Kohanim not being able to go to exhibits with real dead people.
Home › Forums › Bais Medrash › Kohanim not being able to go to exhibits with real dead people.
- This topic has 44 replies, 22 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 7 months ago by Hacham.
August 15, 2011 7:49 am at 7:49 am #598635
I’m not a total moron. Goyim are only mitameh b’magah and not b’oihel. Why, then, can’t kohanim go into these exhibits? and dont tell me that maybe the dead bodies were jews- cuz roiv would say that they’re goyim. this has been bugging me for a while.August 15, 2011 1:05 pm at 1:05 pm #800159on the ballParticipant
Who said they can’t?August 15, 2011 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #800160anon1m0usParticipant
Is there a difference between dead people and “real” dead people?:) Plus, who are “they” that say roiv are goyim? Is tumah botel b’roiv?August 15, 2011 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #800161
it seems to be a concensus f kohanim i know and when such an exhibit appeared in toronto where i there was an effort by rabonim to inform the kohanim. i dont get whyAugust 15, 2011 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #800162
only Rebbi Shimon holds that a goy is not metamei b’ohel, the Chachomim argue.August 15, 2011 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #800163deiyezoogerMember
But if the remains are in a glass box with space of at least a tefach (aprx. 4″) between the body parts and the top cover then its considered a seperate ohel and should not be a problem.August 15, 2011 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #800164
A long time ago, I (a cohen) was considering med school. I contacted Rav Aharon Soleveitchik to ask what I could do about anatomy lab. He told me that I could be in the cadaver lab but not touch or move anything. He told me because of or Rov Goyim there was no worry of tumat ohel.
It could be that in some areas, like NYC metro, there are so many Jews that you cannot assume that there is not any tumat ohel (cadavers from Jews). I was not living in the NYC area at the time of that psak, so don’t know what he would have said in that case. Just raising the question/issue.August 15, 2011 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #800165seagul47Member
Kohanim do not look for a heter–they just don’t go. that’s all.
I know the wife of a Kohen who would not go “walking” (favorite sport of women) through a non-Jewish cemetery just “in case” she was pregnant with a boy.
I have a brother-in-law who is very careful about “body parts” in museums and won’t go and won’t let his sons.
Even non-frum Kohanim are careful about the halochos of not going to funeral homes and cemeteries.
If they are makpid, that is their z’chus. Hashem gave them a role and, with it, obligations. They take it seriously. Good for them.August 15, 2011 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #800166
thank you. so whta the dealAugust 15, 2011 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #800167
k thats not so smart. i dont think you get the issue. if cow is kosher then being makpid not to eat cow isnt praiseworthy- im sure youll agree its downright dumb.so. goyim arent mitaameh b’oihel- i believe thats how w we paskin. if so there is no halachic grounds for a kohen not to go in. and anonymous, roiv here isnt bassar vichalav. if roiv dead bodies are goyim then halachically the bodies in these exhibits will be assumed to be goyim.August 15, 2011 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #800168
toi: “goyim arent mitaameh b’oihel- i believe thats how w we paskin.”
as I said before, no. The Halacha is that they ARE metamei b’ohelAugust 15, 2011 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #800169
o k cool thanksAugust 16, 2011 4:57 am at 4:57 am #800170HaLeiViParticipant
Deiya, if there is no way out then the whole thing is Tamei.August 16, 2011 10:21 am at 10:21 am #800171welldressed007Participant
and if they are not really dead?August 16, 2011 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #800172StamperMember
Even non-frum Kohanim are careful about the halochos of not going to funeral homes and cemeteries.
Non-Frum? Really?August 16, 2011 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #800173MonseyFanMember
To MDG — There is a Tshuva written by Rav Moshe zt”l to Rav Shimon Schwab zt’L regarding kohanim and going to med school. Rav Moshe makes it very clear that it is forbidden.
Question for kohanim — I hear that its a problem going to the Liberty Science Center. Can anyone confirm this?August 16, 2011 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #800174YW Moderator-80Member
dont know why
perhaps a pride in being a Kohen
something akin to non frum Jews who keep Bris Milah or Yom KippurAugust 16, 2011 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #800175
the baalei mussar say that hte reason that certain mitzvos are kept by the frei ie pesach yom kippur milah and a few others is either because the frum keep it stringently and that makes a hashpa’ah (not the ‘them seeing it and getting a hashpa’ah, rather a haspa’a m’lima’aleh) so the frei do to. or its the actual ntrinsic kedusha of these specific mitzvos that saves the frei from abandoning them and draws them to these mitzvosAugust 16, 2011 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #800176
“To MDG — There is a Tshuva written by Rav Moshe zt”l to Rav Shimon Schwab zt’L regarding kohanim and going to med school. Rav Moshe makes it very clear that it is forbidden. “
I sure that Rav Aharon Soleveitchik knew about that teshuva. I think that teshuva of Rav Moshe was concerning actively participating in the anatomy lab, like doing the actual dissection, touching, etc.August 16, 2011 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #800177
you wouldnt need a tshuva for that. its a straight up issurAugust 16, 2011 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #800178
“you wouldnt need a tshuva for that. its a straight up issur “
It may appear that way, but situations in life are not always so simple. If it is clear that there is tumat ohel for an aino yehudi, then what was the question? Why would one great Rav ask another great Rav such a simple question? And why would such a simple teshuva be codified (by Rav Moshe himself) in a book of teshuvot if it’s that obvious?
Life is not that simple. It’s easy to pasken from behind a keyboard. I asked a Rav and got an answer.
See Yorah Deah 372:2, where he says that it is proper for a cohen to avoid walking over kevarim of goim. From his lashon (and also the Tur’s) it’s clearly not forbidden. Maybe not preferable.August 16, 2011 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #800180
ha i thought we paskened only bimaaga. sum1 else said i was wrong. on that hanochoh- with which i didnt see lihalachah- i said the shailah was pashut- which is the yeshivish way of saying the hanochoh was wrong.thats the hesbir behind my last postAugust 16, 2011 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #800181cherrybimParticipant
Rav Moshe zt”l and Rav Aharon Soleveitchik zt’l were first cousins.August 17, 2011 12:06 am at 12:06 am #800183
hello99 and Toi: See ???”? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?:?”? based on that, it clearly seems the mechaber saying it is “proper” means lifnim m’shuras hadin.
MDG: Rav Aharon Soloveitchik’s brother, Rav Yoshe Ber held it was assur.August 17, 2011 8:32 am at 8:32 am #800184
itch i already said i thought thats how we paskin.August 17, 2011 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #800186aries2756Participant
Why would anyone want to go see “real dead people”?August 17, 2011 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #800187zahavasdadParticipant
Why would anyone want to go see “real dead people”?
There is actually a cool exhibit at the Franklin Institute in Philly, there is also a Mummy in the metropolitan museum of Art and there is a mummy collection in the british museumAugust 17, 2011 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #800188
i dunno people are weird. i happen to have stumbled into one such exhibit recently.im a yisroel. and goyim find freaky things interestingAugust 17, 2011 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #800189
“MDG: Rav Aharon Soloveitchik’s brother, Rav Yoshe Ber held it was assur. “
There could be differences in the circumstances that brought a different psak, but they might hold the same. The following is my conjecture to reconcile:
1) Maybe Rav Yoshe Ber was opining for the NYC metro area, with more Jews and a much higher chance of real tumat ohel.
2) Maybe Rav Aharon actually would advise kohanim to avoid even goish meitim LicHatchila, but my question was already a bedieved – that I really wanted to do become a doctor. I did not ask him if I should go to med school to begin with.
BTW, I’m not a doctor, although I seriously thought about it long ago.August 18, 2011 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #800190
I concede, I made a mistake. Generally we do not follow Rabbi Shimon, and certainly not against the majority Chachomim
Halacha – Kohain
Submitted by anonymous Answered by Rav Peretz Moncharsh
Question: Is there a consesus that there is rabbinic tomas ohal for a non-jew or is there a disagreement among the rabbis on this?
Answer: The Gemorra brings a disagreement between Rebbi Shimon bar Yochai and the Chachomim if a dead goy creates tumas ohel, the Rambam Tumas Meis 1:13 rules that it does not.August 18, 2011 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #800191
accepted ,lolAugust 18, 2011 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #800192
While the Rambam holds that non-Jews are not Mitamei B’Ohel, Tosafos (Bava Metzia 114b at the top I believe; it might be 113b) says that he hold like the Chachamim over Reb Shimon. The Shulchan Aruch Paskens like Tosafos but makes it sound a little like a Chumra. (Rav Schachter is fond of quoting humorously the Macklokes between the Beis Yosef and Bach ere. The Beis Yosef says we can hold like the Rambam, especially because the Zohar agrees with him; the Bach responds that the Zohar is just R’ Shimon in the Gemara L’Shitaso. Jsut because he is quoted in 2 Seforim doesn’t give his opinion double weight.)
The accepted position of most is to be Machmir; though there are (rare) exceptions and Kullos given. As an interesting aside, the Avnei Neizer (I believe, not positive; might have my SHUTIM mied up) quotes a Ramban (Parshas Pinchas) that Kivrei Tzadikim are not Mitamei and therefore Kohanim should be allowed in the Ma’aras Hamachpeilah. One of answers given (I apologize, I do not recall by whom) is that Esav’s head is in the cave too.August 19, 2011 1:33 am at 1:33 am #800193
MDG: By circumstances, I’d lean towards your second theory. He was asked as a hypothetical so he would obviously answer l’chatchila.
hello99: So the mechaber’s “nachon” comes from Tosafos.August 20, 2011 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #800194
Both the Mechaber and Rema seem to hold that the Ikar haDin follows the Rambam’s lenient opinion, but it is proper to be machmir for Tosafos.August 21, 2011 2:54 am at 2:54 am #800195
See, we’re in agreement. *gasp* It can happen if we stick to halachos psukos.August 21, 2011 4:07 am at 4:07 am #800196
I wonder about a lot of mummy exhibits anyway. My knowledge of Taharos is nowhere near enough to say this with any degree of certainty, but I feel like a lot of exhibits are fine anyway. A lot of them have the mummies in sarcophagi or glass with a cubic Tefach between the mummies and the sarcophagus or glass. Therefore that should be an Ohel by itself and contain the Tum’ah. I never asked anyone about this so i could be completely wrong. If I am please point it out to me. Obviously each exhibit would have to be thoroughly researched but I feel like some would be okay to enter (not to mention entering anywhere in the museum).August 21, 2011 5:35 am at 5:35 am #800197Dr. DovvshteinMember
“Kohanim aren’t looking for a heter”
Why would someone look for a heter to go to a museum!?August 21, 2011 7:04 am at 7:04 am #800198
i have seen mummies in the open in a museum. the body, not a sarcophawhatevertheheckitscalledAugust 21, 2011 8:23 am at 8:23 am #800199
I said a lot. Of course there are exhibits with actual mummies lying on the floor. I just meant that many of the exhibits may not be a problem anyway.August 21, 2011 9:14 am at 9:14 am #800200RABBAIMParticipant
How can a kohain be a physician ( not just study to be) if he needs to be in a hospital setting and inevitably over time there will be Yidden who have died in the hospital and they for sure create Tumah!August 21, 2011 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #800201zahavasdadParticipant
Why would someone look for a heter to go to a museum!?
I dont know who here besides me goes to museums, but the Museum of Natural History and The Metropolitan Museum of Art in NY, The Franklin Institute in Philly and the British Museum in in London are truly fascinating .August 21, 2011 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #800202YW Moderator-42Moderator
Rabbaim, Yidden who die in a hospital create tumah but it doesn’t necessarily spread through the entire building. There are many complicated halachos about tumas ohel. That being said, you are correct that kohanim generally shouldn’t work in a hospital setting in places like NY and Israel where there will inevitably be Jewish corpses over time. But there are exceptional cases where the part of the building he is working in does not get tumah because of the layout of the building, where in the building people dies, etc. Also, to work in a hospital in a neighborhood that has very few Jews or to work in an office building where there are no seriously ill patients is another story. (Of course, getting through medical school without being mitamei is another story as well)August 21, 2011 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #800203haifagirlParticipant
I dont know who here besides me goes to museums, but the Museum of Natural History and The Metropolitan Museum of Art in NY, The Franklin Institute in Philly and the British Museum in in London are truly fascinating .
I love museums.August 21, 2011 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #800204
yay. i love cheese.August 21, 2011 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #800205HachamMember
Can a Kohein be a Hatzalah member, considering that will place him in hospitals with the deceased often?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.