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  • #599462

    lakewoodbt
    Member

    I believe that kollel life has become a luxury for the rich (sort of like vacations and maids), while the rest will have to work, after all the whole thing has become a business transaction anyway.

    #811021

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Disagree. Those who want to learn will stay in learning.

    #811022

    The Frumguy
    Participant

    When you say “luxury for the rich” I suppose you mean rich PARENTS.

    #811023

    midwesterner
    Participant

    hizaharu b’vnei aniyim shemeyhem tetze Torah.

    #811024

    yovel
    Member

    I also disagree. It’s not a luxury for the rich. It’s a luxury for the poor, who expect their (often poor) fathers-in-law to support them.

    #811025

    Having money certainly helps, but if you want to learn then you will do it no matter what. If you need to earn money nothing is stopping you from doing both.

    #811026

    lakewoodbt
    Member

    The reality is the kollel scene is an extension of the shidduch scene except here money counts more than looks.

    #811027

    oot for life
    Participant

    I wish I was zoche to be able to live the kollel life, but personally I felt I needed to provide a certain level of gashmius for my family. However, I know plenty of avrechem and their families who are moser nefesh to live the kollel life. They chose certain areas of life to be uncomfortable in, in order to do avodas Hashem.

    Sure there are people in Kollel who have both worlds, they did not have the same nisayon that I had. But to say only the rich are in kollel is a gross mistake. Perhaps rich in ruchnius.

    You don’t have to be rich to be in Kollel, only somech b’chelko

    #811028

    LITOVA
    Member

    you dont have to be rich to be in kollel, you just need to be rich to get married to a kollel boy!

    #811029

    yovel
    Member

    If a couple decides to forgo gashmius for the sake of learning, fine. The problem is that ALL bochurim are expected to go into kollel, regardless of their devotion to the cause, and the girl’s father has not choice but to pick up the tab (if he wants his daughter to get a shiduch). That’s just plain wrong.

    #811030

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    If a couple decides to forgo gashmius for the sake of learning, fine. The problem is that ALL bochurim are expected to go into kollel, regardless of their devotion to the cause, and the girl’s father has not choice but to pick up the tab (if he wants his daughter to get a shiduch). That’s just plain wrong.

    That is the way of life among Charaidim in Eretz Yisroel.

    #811031

    adorable
    Participant

    oot- great post and ur last line is awesome. you just have to be able to make do with what you do have and be happy. the working dont nec have more money.

    #811032

    Belev Echad
    Participant

    i know you dont mean any harm but these comments hurt. believe it or not, there actually are a nice ammount of kollel families out there who are NOT mooching off “rich/poor parents”. and just because you decide to try to live kollel, doesnt mean you gotta marry rich. im sick of people equating my husband learning with us living the golden road of daddy’s pocket. oot is right, please, give the sameach b’chelko crowd a little credit…

    #811033

    my son has been in Kollel many years now

    neither myself nor the Kallahs parents, nor the government have “picked up the tab”

    they are struggling, supporting themselves as they can, and loving every minute of it.

    i know quite a few in a similar situation

    some of them get Tzedakkah from brothers, sisters, parents, when they can.

    but it is very popular to make wholesale destructive criticisms of the families and the “system”

    i think it stems from envy, and perhaps some guilt, but im not sure.

    #811034

    Toi
    Participant

    i second that. im in kollel and by no means rich, nor are my parents or in laws. they do help us, but i know alot of my newly married friends who work whose parents help them too. we live in a machsan and couldnt be happier. i dont know how im going to pay my chashmal bill in a week and a half but you know what- when youre doing something you believe in for the right reasons these things dont worry you as much. and my wife is beyond happy. and our parents are proud. just because some bochurim have the wrong motivations, that doesnt make all yungerleit parasites. and working boys marry for money too. money is a taavah we all have, it just comes out in different circumstances.

    #811035

    Thank you, mod 80.

    I do find the general kollel-bashing fashion upsetting.

    Particularly since I see the low standard of living kollel families are content to live with here [Israel].

    Yeah, there may be exceptions who are ‘living it up’, but why not focus on the majority.

    #811036

    Sam2
    Participant

    I think (I hope) that the issue with those who are anti-Kollel is that a Kollel system that all or almost all of Klal Yisroel engages in will eventually collapse. Money has to come from somewhere. If the whole world Paskened that it was Assur to get a job then eventually all Jews will run out of money.

    #811037

    Peacemaker
    Member

    We’ve been hearing about the pending collapse for 50+ years already. It ain’t collapsing.

    #811038

    If you don’t get support, then how do you pay your bills/tuition etc. ?

    #811039

    Regesh
    Member

    – when youre doing something you believe in for the right reasons these things dont worry you as much.

    Well said Toi.

    A Rov once told me that girl seeking a kollel shidduch told him that she is willing to be moser nefesh to live a kollel life!

    The Rov told her that if is mesirus nefesh for her he’s not sure that she is ready for it.

    #811040

    springbok007
    Participant

    Learning Torah is tolui on learning le’shem mitzva and nothing elce. if we as a community have added contingencies then we have degraded Torah for the intrinsic value it has and the reason H-shem gave it to us. Just in case no one has noticed Elul started almost three weeks ago.

    #811043

    adorable
    Participant

    80- great post. you are 100% right!

    #811044

    One has to distinguish between the system in the U.S. and the system In Israel. In the U.S., where kollel families do not constitute a majority of the religious population and has it’s own sources of income (parents and proffessional working wives)in addition to government largess, the system cam probably continue for another two or three generations.

    The above does not address the hashkafic issue of whether or not an open ended commitment to learning without entering the work force is, in fact, the Torah ideal.

    #811045

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    With the large US Debt people want to cut entitlement spending

    Dont expect the largess by the US government to last much longer and unlike Israel which has some socialist backbone, the US has none

    #811046

    lakewoodbt
    Member

    Peacemaker that is exactly my point, the system is not collapsing for the rich or those who know how to game it, Feif Un cannot agree more with you, there should be kollel’s for those who want a job in chinuch, rabbonus and the like not for every Yakov, Moshe and Dovid.

    Mikehall I wonder the same thing, but this is one of the reasons why tuition is expensive is the working parents pay for their and the kollel guys kids and the there are less resources left. Again I want their to be rabbonim and rebbeim for the next generation and there are people I sincerely believe SHOULD be in kollel since it would be a waste of their talents if not, however this is maybe 10-15% of the people the rest are just not capable.

    #811047

    Peacemaker
    Member

    Even our poor today are living a much richer lifestyle than our rich 150 years ago. So if we live a little less richly we can continue the Torah/Kollel lifestyle indefinitely be”h.

    #811048

    Sam2
    Participant

    The Gemara in Chagiga (6b) says Hakadosh Baruch Hu cries over “someone who can learn but doesn’t and someone who can’t learn but does”. It is our responsibility to realize where we fall and what we should be doing with our lives. Everyone should learn as much as possible. Whether “as much as possible” means the current system, especially in Eretz Yisrael… let’s just say I have my doubts.

    #811050

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    i think it stems from envy, and perhaps some guilt, but im not sure.

    Envy here. I would love to be in Kollel.

    #811051

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Mr 80: Out of curiosity, how does your Kollel child pay tuition?

    #811052

    i dont know

    i never asked him.

    #811053

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    i dont know

    i never asked him.

    Good answer, not to pry. I was just curious if he had found something that I missed.

    #811054

    okay

    i wasnt being evasive though

    i dont discuss too much with him other than Divrei Torah and the anyklach

    #811055

    Peacemaker
    Member

    M80: Why don’t you discuss other issues than that?

    #811056

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    okay

    i wasnt being evasive though

    i dont discuss too much with him other than Divrei Torah and the anyklach

    That is why it is a good answer. It is never good for the parents/ in-laws to pry.

    #811057

    i think gavra answered your question

    #811058

    aposhitermaidel
    Participant

    80- kol hakavod to your children as they are the exception to the kollel rule in terms of not taking govt money.

    Most older kollel families I know are living off of the US govt. While I truly believe in the kollel lifestyle (having B”H lived it for 15 years without any parental or govt support) the way it is currently done is not the correct way in my opinion.

    The US govt does not have to pay between $1000-$1500 for a kollel families food and probably the same or more for both their insurance(Medicaid) and HUD. That is not what these programs are made for.

    They are made for families where the parents are looking fr work but are unable to find it.

    It should not be a way of life and certainly not a chossen and kallah’s plan on how they are going to live.

    It should be a Bidi Eved and not a Lichatchila. And I say that for those that are on the programs legally and not the ones who are getting HUD for homes owned by relatives (which is totally illegal but very widespread)

    What I really wonder is how many of these kollel couples would still be learning if all govt programs disappeared?

    As for parental support – it is a beautiful thing to want to contribute to your child’s Torah learning but should not be expected.

    If you want a life of kollel – you can prepare for it by getting an education and anticipating a lot of hard work.

    I’m not saying that it s not worth it because it is but you shouldn’t expect to be able to do it by working a half day and having your summers free.

    With the younger couples I would say that a lot more of the girls today are being responsible and going to college so that they can make it on their own.

    Of course all is from Hashem – but we do have to do our hishtadlus!

    #811062

    lakewoodbt
    Member

    Hopefully a real Republican unlike Bush will come and get rid off all these useless fraudulent programs and then we will see who stays committed to the lifestyle. What could be better one might ask all of Nissan, Tishrei, Av off and no testing for learning going on. No need for commutes, dealing with an irritable boss.

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