Klal Yisroel Needs an Official Central Yichus Registry
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- This topic has 26 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 5 months ago by ujm.
November 8, 2021 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #2026122
Run by appointees of Gedolei Yisroel. To protect us from Goyim falsely posing as Yidden (which we heard many such stories just in the last few months), from the offspring of non-Orthodox (Reform, Conservative, etc) “converts” who may later become a “Baal Teshuva” (the Reform and Conservatives have been producing “converts” for over a century already), from the offspring of bad gittin (Get Me’usa’s, i.e. such as those who remarried after the infamous Epstein forced Get’s exposed a few years ago), offspring of non-Orthodox remarriages after a valid marriage but an invalid or no Get, offspring of patrilineal descent (Jewish father, non-Jewish mother/grandmother/great-grandmother) of the heterodox movements, and other instances of people either pretending or even actually and really believing themselves to be Jewish when, halachicly, they are either a gentile, mamzer or safek mamzer.November 8, 2021 10:52 pm at 10:52 pm #2026192
Maran HaGaon HaRav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv zt’l said not long before his petira, when he saw the real-world problems with invalid gittin (me’usa), that Klal Yisroel may come to a point where a central Yichus Registry will be necessary to be established.November 9, 2021 8:46 am at 8:46 am #2026212takahmamashParticipant
Good luck with that!November 9, 2021 8:47 am at 8:47 am #2026234ohrchadash1Participant
Although some people may be just waking up to this issue now, there are actually already Rabbanim who specialize in yuchsin when there are complicated issues.
It should rather be standard practice in every community, if it isnt alread, (and by many communities it certainly is) to check seder yuchsin by every marriage.
There are actual halachos about accepting someones word if a stranger comes to town and they say they are jewish and want aliyos/ say they are a Kohen etc.November 9, 2021 8:49 am at 8:49 am #2026249ymribiatParticipant
Those types of registries are handy references for Natzi’s, mullahs, and LDS.November 9, 2021 9:26 am at 9:26 am #2026263provaxxParticipant
What about the offspring of TROLLS? (ujm)November 9, 2021 11:53 am at 11:53 am #2026273rightwriterParticipant
Ymribiat”Those types of registries are handy references for Natzi’s, mullahs, and LDS”
That was always what came to mind whenever I hear of shul membership lists and the like. Since that’s what was used to round up Jews in the past. The difference is though that nowaDays they don’t really need lists since the government, Google, and every app you sign up for know everything about everyone including all document numbers and photos. But it’s just the thought that makes it uncomfortable.November 9, 2021 11:53 am at 11:53 am #2026293commonsaychelParticipant
It already exist its run by the MormonsNovember 9, 2021 11:53 am at 11:53 am #2026294
This idea is reflected in the current tragic news:
Alarming Report Reveals Number Of Intermarriages In The Jewish State
Trust of Dayonim:
HaRav Yitzchak Yosef To Boycott Committee For Appointing DayanimNovember 9, 2021 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #2026385akupermaParticipant
You can reasonably be certain that if it is run by the dominant organizations of the Jewish community in either Eretz Yisrael or Golus, it will NOT be operated according to Torah. Most Jews in both Israel and Golus are not frum, and the richest and politically best connected are not frum. As a small, frequently discriminated against (at best, persecuted has historically been the norm), we can hardly create an “official” anything,
The best solution is to assume that anyone who is not Shomer Shabbos is a putative non-Jew (at least for marriage purposes, not for whether he/she can be a Shabbos Goy or buy our hametz over Pesach), and unless the person can reliably trace maternal ancestry to someone who was frum, they should expect to need to convert if they want to part of the frum community. The high rate of intermarriage began over two centuries ago, and given the custom in western countries to identify children by their father’s surname, one should assume, unless proven otherwise, that anyone whose family is not frum and has Jewish surname is not Jewish. It should be noted that in situations where a Baal Tseuvah (i.e. someone not frum who has decided to become frum) discovers he/she is not Jewish, since the person is already shomer mitsvos, conversion is very uncomplicated.November 9, 2021 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #2026468ymribiatParticipant
@uperma Good point. A registry would kill any chance of fundraising, political collaboration, or proateletizing outside of the “frum” community. In other words it would break Lakewood, Chabad, and Satmar in one stroke.
But I still think the opportunity for anti semites to use it out ways the potential rewards.November 9, 2021 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #2026469KuvultParticipant
It will never work. Who gets to decide if someone like Ivanka is Jewish? There’s a bigger world than just Charedim.
You’ll also fan the flames of the Non-Orthodox saying, “You see the Orthodox don’t consider us Jews”
Its also wrong to assume across the board non-frum aren’t Jewish. I live in a major Jewish community and Jews married Jews both from here, often related. The intermarriage rate here is 20%. Assuming 10% are women and also Jewish men who marry a Gentile often leave the community, probably 95% of people claiming to be Jews here actually are. To assume their Non-Jewish is both false and highly insulting.November 9, 2021 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #2026506Shimon NodelParticipant
Out ways or outweighs?
Also, how do you not know that every 1st world nation already keeps record of all its Jews? There absolutely needs to be a registry. It is a scandal and an embarrassment that we don’t have one already. They had it a thousand years ago, so wgat is our excuse in the 21st century?
Ujm, also chalalim are unfortunately very common today.November 9, 2021 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #2026507
ymr: Did you really completely misconstrue and utterly misinterpret akuperma’s comment or did you purposelessly misstate it to suit your anti-frum agenda?November 9, 2021 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #2026510philosopherParticipant
ynribiat, how in the world would a registry break Lakewood, Chabad and Satmer in one stroke?November 10, 2021 9:26 am at 9:26 am #2026699Thinking out loudParticipant
RE: “They had it 1000 years ago” Can you explain? Who had a registry of all Jews? Other than the Nazis. IF the inquisition (I am speculating), attempted to make such a list of the LOCAL definable Jews, that was not 1000 years ago. What are you referring to?November 10, 2021 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #2026841Shimon NodelParticipant
Every Jewish family had a sefer yechusin a thousand years ago. The tzibur was also very careful with keeping track of everyone’s yichus. Over time, things got out of hand. Families branched out, the sfarim were lost.November 10, 2021 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #2026838akupermaParticipant
No national has ever had a registry of Jews, though some local communities might have had a list (probably to show who had full rights in the community, and who didn’t).
While some countries have national registers that indicate ethnicity or religion, none of these were based on halacha. In effect, the zionists use a similar system: anyone whose arguably believable claim to have Jewish ancestry and does not claim to be a member of any religion other than some from of Judaism, is considered Jewish for immigration purposes; to the Israelis, it is not relevant that the the individual is an atheist from a long line of atheists and the mother and maternal grandmother were not Jewish.November 10, 2021 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #2026941Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Germany in 19th century probably had a list. You were supposed to pay taxes to one of the official religions. So, their IRS was probably keeping tabs. Or any other country with a similar system.November 11, 2021 5:14 am at 5:14 am #2027009AviraDeArahParticipant
Cooperation on kashrus has proven to be an achdus driving force. The same could be said of a yichus registry, once kehilos can come up with a system wherein all parts of the kehilos are represented. I don’t see it happening anytime soon though.
Having individual cities run their own yichus logs sounds a lot more doable to me. If they could do it in Europe without computers, I’m sure it can be done easily nowadays.November 11, 2021 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #2027289Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Social security and residential records are available in US. Plus genealogical sites. You can probably automatically collect an initial draft for the family tree and then review unclear itemsNovember 12, 2021 11:19 am at 11:19 am #2027505
There is a shiur on it:November 12, 2021 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #2027544
From the Torah, vayisyachsu al mishpechasam, where Rashi says that they all brought their yichus letter.November 14, 2021 12:06 pm at 12:06 pm #2028085
No one should imagine that faking Jewishness, like this story, is a one-off:
LISTEN TO IT: Interview With Muslim Lebanese Man Who Deceived Syrian Jewish Girl Into Marrying HimNovember 15, 2021 7:36 am at 7:36 am #2028379ZSKParticipant
We have one – it’s called the Misrad HaDatot – and it doesn’t work very well because of power politics.December 1, 2021 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #2037014December 3, 2021 11:29 am at 11:29 am #2037696
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