December 30, 2010 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #723318tzippiMember
Kapusta says: Most non-Jewish stores won’t have CY cheese on sale.
Maybe most won’t, but all it takes is one in the frum community.December 30, 2010 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #723319gavra_at_workParticipant
It is the norm for areas OOT with large supermarkets with a “Kosher section” to have a large selection, including CY.December 30, 2010 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #723320Sam l AmMember
Is there any reason to treat a supermarket with Kol Isha running any differently than a supermarket with an improperly dressed model running around? Once we accept recorded erva is erva, how is one erva different than another?December 30, 2010 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #723321tomim tihyeMember
Sam: My guess: unlike eyes, ears are not mentioned at Lo Sasuru, perhaps suggesting the power of eyes over ears.December 30, 2010 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #723322
tomim: Why do you assume there is a difference? Is there any source to indicate there is any difference?December 30, 2010 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #723323bymeidelMember
about aveilus- when my uncle was in aveilus his rav told him that he could listen to music to help him fall asleep as he could not fall asleep without music.December 30, 2010 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #723324tomim tihyeMember
Cedarhurst: Why are eyes specified and not ears- “asher atem zonim achareihem”?December 30, 2010 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #723325
tomim: Is there halachicly a difference between one erva and the other?December 30, 2010 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #723326
What if someone is running around with their hair (gasp) uncovered? Did you ever consider leaving? Good. You didn’t have to. The Gemara specifically says that if there isn’t another route, you can pass by the spot where women are washing their laundry, although they roll up their sleeves in the process. In fact, how do you know that you cannot pass by if the scene is worse than that, when there is no other way? The only answer is that you know yourself that it would be unavoidable for you to pay attention to the bizarre scene, whereas in the first case you don’t have to pay attention, and when you are not going there for fun you aren’t entertaining the concept in your mind.December 30, 2010 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #723327Sam l AmMember
The Gemara specifically says that if there isn’t another route, you can pass by the spot where women are washing their laundry, although they roll up their sleeves in the process.
Does the Gemorah say these women rolled it up uncovering erva (i.e. above the elbow) or just rolled it up higher than usual but not showing any erva? If these women weren’t showing erva (in public no less), then you brought a bad comparison.
Secondly, using your logic you could equally apply it to permitting going to a restaurant where they have improperly clad woman serving as waitresses.
And how is it avoidable from hearing the erva (kol isha) in the first case? Even without paying attention you hear it; in the second case, by passing an improper scene you have better control in not looking at the erva, than you have in not hearing erva.December 30, 2010 11:13 pm at 11:13 pm #723328
As for your first question, the Gemara says that if you had another way to go and you chose to travel that way, you are a Rasha. Obviously, we are talking about what is Assur to see.
And, to your second point, if you have to go there, then it would apply there, too. If, however, you had other places or options and you chose this one, that would be the Issur that the Gemara was talking about.
You differentiate between a view on the side and an inevitable sound. The distinction is true, but we don’t find such an Issur. Keep in mind that the original Din of Kol Isha is found by Brachos and Krias Shma. The point of having another way is that you specificaly chose this way, and you are conscious about the fact that you went down such a road. If you had no other way, than the problem doesn’t exist, it is not an Oness. The Gemara does not say that you have to be going there for a very important reason. The main issue is the fact that you know that you chose to go purposely that way.
I was only trying to differentiate beween your magnanimous example of a terribly inappropriately dressed someone, there to catch your attention. To that I responded that it doesn’t compare to the classic Hetter of Leka Darka Achrina, being that it is an aggressive, rather than passive, Erva.
This is all in pure Svara. In actual Psak, a Rov would most likely be Metzaref the fact that it is only a recording and you don’t know the person and it is usually low enough that if you’re not paying attention to it you won’t even notice it.December 31, 2010 4:18 am at 4:18 am #723330trachtgut2Member
i thought its only a problem if u see the women? or know who is singing…
if ur not getting any enjoyment from it and not focusing on it.. is it really a problen?December 31, 2010 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #723331
RuffRuff: So, accordingly, as long as there is another supermarket or grocery that has the food or products you need that does not play Kol Isha, then it would be forbidden to enter a supermarket that does play kol isha.December 31, 2010 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #723332
If it is cheaper in this place, that is still called Leka Darka Achrina. Remember, it doesn’t have to be Oness. The point is that you are there, and you know you there, for a purpose.
If indeed, there is another choice, just as good, then this Hetter wouldn’t apply. However, instinctively I think that a Rov would be Mattir based on everything else brought up here by others and myself.December 31, 2010 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #723333
RuffRuff: if I recall the gemorah correctly it says to go out of your way to avoid the women. So even if the non-KI grocery was less convenient, you would seemingly have to go there.December 31, 2010 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #723334
The Gemara says, “another way”. The Gemara doesn’t differentiate between going to learn Torah or going to the zoo. The idea is not that if you don’t have any choice then we’ll just have to let you go there. If that were the case, we would say, are you sure that you have to go in the first place. The main problem is that you could have gone another way, and you chose this one.January 2, 2011 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #723335Pashuteh YidMember
Mother In Israel, not having seen the sefer, but I am astounded that any sefer would recommend going up to a stranger and telling him to turn off his music. What kind of impression do you think that will make on a non-frum Jew?January 2, 2011 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #723336rabbiofberlinParticipant
cedarhurst asks ” is there a difference between one erva and another?” Actually, yes. and you can see this from the two “ervas’ that are discussed here- kol isha and uncovered hair.
The gemoro in megillah talks about different women and a man’s reaction to their names. It explicitly differentiates between these different women, saying that yes, things are relative when it comes to ‘soft’ ervas. The Aruch Hashulchan bemoans the habit (in his day) of women going with uncvoered hair, yet alllows krias shema to be said between it has become so common (uncovered hair) it does not rise to the din of erva.(by the way- he was criticized for this psak by the chassidim…). Basically, real ervas that leave no room for interpretation consist of uncovered parts of the body that should be covered. So- called ‘soft ervas” consist of singing, hair and the like that can be considered ‘subjective’ rather than “objective” (uncovered body parts mainly)January 2, 2011 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #723337oomisParticipant
ROB, as usual, always the voice of reason.
Telling anyone to turn off music (of which you disapprove) in a public place, is beyond chutzpahdig. And telling the WRONG person to do so, could end up being deadly. Who do we think we are? This country does not belong to one set of citizens. Unless something seriously encroaches on obscenity laws or disturbing the peace, we have no right to tell another person what type of music he or she may listen to in public.January 2, 2011 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #723338blueprintsParticipant
I’m confused did’nt mother in israel say that it’s the right of all citizens to request the volume be turned down (that’s the law)
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