King Charles and Queen Camilla
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- This topic has 122 replies, 27 voices, and was last updated 5 months, 1 week ago by Always_Ask_Questions.
October 2, 2022 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #2128996
first, those were not “our founding fathers”, unless your ancestors were accountants on the Mayflower. For the rest of us – we were accepted by this country when we ran away from other, less welcoming, places. So, some of our fathers made a heshbon that this country is worth it.
I do agree with you that early America was full of wild and unsavory characters. No reason to contrast with Britain, where most of those future rebels either ran away from or were sent from for their crimes.
But this makes it even more interesting to see how those rebels were able to envision a better place … if you disagree with their vision, maybe you can start with the running criticism of the federalist papers rather than snarky remarks.October 2, 2022 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #2129027
Hashem provided a place to escape from the inquisition of Ferdinand and Isabella, who themselves hired Columbus to discover America.October 3, 2022 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #2129202
The only thing snarky is your founding fathers statement
I am simply presenting an alternative understanding of the founding fathers (happy now?) actions through, what I believe, to be the lens of the torah
It is very easy to buy into the idea that somehow america was founded by people rising up against a brutal regime (an idea expressed by a poster)
but it simply isn’t true
In some respects the “brutal ” monarchy we were fighting against was certainly more humane than the govt we created. Slavery, trail of tears, Jim crow. We could be a very brutal country. On the slavery subject we were many years behind the more civilized monarchy.
It was certainly a haven of sorts for the yidden but only to an extent. We all can agree the closed borders in 1939 where catastrophic. And those yidden that arrived before the war were decimated by assimilation. I stand by what I said.October 3, 2022 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #2129251
Assimilation was their choice. They did not have to assimilate as the chassidim in Europe dressed differently to avoid it.October 3, 2022 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #2129264
mentsch1: Slavery is a supported Torah value.October 3, 2022 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #2129263
We should always keep in mind that we are strangers in a strange place. Moshe Rabbenu called his first son Gershom and the second Eliezer. Hashem helps if the above is kept constantly in mind.October 3, 2022 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #2129323
mentch > I am simply presenting an alternative understanding of the founding fathers
I am not objecting to alternative theories, I am proposing that you show how your theory applies to what those people actually proposed. They left lots of writings and you are showing no sign of addressing their arguments. As they were successful at building a reasonable society, we should certainly inquire at how they were able to do it. This is not to deny the negative sides of American then and later.October 3, 2022 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm #2129359
Nothing about American slavery was a Jewish value. We both know that.
Besides for the examples that I already stated, it is estimated that 2 million people, about 20% died on slave ships. As I said that was the cost of doing business.
Slavers were evil men they weren’t doing G-ds work.October 3, 2022 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #2129360
First. Whether or not their political theories were of value it doesn’t change the fact that they were mored bmalchus and started a war that killed thousands for political reasons.
Two their written reasons (federalists papers) aren’t going to be intellectually honest and say “hey we want to keep slavery”
I found this nice quote about the fathers complaining they were “slaves” because of a lack of representation
The irony in using this sort of language was not lost on many British Tories, who called out these rebel hypocrites. “We are told, that the subjection of Americans may tend to the diminution of our own liberties; an event, which none but very perspicacious politicians are able to foresee. If slavery be thus fatally contagious, how is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the drivers of negroes?” wrote Dr. Samuel Johnson in 1775. Indeed, these sentiments not only labeled many of the American leaders as hypocrites, but it also took a swipe at the very notion that America was founded on principles that were universal for all humansOctober 4, 2022 12:12 am at 12:12 am #2129369
Mentsch1: if the South had fully enforced all Torah requirements for the institution of slavery, you’d be commending them now for having been righteous in the matter?October 4, 2022 12:29 am at 12:29 am #2129372
out of all modern political experiments, American one seems to be most successful, stable, and least bloody. Compare with French, Russian, Chinese experiences. It may be in part due to relatively benign British rule (that evolved over time to a very similar democracy, after all, without any revolutions) and to remoteness from the centers of violence. Still, given the success, you can’t dismiss their theories as simple hypocrisy to cover up slavery.
I suspect people who dismiss American thinkers not only are trying to build up their own theories, but are also covering up their own lack of education. I measured readability level of various authors last year with kids: recent Presidents come up at 6 to 10th grade level, James Madison – as 38th grade … So, maybe people who refuse to read and engage with those arguments simply may not be able to read them.October 4, 2022 7:48 am at 7:48 am #2129399
We would be having a whole different discussion
But we would also need to have a discussion about how those people became slaves to begin with
I’m reasonably sure the raiding of African villages to kidnap and supply the slave ships is a violation of “lo signav “October 4, 2022 7:49 am at 7:49 am #2129400
Or America is really a failed experiment as indicated by our ignorance and values
We did have a brief moment. But we seem to be in quick decline
In either case
My point has always been that the Brit’s were ahead of us as a social /political “enlightenment “. I do not dismiss British evils. They continued expansion into the early 1990’s. But they where still ahead of us. They weren’t a Wild West Country all they way through the 1800,s. They didn’t fight a civil war that killed half a million (their civil war was in the 1600’s) had we stayed as colonies in all likelihood many of the early evils of America would either not have happened or came to an end earlier. In stead it was their example that was a light unto the nations and forced the reckoning that caused the war to finally end evil.
And you can’t dismiss that the founding fathers were hypocritesOctober 4, 2022 7:49 am at 7:49 am #2129403
I’ve been to China on business
You will see /hear more cops in a day in the us than a month in china
Their homicide rate is a fraction of ours
So yes, you don’t have the same freedoms but is being able to say and do anything the true Torah value of success?October 4, 2022 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #21294902scentsParticipant
Your cherry picking. Is Russia crime free?
Besides, democracy and freedom of choice has consequences, people will make bad choices. But having a few decide for the many is bad.
Communism resulted in the death of millions.October 4, 2022 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #21294912scentsParticipant
“ is being able to say and do anything the true Torah value of success?”
Is placing severe restrictions that are not from Hashem or have anything to do with religion, a true Torah value?
You know where else there is little crime? In prisons. Does that mean society should be placed in prison?October 19, 2022 10:43 am at 10:43 am #2131052hujuParticipant
Re AAQ’s comment of 10/2/22, 7:59 pm: Your comment overlooks the fact that there were substantial numbers of Jews in Britain’s American colonies in the 1770’s. They were mostly from Spain and Portugal. Your comment also contains what I consider an anti-Semitic stereotype, i.e., that Jews are accountants. Jews are plenty of things (including accountants), but your comment buys into the notion that very many of us are accountants. (I do like Jackie Mason’s joke that the Jews who become accountants are not smart enough to be doctors or lawyers, but, of course, I am a lawyer.)October 19, 2022 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #2131136
Take 2 — Trivia: When did England have three Queens simultaneously?October 19, 2022 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #2131197
huju, I accept your addition, unless your ancestors were Sephardim in the colonies or were possible illegitimate father of Hamilton.
FYI, R Arye Lebowitz YU says that his smarter brother was supposed to be a doctor and he only a lawyer and then he switched to Rabbanut. By free association – Saul Lieberman offered Elie Wiesel a smicha so that he could get a job if journalism does not work out, to which EW answered “I am not suited to be a Rabbi”. SL replied “me too”.October 20, 2022 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #2131293
Liz Truss resigns after 44 days fearing a kakistocracy, the worst people will rule.October 20, 2022 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #2131363
Women in power is not a good thing.October 23, 2022 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #2131895philosopherParticipant
ujm, lol. Meanwhile, both English Queen Elizabeths were great queens ( relatively speaking; I’m not a fan of “royalty”) while most kings of England were murderers and cheaters having tons of illegitimate children.October 24, 2022 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #2132169
I am not so sure that Queens have advantage over Kings. There were way more Kings in history and so there are more memorable Kings famous for their misadventures. In Jewish history, there was were good Queens during Chashmonaim times, but then there was Jezebel…
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