Kitniyos Expansion

Home Forums Bais Medrash Kitniyos Expansion

Viewing 16 posts - 1 through 16 (of 16 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1250784

    simcha613
    Participant

    Why do we try and expand the prohibition of kitniyos to include things (like peanuts or quinoa) that weren’t part of the original minhag? Are there other minhagim that we redefine by saying “had the minhag been enacted with this information, it surely would have been prohibited?” If I remember correctly, R’ Moshe has a teshuvah trying to forbid Shabbos clocks with the argument that had Chazal been around today they would have prohibited timers in the same way they prohibited Amira LaAkum… but we certainly don’t paskin like that. If we aren’t expanding Dinei DeRabanan to include things we suspect would have been in the original gezeirah… we are we expanding the prohibitions from a minhag?

    #1251033

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    R’ Moshe did not forbid shabbos clocks outright; he allowed them for lights but not air conditioners.

    Rabbi Rosen of the Star-k explains the prohibition of Kitniyos as follows:

    “Why are kitniyos forbidden for consumption on Pesach? The Mishnah Brura enumerates a number of reasons. One reason is that there is a possibility that chometz grains could be mixed amongst the kitniyos grains, creating an inadvertent yet real chometz problem when the grains are cooked together. Another reason is that if kitniyos products would be permitted, confusion within the general public could result in mistaking permitted kitniyos flour and forbidden chometz flour. Although these might not be problems of epidemic proportions, the Rema considered them to be real enough to forbid the eating of kitniyos on Pesach.”

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14169&hilite=592ee3f9-9d9f-477b-95fd-b4b5b6fe5a4a&st=%D7%AA%D7%A0%D7%92&pgnum=92

    As for Quinoa, Rabbi Rosen wrote:

    It was determined that quinoa is Kosher L’Pesach. It is not related to millet, rice or the chameishis minei dagan, five types of grain products. Quinoa is a member of the “goose foot” family, which includes sugar beets and beet root. STAR-K tested quinoa to see if it would rise. The result was sirchon, as termed by Chazal, which means the quinoa decayed and did not rise. Furthermore, quinoa’s growth does not resemble kitniyos and, as cited in Igros Moshe O.C. (3:63), we do not consider additional products beyond what was originally established. However, recent investigations have found that there is a possibility that quinoa grows in proximity to certain grains and/or is processed in facilities that compromise Kosher for Passover status. Therefore, quinoa may be used only on Pesach with reliable Kosher for Passover approval.

    #1251036

    Meno
    Participant

    R’ Moshe has a teshuvah…but we certainly don’t paskin like that

    I’m pretty sure there are people who do follow R’ Moshe in that regard

    #1251038

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Quinoa is not Kintiyot. it is not a legume its a berry

    As stated if you want to eat Quinoa, it must have an OU-P or Star-K P to be used for Pesach

    #1251040

    Redleg
    Participant

    Based on the reasons quoted above and others, can someone explain why potato starch ISN’T kitnios?

    #1251060

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Redleg

    There are opinions that Potatatoes ARE Kitniyot

    #1251076

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    simcha613

    A better example is R’ Moshe’s Teshuva on peanuts where he says they arent included in kitniyos for the very reason you mention. However klal yisroel has accepted that peanuts are kitniyos (I’m sure their are yechidim who do eat peanuts but clearly the general hanhaga is not to)

    On the other hand Corn which wasnt included in the original geziera is kitniyos according to all (as far as I am aware). As mentioned, some tried to include Potatoes but the practice is not to.

    The bottom line is, their isnt always logic to these minhagim and the “reasons” given often lead to more questions than answers . Consider we treat kitniyos more chamur than wheat, since we DO eat wheat (As long as follows strict rules) yet rice we dont eat at all. They develop out of love for mitzvos and concern for issurim. There is no need for you to add new issurim just follow the practice of klal yisroel, maaminim benei maaminim and you will be fine.

    #1251122

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    ZD: Rabbi Belsky tzatzal held that Quinoa is kitniyos and it was his “machlokes” with R’ Hershel Shachter Shlita (who holds it is not) that caused the OU to not give a hashgacha for Pesach on Quinoa for a number of years.

    #1251110

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “Quinoa is not Kintiyot. it is not a legume its a berry”

    I am glad that we have your psak, however there are real rabbonim who say that there may be reason to include quinoa in kitniyos. Ask your Rov.

    But the distinction that you make, that kitniyos are solely legumes, is silly. Rice is not a legume, and everyone agrees that rice is included in the minhag. You love to comment that some consider potatoes kitniyos, yet potatoes are not legumes.

    #1251708

    yehudayona
    Participant

    To add to what Nisht pointed out, other non-legumes that are kitniyos are corn (maize), millet, and buckwheat (kasha). Redleg, I think if you tested potato starch to see if it would rise, you’d gat a similar result to quinoa. So-called potato bread is wheat-flour based. But I also suspect that you’d get similar results with bean flour and rice flour.

    #1251746

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    The problem is that we translate the word kitniyos as “legume” since the word kitniyos was also used for beans.

    #1251776

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    A few years ago, the OU hired a bunch of Biologists to find out exactly what Quinoa was and they said it was some sort of berry or fruit.

    They then send a delegation to Ecudador to the fields of where Quinoa is grown to see if Quinoa was even grown near wheat and it was not

    After this massive reseach, They decided that it was not Kitnyot. Given the fact the OU is a recognizable name and would destroy their reputation if they declared something kosher when it was not and they did the actual painstaking research, their opinion must be given promimance

    #1251787

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “their opinion must be given promimance”

    Credence, I can understand, but prominence?

    As has been pointed out, one can make similar arguments for corn. for whatever reason, the general minhag is not to eat corn, since Quinoa is relatively speaking new, Poskim disagree how to classify it. Certainly, in the field of Kashrus the OU is a credible opinion, and you may certainly consider it the most prominent opinion, but it does not mean that one must give them the final say on all matters Kashrus.

    #1251805

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    APY,

    If you read ZDs comment, he did not say to give their opinion “prominence”.

    #1252823

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Given the fact the OU is a recognizable name and would destroy their reputation if they declared something kosher when it was not and they did the actual painstaking research, their opinion must be given promimance – See more at: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/kitniyos-expansion#sthash.VR8FS9dL.dpuf

    Like putting their symbol on the outside of a package with treif food inside? Or putting OU Pareve on something that contains milk? http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/ou-kashrus-is-not-reliable

    #1253621

    takahmamash
    Participant

    On Pesach we ate peanuts while I was growing up, and my LOR said that based on that my family could continue to do so. Peanuts and peanut oil did not magically turn into kitniyot sometime in the last 50 years or so. We also eat (certified KlP) quinoa.

Viewing 16 posts - 1 through 16 (of 16 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.