August 8, 2012 3:51 am at 3:51 am #918528choppyParticipant
And none of your so-called “counterarguments” could be viewed as justifying refraining from eating meat entirely. At most it is to limit the amount or time when meat is consumed. But all agree meat should be consumed on various times or occasions.August 8, 2012 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #918529
Choppy, you say not eating meat at all must stem from some kind of apikorsus. All I can say is, tell that to the dozens of Orthodox rabbis who are vegetarians, and the many other authorities who were supportive of vegetarianism. (See R’ Dovid Sears’ book for more information). Also, many people go vegetarian for one particular reason, such as health arguments by certain well-known doctors or tzaar baalei chayim concerns, but many go vegetarian after looking at all the arguments — health, environmental, animal, etc. — and decide that it just makes sense. If you read my previous comments, you’ll see that I do think there are certain hashkafic dangers to vegetarianism, but that doesn’t mean that’s it’s not permitted or that it’s a sign of kefira.August 8, 2012 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #918530zahavasdadParticipant
What if someone doesnt like meat or Fish, Its that Apikorsus too?
After all it says ain Simcha eleah Dag v’Basar
Personally I dont care for Chicken or Gefilte Fish and I wont eat it unless there is nothing else to eat and I wont eat the Gefilte Fish unless its totally drenched in Chrain.August 8, 2012 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #918531WolfishMusingsParticipant
::: just sitting back, waiting for the statement that I know will eventually come::
The (patiently waiting) WolfAugust 9, 2012 1:38 am at 1:38 am #918532CuriosityParticipant
It should be a chiyuv to tell your shidduch date if you’re a vegetarian.
Would you want
/awife to not cook meat?August 9, 2012 3:35 am at 3:35 am #918533
Curiosity: She wouldn’t have to be a vegetarian though. And meat is hard to prepare. I’m sure many wives would be happy with not having to prepare it much.August 9, 2012 7:43 am at 7:43 am #918534CuriosityParticipant
Sam2 I was totally joking.
I completely failed on the italics there… Kept pushing edit and trying it differently until it was too late. Could anyone please explain or link me to a thread that explains how to use the code in this forum for italics and bold? I know basic coding in Java, HTML, and C, but I just can’t for the life of me figure this one out. The coding instructions on the bottom are just confusing me.August 9, 2012 9:06 am at 9:06 am #918535KozovMember
“After all it says ain Simcha eleah Dag v’Basar”
ZeDa- It actually says Elah baBasar and baYayin. And, that’s talking about YomTov, not Shabbos, when it is a Chiyuv to eat meat and drink wine. As for Shabbos and fish you’re doing fine, you don’t like it, that would be hepech Oneg Shabbos.
Sam- are you talking about Y”D 341:1? See the Pischei Tshuva who is michalek between Shabbos and YomTov where there is a Chiyuv mitaam Simchas YomTov. And on Shabbos TishaBav and for an Avel there is a Chiyuv to eat meat, see Magen Avraham 13 in O”C 552 (and Machatzis Hashekel). And even from 341:1 I’m not sure it means that you *should* do what you want, maybe just that you could. See Tur O”C 242 where he says “Tzarich Liharbos” (and “Yesh LiAdam Lizarez Atzmo”) and Shulchan Aruch 250:2.
So sometimes there is a Chiyuv to eat meat.August 9, 2012 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #918537
Curioisty: Italics is <em > and bold is <strong >. They’re underneath the place you post in.
Kozov: I’ll look again, but I thought the Shach over there said that Im Yirtzeh applies to any normal Shabbos and Yom Tov as well.August 9, 2012 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #918538choppyParticipant
Yes, Kozov is correct. There is a chiyuv to eat meat those days, and vegetarians are oiver an aveira by refraining. (If they aren’t an onus due to ill health from it.)August 9, 2012 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #918539
I don’t understand the whole concept of saying Ein Simcha Ela B’vasar by Simchas Yom Tov anyway. Doesn’t the Gemara immediately say that that was only referring to Basar of Korbanos?August 9, 2012 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #918540
It is common misconception that Jews are required to eat meat. If you do research you’ll see this is not the case. I’ve already posted about Shabbos above.
It is not required to eat meat on Yom Tov. From an article I found by R’ Ari Enkin:
 However, most contemporary authorities argue that since the destruction of the Beit Hamikdash, meat does not arouse the same level of joy that it once did. 
 Pesachim 109a, Rambam Yom Tov 6:18
 Kaf Hachaim O.C. 529:28
 Biur Halacha 529 s.v. Keitzad, Kaf Hachaim 529:22
As for Tisha B’Av, it is not required to eat meat, just permitted.August 9, 2012 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #918541
I meant *Shabbos* Tisha B’Av, not Tisha B’Av.August 10, 2012 10:17 am at 10:17 am #918542twistedParticipant
Ah Sam2, I don’t really deserve your “its ok” approval. It is a halachic issue. From the little I have seen and the great deal I have read, I don’t feel correct in relying on any shechita that is not absolutely local and managed transparently. Non factory raised and backyard shechita is the gold standard I hold to. It is somewhat easier here in EY where you can go and pick up a b. daka, and engage a neighbor shochet to do the processing. Its just a risk of near total loss if found treifa.August 10, 2012 11:20 am at 11:20 am #918543twistedParticipant
Ah Sam2, I don’t really deserve your “its ok” approval. It is a halachic issue. From the little I have seen and the great deal I have read, I don’t feel correct in relying on any shechita that is not absolutely local and managed transparently. Non factory raised and backyard shechita is the gold standard I hold to. It is somewhat easier here in EY where you can go and pick up a b. daka, and engage a neighbor shochet to do the processing. Its just a risk of near total loss if found treifa.August 20, 2012 3:31 am at 3:31 am #918544KozovMember
Even according to the Biur Halacha, not only is there a Mitzva *if* you eat Basar, there is a Mitzva *to* eat Basar. See Mishna Brura 529:11.September 16, 2012 5:34 am at 5:34 am #918545DovidMMember
When you add vegetarianism and veganism to Judaism, it seems like you are making a statement that the Gedolim of the past were somehow not complete in their observance. I say this as someone whose family Minhag is not to eat meat on Tuesdays and Thursdays.
Reducing the amount of meat for health reasons is certainly commendable, but I don’t think our Gedolim overlooked a huge ethical issue which is only now coming to light.September 16, 2012 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #918546
DovidM: I think most vegetarians (at least Frum ones) don’t eat meat because of the terrible way it is necessary to keep animals on massive Shechitah farms, an ethical issue that really didn’t exist in previous generations at all. (Very similar to how R’ Moshe Shternbuch last year said that the vast amount of chickens needed for Kapparos in such a small space makes it inherently Tza’ar Ba’alei Chayim.)September 19, 2012 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #918547
I am a lifelong vegetarian. My mother always was (got it from her parents) and my father became vegetarian when he met my mother. So me and my sisters grew up without meat/fish.
I’m completely healthy, as are they. And I don’t take any food supplements at all.
Reasons? As Sam2 says, I find the treatment of animals in the meat industry apprehensive. But even without that – I simply grew up like this and will never change it. The thought of putting something in my mouth that was once walking around and had a brain, eyes, ears and bones, makes me totally sick. I will never in my life eat meat, and I don’t care what anyone thinks about that.
By the way, it’s interesting to know that on the same piece of ground on which you could put animals to get meat to feed 50 people, you could grow vegetables to feed 200 people (not sure of the exact ciphers, but I know the principle is true). It is a fact that if the entire world would cease eating meat, there would be no hunger and starvation in the world, and every person in the world would have plenty of food, even if the world had not 8 but 20 billion inhabitants.September 20, 2012 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #918548
I once heard Harav Avigdor Miller A”H talk about this topic, This is what he said.
The activists have a point, they are right! according to logic man has no right to kill animal. However, Hashem has told us otherwise that is why Jews have permission to kill animals for food.
IN other words, an atheist or anyone that does not believe in the Torah, has no permission to kill and eat animals, it is only the word of Hashem that permits us to do so.September 20, 2012 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #918549sheinMember
Sam2: Bad comparison. Rav Moshe Shternbuch never said not to do kapporos with chickens. He was simply promoting treating the animals properly — and then using them.
TCG: Your vegetarian defensive logic that the animal was a living, walking, creature and therefore you cannot eat it is the antitheism of the Torah, whether you do or do not care or change.September 20, 2012 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #918550
Shein: And if the only way to do Kapporos is to treat them improperly then don’t do them with chickens (and yes, he said just last year that under the current conditions in Meah She’arim it should not be done with chickens). I could definitely hear a similar claim here. As long as animals are mistreated we should not buy meat because that promotes the mistreatment. It’s not an illegitimate argument.September 20, 2012 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #918551
It is pure sheker and l”h to assert that the yiddishe shochtim today mistreat the animals.September 20, 2012 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #918552
Who said that the only way to do Kapporos is to treat the chickens improperly?
Everyone who does Kapporos with chickens (or any other living thin) has a chiyuv to make sure that there is no Tzaar to the chicken.September 20, 2012 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #918553
@2scents (and shein):
“The activists have a point, they are right! according to logic man has no right to kill animal. However, Hashem has told us otherwise that is why Jews have permission to kill animals for food.
IN other words, an atheist or anyone that does not believe in the Torah, has no permission to kill and eat animals, it is only the word of Hashem that permits us to do so.”
Correct. We have *permission* to eat meat. However, we do not *have* to. I freely choose not to eat meat. As for those who consider it a requirement to eat meat, it’s generally the same kind of people who consider davening without a hat to be avodah zarah. Ie, very closed mindset.
I never said we’re not allowed to kill animals. The Torah clearly says we are allowed to. As for me personally however, I simply see absolutely no need to eat meat. I don’t need it, my body is completely healthy without it (and without any supplements also). So since I do not feel any need to eat it – on the other hand, I find meat repulsive – then why should I try and convince myself to suddenly start eating eat?
My wife eats meat, every frum person I know eats meat. I am most definitely a rarity. But I’ve always been rare, so that’s nothing new.September 20, 2012 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #918554interjectionParticipant
“The thought of putting something in my mouth that was once walking around and had a brain, eyes, ears and bones, makes me totally sick.”
Thats the reason most everyone I know who are vegetarians choose to not eat meat.September 20, 2012 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #918555
TCG: There IS a halachic requirement to eat meat sometimes. (See the discussion here earlier for one current example. Korbon Pesach is another historical and future example.)September 20, 2012 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #918556
2scents: Not in the Kapporos itself. In the shipping to and storing of dozens of thousands of chickens to Meah Shearim. That’s not possible without the Tza’ar Ba’alei Chayim.September 21, 2012 2:12 am at 2:12 am #918557
Sorry for misunderstanding your earlier post.September 21, 2012 2:13 am at 2:13 am #918558
Is it done any different then when the chickens are transported to the slaughterhouse?September 21, 2012 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #918559
TCG: Thanks for sharing. Not to be nosy, but I strongly suggest you take a B-12 supplement. Even many meat-eaters are deficient, but rates of deficiency are somewhat higher among vegetarians (particularly vegans). It’s also important to eat iodized salt or take a multivitamin that contains it — many people who use non-iodized salt end up deficient in that important mineral.
Because “chassidic” is in your screen name, I recommend reading the book A Vision of Eden by the vegetarian chassidic rabbi Dovid Sears. It’s available online for free as a pdf. I haven’t read the whole thing but what I’ve read is fascinating. It gives all the sources on animal and vegetarian-related issues, including both historical Jewish arguments for and against vegetarians.September 21, 2012 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #918560
@iced: no, there isn’t. Or well – I’m sure there is. It’s probably written in the same sefer that has the requirement to steal and burn other people’s iPhones and that declares that someone who doesn’t wear a hat for davening is a kofer. (Meaning I couldn’t care less. Such things are not halacha but nonsense.)September 21, 2012 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #918561
@yytz: thanks for the tip. Honestly, I have a hard time believing this is serious – I mean, he’s probably about as chassidish as I am. (When I was living in Yerushalayim I was more part of that world – now I am just myself.)
Regarding vitamin B12 – I’ve had a few tests throughout my life to check whether I have some deficiency, but each test has shown that I don’t need any supplements – not for that, nor for iron or any other vitamins. I’m glad with that, since it proves that being vegetarian is perfectly normal.September 21, 2012 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #918562zahavasdadParticipant
I am not a Vegatarian, but treatment of Animals is not always about Shechita, its about how the Animals are raised on the farm or ranch.
Most animals (In the US) are not raised by jewish farmers, they are raised by farmers and ranchers and sold at an auction and Jewish slaughter houses buy the animals for slaughter (Some Chickens are raised by jewish farms , but not all)September 21, 2012 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #918563ChortkovParticipant
I had a teacher who was a vegan, and I know his wife was also.
Also we had a woman eat at our house one Shabbos who was vegetarian.
I know a handful of others… maybe 7?
All the ones i know happen to be Balei Teshuva. Does that have any signifigance??September 21, 2012 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #918564ChortkovParticipant
I think it depends on why you aren’t eating meat: If you aren’t eating because of health reasons, then of course you are correct. If you aren’t eating meat because you want to attain a level of ??????… Good luck to you.
But if you are not eating because of ‘Cruelty to animals’, I believe it is wrong — A person must believe that the entire creation was made to serve Klal Yisroel and to help us fulfill our ????? on this world. A large proportion of animals were made to eat. There is a special to eat ??? on ??? ???. Believing in a principle that it is ‘wrong’ morally eat meat is against the haskofoh one should really have.
Enjoy the BBQ!!September 21, 2012 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #918565Kosher HamMember
I try to do the vegan thing during the weekdays, but I’m not 100% strict about it. It’s more for health reasons. I was diagnosed with high uric acid in my blood, which is a precursor for gout. My grandmother had that. I try and avoid plant protein as well.
Really, there is no need for any protein intake other than the Omegas: Omega-3, Omega-6, & Omega-9, since those are the only proteins that the body needs, but can’t manufacture. For those of you who want to comment about the need for protein, unless you send me a scientific study that states proteins are a necessity, don’t bother with your uneducated mythologies. I try to loosely follow the Pritikin Program.
I definitely eat fish, poultry, & red meat on Shabbos & Yom Tov, but I try to keep the protein intake to a minimum.
yytz: I know Dovid Sears personally. He’s a very sincere, pushute Breslover, and former Mendy the Golem comic book author.September 21, 2012 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #918566
TCG: It is a halachic obligation to eat meat on Yom Tov. See the discussion earlier for the maare mekomos. Being a vegetarian entails being a baal aveira.
Would you refuse to eat from the Korbon Pesach as well? We all know where that leads.September 21, 2012 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #918567
Kosher Ham: Omegas are types of fats, not proteins. Though you’re certainly right that there are no protein problems with being a vegetarian.
TGC: R’ Dovid Sears is a real chosid alright. He has written loads of books on chassidic and other topcis, and I think he runs the Breslov Center. I believe he’s a follower of Rav Elezar Kenig, the leader of the Breslov community of Tzfat.
There is no obligation to eat meat on yom tov — this is a common misconception, as has been shown above (and in numerous other places on the internet, if you care to investigate.)
Yekke2, it is wrong to be vegetarian because you think humans have no right to ever eat animals, but there is no problem in avoiding meat because of tzaar baalei chayim problems that occur before shechita. See the previous discussion on this thread.
I’m sure all frum vegetarians would have no problem in eating the korbanos when that becomes possible (and required.)September 21, 2012 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #918568
2scents: I honestly don’t know. And I hope I never find out. I’d still eat chicken anyway (probably), but I would feel very guilty about it.September 21, 2012 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #918569sheinMember
“It actually says Elah baBasar and baYayin. And, that’s talking about YomTov, not Shabbos, when it is a Chiyuv to eat meat and drink wine…
Y”D 341:1? See the Pischei Tshuva who is michalek between Shabbos and YomTov where there is a Chiyuv mitaam Simchas YomTov. And on Shabbos TishaBav and for an Avel there is a Chiyuv to eat meat, see Magen Avraham 13 in O”C 552 (and Machatzis Hashekel). And even from 341:1 I’m not sure it means that you *should* do what you want, maybe just that you could. See Tur O”C 242 where he says “Tzarich Liharbos” (and “Yesh LiAdam Lizarez Atzmo”) and Shulchan Aruch 250:2.
So sometimes there is a Chiyuv to eat meat.
Even according to the Biur Halacha, not only is there a Mitzva *if* you eat Basar, there is a Mitzva *to* eat Basar. See Mishna Brura 529:11.”
by KozovSeptember 21, 2012 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #918570
Shein, there is no obligation to eat meat on Yom Tov. See Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 529:1; Magen Avraham 696:15; and Darkei Teshuvah 89:19. See also Shaagat Aryeh 65.September 22, 2012 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #918571takahmamashParticipant
Being a vegetarian entails being a baal aveira.
In your own not very humble, and admittedly wrong opinion. The two rabbeim my wife and daughter spoke to about this didn’t seem to have the same opinion as you; in fact, they both paskened that they are fine with being vegans.
We all know where that leads.
Mixed dancing?September 23, 2012 4:08 am at 4:08 am #918572brotherofursParticipant
2 of my very close family members are vegetarians. one of them has tons of reasons why including: health, better for the earth (or sm like that), he also feels bad for the animals (he tells my mother not to wear real fur) – even though i don’t agree because if it was causing animals sa’ar then the Torah would prohibit eating meat.
My other family member just went to the farm when she was little and got nauseous when she realized that was the one she ate. she began being a vegan but had to stop because she wasn’t eating enough protein and it wasn’t good for her health. Now she’s a vegetarian.September 23, 2012 10:49 am at 10:49 am #918573
@iced – you must be a very nice person. So open-minded and able to understand that there are people with different opinions.
yytz said everything I would say – his words are my words.January 9, 2013 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #918574panni55Member
Curiosity: I am trying to be vegan but it is very hard to prepare food for shabbos without eggs. I am certainly not loony. I don’t try to convert people to veganism. It is really not right of you to make general assumptions based on your prejudices.January 9, 2013 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #918575popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Did I share my recipe for vegetarian liver here?
If you are vegan, you can substitute that, and take out the eggs.January 9, 2013 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #918576panni55Member
popa: The best vegetarian liver:
3 fried onions; one of them purple.
8 boiled eggs, mushed up.
1 Container of Meal Mart Liver
1 Vegetarian, chopped.
Take out the eggs & leave in the vegetarian????
Meal Mart liver?????January 9, 2013 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #918577popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I think your confusion stems from the fact that you forgot to substitute the vegan for the vegetarian. Try it again, and see how it tastes.January 9, 2013 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #918578takahmamashParticipant
I am trying to be vegan but it is very hard to prepare food for shabbos without eggs. I am certainly not loony. I don’t try to convert people to veganism.
It’s too bad you can’t contact me off list; my wife and 1 daughter are vegan, and they have no problems coming up with vegan Shabbat food. Have you read or bought any vegan cookbooks? There are tons of vegan recipes online.
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