Kiddush Hashem or Chillul Hashem?

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  • #600168

    What determines if something is a Kiddush Hashem or a Chillul Hashem? Does it depend on doing what goyim like? i.e. If something will cause goyim to think Jews are backwards and not up to date with the changes feminism or gay-rights has wrought upon society, then it is a CH even though we are doing what our Gedolim determined is best? Or does whether something is a KH or CH depend on whether it is the best action or gedorim based upon Torah, Halacha, and what our Rabbonim determine for us?

    #821459

    SaysMe
    Member

    Just a point to keep in mind: CH/KH applies to the impression we make to other Yidden as well, not just to goyim

    #821460

    shein
    Member

    It applies PRIMARILY to the impression we make towards other Yidden, not goyim.

    #821461

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Hello Newbie(?)

    Kiddush Hashem and L’Havdil Chillul Hashem is if we keep true to what the Torah says or not

    There is a Rashi (I can’t remember where) (I think by Parah Aduma) that says that the Satan and Goyim laugh at us and even still we do it

    #821462

    soliek
    Member

    a yid can never make a chilul hashem while doing the ratzon hashem.

    #821463

    QuestionForYou
    Participant

    Kiddush Hashem is sanctifying Hashem’s name and His Torah in public.

    Chillul Hashem C”V is desecrating Hashem’s name and His Torah in public.

    If something is forbidden by the Torah, it should not be done. Period.

    Whether or not Goyim will think that Jews are “backwards and not up-to-date” is irrelevant.

    #821464

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    shein: You said something COMPLETELY different on the B110 thread.

    And why do you think kiddush/chillul Hashem applies PRIMARILY to Jews?

    If it applies PRIMARILY to anyone, it should be the GOYIM – since they are de facto more apt to criticize our actions (and by extension Hashem), as they are not part of us. Plus, they are just apt to criticize us b’chlal.

    (Disclaimer: this is NOT coming to discount the importance of kiddush Hashem altz Yidden.)

    soleik: Valid, but you have to be careful about where your interpretation or ratzon Hashem comes from. You don’t want to end up like those fellows terrorizing Me’ah Shearim…

    #821465

    shein
    Member

    OneOfMany: It says it in the Seforim (don’t have the reference here) that it applies primarily to Yidden, not goyim. Doesn’t matter if the goyim “criticize” us. We still do what our Torah, Halacha, and Hashkafa demand of us. Even the goyim think it is backwards, ancient, and regressive. And a violation of feminism, egalitarianism, gay-rights, democratic ideals, capitalism and western values.

    #821466

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Is it Kiddush Hashem or Chilul Hashem if there is an abuser in the community and we dont turn them over to the authorities?

    #821467

    shein
    Member

    It depends what the halacha is about massering. If it is assur to masser, then it is a KH to not masser and a CH to masser. If it is a chiyuv to report, then it is a KH to report and CH to not report.

    #821468

    Sam2
    Participant

    The Gemara defines a Chilul Hashem as doing something Assur in front of Jews (I think 10 but it might be 3).

    #821469

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Shein: I never hold with “The Seforim.” They are too unpredictable.

    Let me clarify: when I said criticize, I was in no way referring to matters of halacha. Perhaps you are extrapolating erroneously from my comments on the B110 thread.

    Kiddush/chillul Hashem applies to ANYTHING we do that would that would degrade the Jewish (and by extension, Hashem’s) image – pushing past people on line, making a ruckus in the street, treating goyim as inferior, v’chulay.

    As an aside, I think most goyim don’t criticize us for our “backwardness.” Aderaba – nowadays, many I know wish THEY had some of our policies concerning T.V., kibbud av v’eim, dating, etc. But maybe I only know the decent ones.

    I don’t think any Jew ever did anything in violation of gay rights.

    #821470

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    zahavasdad: If the authorities found out that we were hiding one, that would be a a pretty big chillul Hashem. And enabling the abuser to commit such acts by concealing his crimes is probably not okay l’halacha.

    I’m not entirely sure the goyim would decry us for obeying the law and bringing a criminal to justice. And doing so would clearly state that Judaism does not condone or foster such behavior.

    #821471

    shein
    Member

    OOM: See Sam’s comment from the Gemorah, right above your comment to me. Your definition of KH/CH may be how you feel about it, but is not correct.

    #821472

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    shein: I would ask for a source for the Gemarah. Not that I doubt its veracity – I just think that it may be taken out of context. The Gemarah very often makes seemingly unilateral statements that are expounded upon by the meforshim.

    I personally am going with QuestionForYou’s definition.

    #821473

    shein
    Member

    QuestionForYou and Sam2’s definition are both correct and work hand-in-hand with each other, and are not contradictory at all.

    #821474

    Sam2
    Participant

    So I can’t find the Gemara I was thinking of but there are a few Gemaras at the end of Yoma that mention that doing things that make Jews or Rabbis look bad constitutes a Chilul Hashem.

    #821475

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    shein: Did I intimate that they contradict each other? Then I am sorry. They are DEFINITELY compatible, but QuestionForYou’s is a lot broader. Which is what we are trying to determine, no?

    And look: sam2 seems to have broadened his definition as well.

    #821476

    Health
    Participant

    This topic has been discussed and rehashed time and again.

    #821477

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Ein chadash tachas hashemes. But I like to butt in with my opinion, too.

    #821478

    BTGuy
    Participant

    I think the focal point of a Kiddus Hashem is what we are showing to the world, regardless of their values. Normally, normal people of all backgrounds respond well to our values when we demonstrate them and they are the recipients of our thoughtfulness.

    #821479

    mosheemes2
    Member

    About five years ago I stumbled on an on online discussion board for Continental Airlines flight attendants where a junior crew member had asked for opinions about whether she should start to work their Newark-Tel Aviv route. The opinions were mostly positive, (the gist was that most flight attendants on the route did it for years and loved it but some couldn’t handle it, which made it no different than any other route the airline flew to a destination with a non-American culture) but one of the flight attendants pointed out that a difficulty on the route was that so many passengers requested special meals, which meant effectively that during meal times you were doing your job more than twice since on top of the regular service you had to give individual meals to about half of the plane.

    These flight attendants are well aware of who orders those meals and why they’re being ordered and by choosing to fly this route, it seems pretty clear that they’re at least theoretically ok with Jews. A passenger on that plane who orders a kosher meal is certainly doing the ratzon Hashem. I have no doubt however that the way these people view Hashem and his Torah is significantly affected by whether or not their passengers behave while doing the ratzon Hashem.

    #821480

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    FIRST, you must determine and follow what the halacha expects of you, and do not compromise on it unless you are in danger. Compromising on it includes falsifying it – such as telling someone that something is or isn’t a Torah value, when in fact the opposite might be true, or the Torah doesn’t really talk about the issue.

    THEN, determine how you might go beyond what the halacha expects of you, in order to establish and maintain good relationships with people, and gain their respect. When you do this, once you are already trying to follow the first step, the world will say upon you – “Praiseworthy are the teacher and the parents who taught this one Torah!” This is a great kiddush Hashem.

    If you choose to take the second step but ignore the first, then you aren’t being mekadesh Hashem, you are being mekadesh yourself.

    Sam2 –

    See the Rambam’s Ma’amar Kiddush Hashem. He gives a lot (5?) of definitions, all of which are true.

    I never hold with “The Seforim.” They are too unpredictable.

    Lol

    #821481

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    yitayningwut: Excellently expressed. Sh’koach.

    #821482

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Is it Kiddush Hashem, Chillul Hashem or neither if a frum jew parks in the Disabled parking space because he is late to minyan and cant find a parking spot closer to make the Minyan?

    #821483

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I generally only ask if something is right or wrong, and don’t concern myself with chillul Hashem.

    Seems to me that kiddush Hashem is that we do the right thing because it is right.

    #821484

    sandrac
    Member

    Kiddush Hashem, since davening is a mitzvah and by doing so he was able to daven with a minyan whereas otherwise he would miss minyan. Plus there are so many empty unused handicapped parking spots that no one is using, that the 15 minutes he is in shul davening will cause no one to lose that spot.

    #821485

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    So is it right or wrong to park in the disabled parking space if you are late for minyan?

    #821486

    Personally, because of the fact that I have lived amongst goyim and been raised amongst them, until my infamous return of my Neshama to Torah,,,,,,(just my 2 cents but…)

    I think its a Chillul Hashem how nice we dress and carry on with conducting our lives with so much Gashmius. Lets face it we may have Olam Ha Ba but we have a lot LOT of Olam Ha Ze.

    I know for a fact that they are not happy for us, when they see a woman dressed super sophisticated, pushing an expensive baby in an expensive outfit in an expensive carriage. Wearing a $5,000 ring.

    Just my opinion, but I know that they believe our G-d would not want us to flaunt it, even if we have it, becuase that is the opposite of modesty.

    And they resent that.

    #821487

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    OneOfMany – Thanks! 🙂

    #821488

    Sam2
    Participant

    SandraC: Breaking the law is never a Kiddush Hashem unless the law is explicitly against Halacha.

    #821489

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    popa_bar_abba: But what if the WAY we do the right thing is not mekadesh Hashem? What if, for instance, someone did something with the correct motivations, but in a manner and setting that turned another Jew off of Yiddishkeit?

    Sam2: Very apropos to certain current events.

    #821490

    Is it Kiddush Hashem or Chilul Hashem if there is an abuser in the community and we dont turn them over to the authorities?

    Depends. If we take care of him by ourselves, and he never molests again, and has a chance to rehabilitate himself somehow, then it is a tremendous Kiddush Hashem. I don’t know if this is possible with molestors. Beating a molestor to a pulp and shipping him out of town minus certain organs is actually a Kiddush Hashem as well if a molestor really has din rodef, because it scares anyone else with the tayva into getting help or at least into getting out of the community.

    If he is just allowed to go on molesting then we know what that is.

    As for the parking spot: Far too many disabled placards are handed out to able-bodied people whose doctors agree to get them recognized as disabled on ridiculous technicalities related to minor chronic conditions. Because of the extra placards and plates, they started to set aside far too many spots for “disabled.”

    Kiddush Hashem – leaving a note on your car saying “Day and Time: I had to run into X for an emergency. I’ll be back in 15 mins. If you need this space call Y and I’ll come right over.” Anything else – grey area.

    #821491

    Is it a kiddush Hashem or a chilul Hashem when an ostensibly frum Jew who does not keep certain chumras or minhagim that others do tries to make it hard for those who do keep them to do so, because he feels that they make us look bad in front of the goyim?

    #821492

    shein
    Member

    Is it a kiddush Hashem or a chilul Hashem when an ostensibly frum Jew who does not keep certain chumras or minhagim that others do tries to make it hard for those who do keep them to do so, because he feels that they make us look bad in front of the goyim?

    A prototypical Chillul Hashem.

    #821493

    Yes, Shein, it sure is.

    #821498

    Sam2
    Participant

    600: If it is a Chumra with minimal (or no) Halachic backing then others have every right to stop people from doing it if it will cause them harm.

    #821499

    im sorry

    i dont want to close this thread but were not going to have another discussion of the Halachas of handshaking here.

    last time there was so much ignorance and misinformation about it that i wouldnt be surprised if some people actually were nichshal in this most serious aveira because of that thread.

    #821500

    Sam2
    Participant

    Well M80, you can’t blame that one on me. None of my posts in that thread got through. 🙂

    #821501

    Like the small but vocal left-wing’s fighting Torah-true Jews over what the left doesn’t consider valid by claiming they are keeping chumras in dina demalchusa dina and ben adam lechavero to justify themselves because they put Modern before Orthodox? That has to be stopped, but it will stop in a generation anyway when the loudmouths’ children make whatever choice they make between modern and Orthodox.

    #821503

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Interesting story about handshakes and kiddush/chillul Hashem:

    An interviewer once tried to shake my hand, and when I told him that I couldn’t, he was very curious as to why. So I explained. I got the job. And he told me that he picked me specifically because he was very impressed with me at my interview (and I mamish didn’t do anything else especially impressive).

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