Killing A Cat

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  • #604896
    bubka
    Participant

    If there is any halachic difference at all between purposefully killing a bug (that isn’t bothering anyone) than killing a cat, what is it?

    #983658
    Sam2
    Participant

    If the cat has an owner then you are being Mazik someone’s property.

    #983659
    bubka
    Participant

    Ah, so it’s a financial issue. But if it is a stray cat, there is no difference than a bug.

    Thank you

    #983660
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    If the cat has an owner then you are being Mazik someone’s property.

    The same could be said about a bug.

    You can ask the question of whether or not you can safely assume that a bug is ownerless, but if it does have one, you are certainly being Mazik someone’s property by killing it.

    The Wolf

    #983661
    Sam2
    Participant

    Wolf: That is absolutely correct.

    Bubka: It’s not only monetary. R’ Schachter always mentions that there’s an Issur to be Mazik someone else. Not just that if you do it you have to pay for it.

    #983662
    WIY
    Member

    bugs are nasty and annoying. They are pests. If the bug is in your house it is a nuisance and it doesnt belong there so theres no issue killing it. Now if you are outside and you see a bug and you maliciously kill it, well I dont know but that seems like tzar baalei chaim because there was no reason to kill it. Maybe if it is a bug that bites or stings you can get away with the fact that it may have hurt a person.

    #983663
    more
    Member

    it’s cruel.

    #983664
    more
    Member

    why destroy hashem’s creatures for no good reason.

    Rather give it to your local consle sfnhujdhg to decide what to do with it.

    #983665
    TheGoq
    Participant

    Please dont hurt the kitty. thank you.

    #983666
    Curiosity
    Participant

    For the last time, it was an accident!!!

    #983667
    uneeq
    Member

    After you finish killing your local cat, don’t mind swinging by Jerusalem and kill for us the filthy cats here. They are more common and annoying than bugs.

    #983668
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    What is the number of consle sfnhujdhg?

    #983669
    yitzyk
    Participant

    By the logic proposed by WIY, it might be okay to kill a cat if it bothers you. I am not paskening anything, just observing the logic.

    I think it is quite clear from many gemaras (once again I am not giving a psak,) that straight forward killing an animal is not “Tzar Baalei Chaim.” That is only for causing pain or prolonging a slow death.

    #983670
    Sam2
    Participant

    WIY: The Minchas Chinuch (I believe) points out that there is no Issur of Tza’ar Ba’alei Chayim when killing an animal (I presume that this has limits and it means that you kill in a humane way). He gets this from the Gemara of P’sik Reishei. He asks why it isn’t an issue of Tza’ar Ba’alei Chayim and answers that TB”C isn’t Shayach when you’re killing them, only if you’ll force them to live in pain.

    #983671
    yytz
    Participant

    We are forbidden to kill or to cause pain to any living creature unless it is necessary.

    As Ramak (R’ Moshe Cordovero) says in Tomer Devorah (ch. 3), one “should be a father to all the creatures of the Holy One, Blessed is He,” and one’s “mercy should extend to all creatures, neither destroying nor despising any of them. …In this way man’s pity should be extended to all the works of the Blessed One just as the Supernal Wisdom despises no created thing for they are all created from that source.” One “should despise no created thing, for they all were created in Wisdom. He should not uproot anything which grows, unless it is necessary, nor kill any living thing unless it is necessary.”

    #983672
    PBT
    Member

    I don’t know that it’s absolutely prohibited in a strict halachic sense, although there is a general prohibition on causing undue suffering to an animal. As with most questions of a halachic nature on this website, I think you need to talk to a posek and tell him the exact circunstances you’re thinking about.

    #983673
    aurora77
    Participant

    Hello uneeq,

    I felt very sad when I read your post. I have spent years trying to help homeless pets by working at shelters or taking them into my own home. I would respectfully ask you to consider, before you post something like you did above, that at least some posters here find value in the lives of these animals and consider them to be beautiful creatures of G-d’s. Thank you.

    #983674
    uneeq
    Member

    In Jerusalem, cats are another form of rodents (worse IMO). Finding a new home for them is as practical as finding one for homeless mosquitos. Forgive me for taking on the worlds opinion of getting rid of rodents.

    #983675
    yytz
    Participant

    “And God will give you mercy, and show mercy to you” (Deuteronomy 13:18). God will instill in you the trait of mercy and compassion; then He will “show mercy to you.” If one has mercy upon living creatures, Heaven will have mercy upon him (Shabbos 151b). However, if a person lacks mercy, there is no difference between him and a beast, which is not sensitive to the suffering of other creatures (Rabbi Yehudah HeChassid, Sefer Chassidim, 87).

    “One should respect all creatures, recognizing in them the greatness of the Creator Who formed man with wisdom. All creatures are imbued with the Creator’s wisdom, which itself makes them greatly deserving of honor. The Maker of All, the Wise One Who transcends everything, is associated with His creatures in having made them. If one were to disparage them, God forbid, this would reflect upon the honor of their Maker.” (Ramak, Tomer Devorah, ch. 2).

    #983676
    WIY
    Member

    Heres what I found on Halachafortoday.com

    256) Q: Is it against halacha to euthanize a pet? Our cat is 19 years old and is simply dying of old age. The vet gave us a list of sicknesses she may be suffering from but there is no cure at this stage of the game for any of those possible problems. I have been under the impression forever that it is against halacha to euthanize an animal. A close relative (who knows how to learn) claims otherwise and is urging us to put the cat down. Is there a heter to do this?

    #983677
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Apart from whether it is halachicly permissible, let’s just remember that as it is natural for humans to feel more sympatheic toward creatures of higher intelligence (since they are closer to humans themselves), wanting to kill one for no particluar reason probably means you are a psychopath.

    #983678
    bubka
    Participant

    Higher intelligence? Closer to humans themselves? Cats?

    #983679
    WIY
    Member

    Oneofmany

    A dolphin may be of some sort of higher intelligence. Not a cat.

    #983680
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    -_- As opposed to bugs, guys. Answering the question as asked.

    #983681
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    WIY: They do say that dolphins are the most intelligent of the animals, but why do you think that means that they are the only intelligent creatures?

    #983682
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    There are more ways to skin a cat than a bug.

    Speaking of which, we saw a huuuuuuuuuuuuge toad on friday night. My niece was scared as blazes of it.

    #983683
    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    OneOfMany, so does that mean it is assur to kill mice? ^_^

    #983684

    WIY – I question how much experience you have with cats (and dolphins). I doubt any.

    @uneeq, I’m not going to waste words on you.

    I myself took 3 cats straight off the streets of Jerusalem, took them into my house and took them with me when I moved to the UK. They’ll be staying with me as long as they live, hopefully at least another 15 years or so.

    Actually there was a fourth cat as well, but she unfortunately didn’t live, since she was too weak and wounded when we found her (and I failed to notice that she was severely hypothermic and did not handle that appropriately).

    #983685
    Curiosity
    Participant

    Animals are created to serve us. If they can serve us in death, we have all the right to kill them, no matter how “intelligent” they are.

    #983686
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Well, if they are trying to steal your brain (or if they are named Brain)… ^_^

    #983687
    Finala
    Member

    Bubka, why would you even ASK such a thing?!? Killing animals simply for the sake of killing is CRUEL. Hashem teaches us that we need to have respect for ALL creation, including animals. I’m fairly certain that the ONLY, and I repeat ONLY times you should be killing animals is if they are sick/injured and suffering to the point where you cannot heal/cure them in any way, and to release them from their pain, OR, if the animals are kosher and you’re going to shecht them for Jewish consumption, but of course this does not apply to cats. yytz said it more succinctly than I did.

    Uneeq, you’re forgetting that those “filthy” cats that are homeless and running feral around Jerusalem, were once brought in to kill infestations of rats and mice. If someone were kind enough to spay/neuter many of them, as well as give them homes, you won’t have to deal with them. On the other hand, if you don’t like cats, just move away from them.

    #983688
    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    Curiosity: For the last time, it was an accident!!!

    LIKE!

    ?ns ?o suo?????do ?o p??? pu? ‘??p???? ‘??puno? ???

    (319bu?ddo?s) 319[$]

    [$]613 (Shopping613)

    The Founder, Awarder, and Head of Operations of SUC

    #983689
    uneeq
    Member

    Finala: On the other hand, if you don’t like cats, just move away from them.

    Now you’ve just taken animal-loving to crazy-person levels.

    #983690
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    It is insane, they absolutely must put out poison in jerusalem.

    #983691
    akuperma
    Participant

    A pet cat is privately owned property of someone, so you are destroying their property.

    While feral cats may seem like a pest, they really don’t live off garbage. They live off rodents. Rodents are quite bad. Some have said a major factor in the introduction of the Bubonic plague (Black Death) in parts of Europe was a wave of “cat killing” (the Christians decided they were really witches).

    Killing some insects may raise a similar problem. For example, most spiders are harmless to humans, they eat meany mean and nasty (from a human perspective) insects.

    Then of course, there is the halachic issue of causing unnecessary pain to animals, which would apply even to animals that are annoying or dangerous to humans, and all the more so to those that are beneficials (such as ones that kill rats, or mosquitoes).

    #983692
    aurora77
    Participant

    I have Internet where Iam so I can still visit the Coffee Room after all when I am away!

    Popa, having known people whose cats were poisoned to death, I know that it is a very painful, excruciating death. It is not kind to do this to any animal.

    #983693
    wanderingchana
    Participant

    Having a pet can teach children responsibility and compassion for all of Hashem’s creatures. If we cover the challah at kiddush as a lesson that the challah shouldn’t be ’embarrassed’ (and therefore we should be be careful not to embarrass our fellow Jews), then having a pet can also be a constant reminder to be aware of our actions and to extend consideration to people around us as well – ‘be careful not to step on the cat/little sibling’, ‘make sure the dog has food and water/offer family members & guests a drink/food’ (kibbud av v’em & hachnassas orchim), etc…

    #983694
    miritchka
    Member

    I didnt want to start a new thread, maybe someone can help me out here. A neighbor o fmine feeds the strays in our neighborhood and actually makes trails to bring them to her house. Being near her house is so nauseating as the smell is horrible!! Frankly i dont care if she feeds them forever, if not for the fact that they started to come into my back yard at all hours of the night and meow so loud! I think it is only 1 or 2 cats that are consistantly doing this. It sounds like a baby crying which wakes me up every time. They are worse than my kids were as infants! We put out a powder (looks like black pepper) to keep them away and it worked for a few days. (the container said its good for cats dogs and rabbits)

    However, it is getting expensive to keep buying and annoying to constantyl powder our driveway and backyard. I’m so fed up with these cats i suggested we put out poison.

    Anyone ever had this issue that can help us?!

    #983696
    sushee
    Member

    In your case the animal is causing a nuisance, so killing it would be like killing a fly that is coming to your food.

    #983697
    oomis
    Participant

    Tzaar baalei chayim. Also, people who kill small animals with no remorse, often turn out to be headed in Charlie Manson’s direction.

    #983698
    farrockgrandma
    Participant

    While I am not in favor of killing anything larger than a rodent, a cat is in a category all by itself. a) it has 9 lives and b) there is a precedent that when curiosity killed the cat, satisfaction brought it back.

    #983699
    Toi
    Participant

    miritchka- as a resident of yerushalayim, im more than aquainted with your problem. try soaking a bunch of rags in bleach, and hanging them up in your backyard. cats hate the smell because its so strong. works every time. if it doesnt, use more bleach.

    #983700
    Curiosity
    Participant

    Use a crossbow… it’ll get them every time!! 😀

    #983701
    Ken Zayn
    Member

    You know what inspired me to click on this thread about killing cats? Curiosity!

    #983702
    YW Moderator-007
    Moderator

    It may be against the law to kill a stray cat.

    #983703
    sushee
    Member

    Curiosity killed the cat!

    #983704
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Ken Zayn: lol, that’s good. ^_^

    #983705
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Remember: Raabbeinu Hakadosh got Yesurim for 13 years after ignoring the cries of a cow doomed for slaughter.

    #983707
    WIY
    Member

    I think cats are a bit scary. They are just mini tigers. I always imagine a cat in the street will go bonkers and attack me with the full ferocity of a starved lion or tiger. Maybe I drink too much coffee lol.

    #983708
    miritchka
    Member

    Thank you! i will try the bleach…

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