that happened a number of years ago involving a frum teenager. I have also personally encountered strong reactions to my tefillin from non-Jews when I’ve donned them outside of shul or home.

    “Again, this presumes I understood the halakha properly that it is ok/desirable to sit down.”

    Again, the man in my example was davening in his seat, which presumes sitting. How can you judge correctly if you cannot even ingest the basic facts of the case? Your prejudice against Jews is astonishing given that you seem to be Jewish and know a lot about Judaism.

    “That is why I brought those quotes.”

    They were irrelevant.

    #2039516
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    You don’t think it’s a kiddush Hashem to do a mitzvah?

    Why would it be? Is it Shiluach Haken to light Chanukah lights?

    #2039724

    Avram, I am not “against the Jews”, I am simply trying to extract a lesson for us from this to grow rather than getting warm satisfaction from how good we all are against a hostile world. This is a great Jewish tradition that seems to be lost in last American generations. And again, taking your description at face value, I am not even sure why he is being arrested – he is not doing anything, he is simply not replying. I don’t think this is illegal.

    As to people reacting to tefilin, whenever I had to daven shaharis before an early flight, I either did it in the car at the airport or spent several minutes looking for an empty corner, so never encountered strong reaction. I once encountered a strong reaction on a flight from LA (Louisiana, not Los Angeles) to Texas. An exciting lady came and said – Excuuuuse me, are you JEEEEWISH!?! (staring carefully at my kippah to see whether I have horns), are you flying to Israel!? (despite the westerly flight)

    PS. I personally do not recalling witnessing a case of such anti-Jewish attack in USA, not saying they do not happen. I saw them either in other countries or here by people from other countries. For example, my PhD advisor made a shiduch for me to a big German company for a small project. We met Dec 23 without much chemistry and they called me December 26 asking “how was your holiday” with some stress in these words. I replied “as usual”, the project did not go forward and the (middle eastern, liberal) professor could not figure out why.

    #2039725

    DY > because you do that all the time

    I know I am overdoing it. I just found this whole sad story very revealing in gashmiyus and ruchniyus. To quote a market Chacham said: “when the water goes away, you see who is swimming naked”. Similarly, my Rav advises to listen to children: parents learned how to say things in a way people will accept, but the children will tell you what parents really think. So, Covid created a totally “novel” environment and we can’t simply copy previous behaviors. I focus here mostly on negative examples, but, in truth, there are lot of positive ones, people doing the right things, helping others, restraining themselves from doing things. Relevant to this thread – good cases are often invisible, but no less “kiddush Hashem”. You find out sometimes by chance. I once called an old gentleman who did not come for a yom tov, he said that one of his relatives got Covid and thus, he did not come not to risk exposing others. Now, when I see someone who is exposing others to risk, I know that, but how many people abstained – we don’t know.

    #2039913
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why would it be? Is it Shiluach Haken to light Chanukah lights?

    Doing a mitzvah, particularly in public, and particularly when it’s not comfortable, brings glory to Hashem’s name.

    Sending away a mother bird does not ignite a menorah.

    #2039994
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Always_Ask_Questions,

    “I am not “against the Jews”, I am simply trying to extract a lesson for us from this to grow”

    And I am simply trying to extract a lesson about dan l’kaf zechus and regarding your fellow Jews with basic respect. How can you declaim any of the lessons you think the Jewish people need to learn from you when you can’t even get the facts of the case straight?

    “rather than getting warm satisfaction from how good we all are against a hostile world”

    I haven’t written or read anything self-congratulatory in this thread. The discussion is what constitutes a kiddush Hashem, specifically whether the simple public performance of a mitzvah is a kiddush Hashem even if bystanders are bothered by it. Some posters are insistent on finding faults surrounding the mitzvah observance to show it is really a chillul Hashem and the basic question went unanswered, so I tried to clarify the question by presenting a case where those faults were absent. Like an undergrad physics student working Newton’s Laws on a uniform frictionless plane. This seemingly blew such a fuse in your mind that it took several posts to get you to stop inserting imaginary faults onto the Jew in the example, and even then you couldn’t accept the example as stated and give a straight answer to the question I asked. Well, I guess you begrudgingly did in the end after declaring that the flight attendant must be evil or deranged and that the example was not plausible anyway.

    “And again, taking your description at face value, I am not even sure why he is being arrested – he is not doing anything, he is simply not replying. I don’t think this is illegal.”

    Fine, say rather he was removed from the flight, questioned, and then released without charges. That better matches the real-world case I based my example on.

    “As to people reacting to tefilin, whenever I had to daven shaharis before an early flight, I either did it in the car at the airport or spent several minutes looking for an empty corner, so never encountered strong reaction.”

    And if someone saw you “acting suspiciously” in the parking garage or a quiet corner of the terminal, reported it, and a security brouhaha ensued, would you declare that being secretive about praying was an aveira and you should’ve done it more publicly so as to not look suspicious?

    #2040051

    > would you declare that being secretive about praying was an aveira

    Logically speaking, yes. First time this would be a shogeg, but if I continue, it would be mazid. Actually, some tiime after 9/11, I encountered suspicious views in the plane when I opened a sefer. I did not feel like explaining difference between Arabic and Hebrew. I switched to books with more English or math symbols.

    #2040052

    Avram > And I am simply trying to extract a lesson about dan l’kaf zechus and regarding your fellow Jews with basic respect.

    Ok, I think we both made the point and understood each other. Apologize to the readers for this long thread. For full disclosure, when I was listening to the frictionless plane classes, I would also interrupt asking about every possible real life artifacts. And what is more important in practice? All planes deal well with obvious gravity. Better ones are dealing better with friction and other smaller factors.

    #2040113
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    What would be if in that fictional case if a frei yid saw what was happening and said to himself “someone is willing to get thrown off a plane for his beliefs…”

    Is that a kiddush Hashem or Chillul Hashem

    #2040120
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “I did not feel like explaining difference between Arabic and Hebrew. I switched to books with more English or math symbols.”

    You closed a sefer to appease the gentiles and you don’t see that as a major failure in your outlook/observance?

    #2040129

    l’halakha, interrupting prayer would be midrabonan, so a miduraita issue would override it. For example, a concern for flight attendant’s mental health, if she is worried about strange behavior. Of course, if she is a pure anti-semite, then the situation is opposite. And if the davening is medauraita maybe halakha will be different (plane is not doing well or the davener is claustrophobic)

    Also, if you daven well, you should expect most people to respect or even be in owe. I am told that one of the first Chasidishe Rebbeim from midwest visited Uman at the sunset of USSR, before Uman became Mardi Gra. His taxi was stopped by a Ukrainian policeman who started radioing to figure out what to do with the strange man. Rav opened a Gemorah not to waste time. The policeman got frightened by the view and told him to leave immediately.

    #2040133

    > You closed a sefer to appease the gentiles

    Nobody approached me, but people were suspicious of Muslim terrorists. If someone were to ask, I would explain, but they were not asking. I would guess that was the moment even for a true Chacham (from the joke about the bus) to change his turban for a black hat.

    #2040134
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Are you talking to me? Are you seriously trying to tell me that you had to close the sefer because it was midioraisa to do so due to the flight attendants mental health? Are you for real?

    #2040139
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    AAQ, please, I beg of you, stop making your twisted halachic proclamations.

    They are painful to read.

    #2040136

    Syag > You closed a sefer

    PS I don’t think I closed the sefer. That would not have helped, maybe even made it worse. I would usually take a small Gemora volume (just one blatt of Aramaic is sufficient to put me into philosophical mode and then into sleep, so Brochos worked for many years), so I packed either an English sefer or a math one for next trips. Both sefer or math are not really hukas goyim in USA.

    #2040147

    Syag, your question came before my next post, where I clarified that I did not close that sefer, I just did not read the same one next time. I would not notice who is looking at me until I finished the sugya!

    #2040155

    DY, what is twisted here? I am trying to apply halakhic concepts to the issue. If you disagree, say why. Or ask you Rav and tell us what he thinks. Just because the concept does not look usual to you, does not mean you dismiss it by that.

    Notice an interesting weaving of multiple concerns by r Schachter in his case: on a short flight, one should not bother anyone and daven sitting. on a long flight, you would need to stretch your legs (allowing to bother people), and you can then daven as well. I did not connect these things before, but after reading, I would not call it twisted, just “weaved together” 🙂

    #2040175
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Doing a mitzvah, particularly in public, and particularly when it’s not comfortable, brings glory to Hashem’s name.

    What is the difference whether it was in public or private, if it was not appreciated? Hashem sees what you do regardless. So do the angels. The benefit of the public is how it raises Hashem’s glory in their eyes.

    If it doesn’t, then obviously you gotta do what you gotta do, but there is no ברוך אלקי שמעון there.

    #2040183
    ujm
    Participant

    “The benefit of the public is how it raises Hashem’s glory in their eyes.

    If it doesn’t, then obviously you gotta do what you gotta do, but there is no ברוך אלקי שמעון there.”

    If you shecht an animal, do kaporas with a chicken, do metitza b’peh or even a simple bris mila or you exclude women from various religious leadership positions or you make a Brocha loud and clear, even in public, of shelo asani isha, you’re making a Kiddish Hashem because the public sees you’re doing what Hashem told you to do. Even if it is unpopular, in contemporary times, among some or even most gentiles and secularists.

    Avrohom Avinu made a Kiddish Hashem by the akeida even though popular opinion may have considered him to be an attempted murderer.

    Simply because in all of the above examples, and in many others, the person followed Hashem’s command and the public saw that. Even if the public opinion is opposed to following that command of Hashem.

    #2040188
    ujm
    Participant

    Rav Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg was asked if one should pray with a minyan on an airplane. He said yes, adding that he does it “all the time.” While strictly speaking it might be permitted to pray at your seat, Rav Scheinberg prefers that one pray with a minyan, but quietly in a way that doesn’t disturb others.

    Rav Shmuel Halevi Wosner said “it is preferable to daven in small groups” on an airplane.

    #2040245
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Always_Ask_Questions,

    “Logically speaking, yes. First time this would be a shogeg, but if I continue, it would be mazid.”

    What aveira would it be that was committed, and how can a Jew who is a baal hanefesh function in the world at all when the random reactions of strangers cannot be predicted and can cause him to become a shogeig?

    #2040278

    M, thanks for bringing other opinions. All seem to agree that we need to balance a mitzvah of davening with inconveniencing others, but disagree either on the extent or possibly the circumstances. R Sheinberg presumably travels on routes typical for having a lot of religious Jews, while other answers may relate to a typical goyishe environment. We need several of those rabbis to travel together for a total of ten and see if someone will dare not to join the minyan! I think this underscores the idea I stressed before that when being Adam lhavero is involved, solutions are not always the same. Luckily our days you can snap a picture, email it to your daas Torah and ask him how to daven in the current circumstances.

    #2040273
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Willing to die for the cause will sanctify His name. People will take note of your dedication. If they think lowly of a certain Mitzvah, then you do not have this benefit. In fact, there is no point of splashing currently unpopular ideas in their face. They will say the opposite of ברוך… This is why, throughout the generations, we’ve had many apologists giving contemporary reasons (or excuses) for Mitzvos.

    This whole idea — that simply doing any Mitzva openly, even when it’s despised, is a Kiddush Hashem — seems to be a reaction to the opposite idea, that we should be ashamed of Mitzvos deemed inappropriate by the outsiders. However, you shouldn’t allow yourself to redefine your own ideas in order to win over someone else.

    עם חכם ונבון is not about Muktzah (as of now), it’s about things that impress others, Chazal explain.

    Returning money, is not a Mitzvah (and can even be an Aveira), and yet it is the prime example of Kiddush Hashem.

    #2040272

    Daf yomi: one of possible reasons for maamadot not to fast on yom rishon is because of Christians … This seems ahistorical, but an interesting consideration anyway

    #2040291
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    AAQ – these conversations about the halachos have zero to do with this conversation. You have been repeating for months examples that you have loosely translated into being situations of pikuach nefesh just to grab a heter for it First you did it with non deadly covid situations, self paskening the pikuach nefesh even when it wasn’t thus excusing you from minyan, calling a suspicious flight attendant mentally ill so you could pretend it’s pikuach nefesh and thereby excuse you from learning. And when we pointed out this false self paskening you started inserting “maybe ask your rov and get back to us” even when there is no shaila (see above)

    We are not having a “disagreement” about the standards or definition of pikuach nefesh. You are simply making stuff up. Pikuach nefesh does not mean someone got sick, someone might get sick, someone is overstressed or someone didn’t check their airvents. Those are situations that you have referred to as pikuach nefesh but are nothing of the sort.

    If I decide that people mostly eat peanut butter in sandwhiches so it really should be labeled as containing wheat or containing gluten people would think i was in lala land. This is what you are doing with pikuach nefesh and the incorrect heterim you are putting out there.

    #2040302

    HaLeivi > This whole idea — that simply doing any Mitzva openly, even when it’s despised, is a Kiddush Hashem — seems to be a reaction to the opposite idea, that we should be ashamed of Mitzvos deemed inappropriate by the outsiders.

    I think you are right that we often stand by a point to separate ourselves from others. IT is often important to protect community in a short term, but, in a long term, distorts who we are. One example I saw quoted is emphasizing that Judaism is a religion of actions/mitzvos rather than stam belief (from lo lishma, etc) that we affirm in the face of neighbors who insist on being saved through faith. Similarly, emphasis on miraculous in the face of haskala rationalism.

    #2040329
    ujm
    Participant

    “Returning money, is not a Mitzvah (and can even be an Aveira), and yet it is the prime example of Kiddush Hashem.”

    What makes you think that returning money to a Baal Avoda Zora (i.e. a Christian) is a Kiddish Hashem, if returning it is halachicly forbidden (even if you actually need to return it)?

    #2040434
    Participant
    Participant

    i just read this whole thread beginning to end and must join the posters’ censor of AAQ. It is stunning, horrifying, disgusting, and many other adjectives how people admonish him to “just answer the question” and he answers a different question, many times over.

    As an aside someone mentioning getting it the stewardess’ way….it is high time someone [in the airline dept, who has some authority] teach the stewardesses that no one has EVER died because the stewardess didn’t bring a sprite fast enough, the meals won’t spoil if they have to wait a minute at the mid-plane bathrooms, and it would be a much more enjoyable flight if we had no flight attendants, even at the expense of no food. (Or worse yet, having to fetch your own drink from the galley.)

    Sorry for changing the subject, now carry on.

    #2040442
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Ujm, halacha is very clear that not returning a goy’s aveidah when failure to do so will result in a chilul Hashem is assur – we must do so to prevent a chilul Hashem. It’s considered a chilul Hashem because it looks like we don’t believe in being honest. We do, just the halacha allows us to keep their aveidos specifically. When a Jewish value is seemingly being violated, even if halachikally it isn’t, it’s a chilul Hashem.

    To make a kidush Hashem, it’s allowed to return the aveidah, but it’s not a chiyuv.

    #2040455

    > , halacha is very clear that not returning a goy’s aveidah when failure to do so will result in a chilul Hashem is assur

    Maaseh Rav, when he found a purse, he called the owner/neighbor and asked him to stop by the shul, specifically to enhance kiddush Hashem. when you consider a desire not to return, you may be looking at discussions related to Avdei Avodah Zara. This is not a given for an average American.

    #2040494
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    The distinction between ovdei avodah zara and stam goyim regarding taos akum, aveidas akum, etc, is found in a small minority of poskim. It’s not practical halacha.

    #2040511

    Avira, thanks, look like you are right. Rambam puts a reason of not giving money to people who prosecute Jews, but Rashi, SA and later stand by all non-Jews. So basic exemptions are exactly the thread title: avoiding Hillul Hashem (purse lost in a Jewish area, business loss that will be later attributed to you …), or, as mentioned creating Kiddush Hashem: put your biggest hat, write “Rabbi” on the envelope … R Lebovitz adds a hiluk of doing a normal action of returning to the “lost and found” that could be made in polite, not antisemitic society, and making a major effort, which can be done with accompanying Kiddush Hashem. He quotes Smag, R Aaron Soloveichik (that not pursuing moral behaviors may be the reason for current Golus) and Beer Hagolah who says that he knows many people who took advantage of non-Jewish mistakes and became rich but at the end did not have brocha, and many who did opposite and had brocha. So, this seems a complicated subject…

    #2040517
    Kuvult
    Participant

    People hate to hear it but its true. Dying Al Kiddush Hashem is only when a person had a choice like converting and choosing not to. Since during the Holocaust Jews were targeted for their race, contrary to what people always say, they were not killed Al Kiddush Hashem.

    #2040528
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Sorry kuvult but where did you get that from

    How do you know that dying because you’re a Jew isn’t dying Al kiddush Hashem

    #2040532
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    They did not know if conversion would have helped and therefore, they could have converted and were killed Al Kiddush Hashem.

    #2040595
    ujm
    Participant

    Kuvult: Being killed because one is Jewish, even if given no choice, is certainly dying al kiddish Hashem.

    #2040677
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The 10 martyrs certainly died al kiddush Hashem.

    #2040689
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Kuvult, if people hate it why would you say it?

    I’m sure you’re aware that this has been spoken about and dealt with. It isn’t black and white. We’ve seen many Gedolim and Rishonim refer to those killed for being Jews, as Kedoshim.

    Your statement about race is misleading and a misunderstanding. The Nazis were not worried about the long nose pool. They were worried about the Judaism gene.

    #2040691
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    ujm

    “What makes you think that returning money to a Baal Avoda Zora (i.e. a Christian) is a Kiddish Hashem, if returning it is halachically forbidden (even if you actually need to return it)?”

    Because its explicit in the Rambam that I cite you whenever this discussion comes up. Rambam Gezeila 11:3

    Kuvult

    “People hate to hear it but its true…”

    People hate to hear it because it isn’t true, it was made up oa few years ago by insecure people, in an effort to be provacative, so sure people hate it.

    No one during the holocaust had a choice (almost no one) we have all heard our Roshei Yeshiva, Rebbehs, and leaders refer to the “6 million kedoshim” (see Rav Schwab and the Bobover Rebbe’s Kinnos, listen to the compendium of Rabbonim that aired at the last siyum hashas (available on youtube “siyum hashas holocasut tribute” including R’ Gifter, the Bluzhover Rebbe, R’ Schwab, and Yibadel L’chaim R’ Matisyahu Salmon all reffering to them as “kedoshim”)

    #2040740

    > No one during the holocaust had a choice

    While true in general, there were often choices to be made, although often unclear ones … first, there were choices to try to emigrate before WW2 to Palestine or US. Another example I saw in a book – 2 brothers with families who ran away from German Poland to Soviet in 1939. They were then offered Soviet citizenship “or else”. The one who accepted, stayed there until German came and perished … The one who refused was soon arrested en masse, sent to GULAG, was then recalled by reconstituted Polish Army, was able to make it to Persia and from there to Palestine.

    #2040764
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    AAQ

    I don’t understand what your comment added.

    I was responding to Kuvult ” had a choice like converting and choosing not to.” I didn’t mean that no one during the Holocaust had any choice on anything.

    #2040753

    I listened to (just several minutes) “halakha” class from TorahAnywhere and it is similar in spirit to what Avira said – pointing differences between non-Jews and Jews, and briefly mentioning “kiddush Hashem” issues. I don’t know whether this is a representative class, but I hope those who learn this way understand that this is learning S’A, but not learning halakha l’Maase, without taking into account modern society and sensibilities in terms of Kiddush/Hillul Hashem and other subtleties of halakha.

    #2040968
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    HaLeiVi, the fact that someone is willing to sacrifice his comfort and do a mitzvah even when it seems bizarre and embarrassing, is a form of mesiras nefrsh and therefore a kiddush Hashem.

    #2040974

    Ubi: Rambam Gezeila 11:3

    Note also that Rambam refers to “reshaim olam”, so the issue seems to be not just avoda zara but maybe those who are hurting Jews or world in general? Not clear what would he say about Muslims.

    Also, note as Avira said that S’A is not fully following Rambam here, but modern poskim seem to stress that possibility of Hillul Hashem or a chance for Kiddush Hashem really cover a lot of cases.

    What is interesting in this case is that it is clearly not a mitzva of hiddur v. halakha – you can make a wrong decision both returning to an inappropriate person and not returning when appropriate.

    #2040975

    Can we resolve the issue towards non-Jews that we should follow their standards towards them? That is, you don’t need to go to the extent of halakhic obligation, but do at least what a normal non-Jew will do, maybe a little more – return to “lost & found”, pick up from the ground to a chair, don’t take it at all …

    For a benchmark, see a current story on YWN front page about someone in Indiana finding an old photo that flew 100 miles from Kentucky tornado, posting on FB and eventually finding the owner. However awesome it is, it is slighyl below the Jewish standard that would require spending another 10 minutes googling the name directly instead of relying on power of FB …

    Also, I personally benefited from non-Jews calling to deliver a lost purse (in NorthEast) and just not touching a purse on the window for several day (in the South).

    #2040973

    Ubi, apologize, took your words out of context

Viewing 50 posts - 51 through 100 (of 132 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.