Kollel Life in Eretz Yisroel is More Difficult and a Greater Sacrifice than Army

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  • #618280
    Joseph
    Participant

    An excellent post by “lilmod ulelamaid” buried on another thread that deserves its own, explaining why Kollel life in Eretz Yisroel is much more difficult and a far greater sacrifice than joining the army. And this is all aside from the much greater protection Limud Torah provides to Eretz Yisroel and its inhabitants than being an army frat. And not even addressing the spiritual dangers of enlisting in the Israeli Army and their full-time efforts to indoctrinate their recruits into becoming chilonim as well as the rampant immorality prevalent in their ranks.

    ================================================================

    by Lilmod Ulelamaid

    gaw: “Kollel, especially in EY, is the easy way out.”

    LuL: kollel in EY is definitely not the easy way out!! You may not agree with it, but it is definitely not easy. Learning in Kollel in EY means resigning yourself to a life of poverty and struggle. People do it because they feel it is important and they are willing to sacrifice for Am Yisrael.

    gaw: “Going with the herd is certainly the easy way out. Especially in EY where the government supports the learners, and the monetary expectations are much lower, it is easier to be in Kollel than to fight the tide, leave Kollel (with all of the issues with the Army that come along with that choice) and then find a job in a society that doesn’t want to employ Charaidim. I agree with Joseph on this one, that it is much easier to be a Yeraim Jew outside of the state of Israel.”

    LuL: Sorry, but I have to correct you on this one. There are many misperceptions about what goes on in EY, and about what’s involved in deciding between Kollel and army. I have lived in EY for many years and am very familiar with the issues and the challenges involved in these decisions. I know from personal family experience how DIFFICULT it is to decide to defer the army to go to Yeshiva. I have a family member who was was not able to live up to the challenge and gave in to the pressure from his mother who was not able to deal with the financial challenges involved in deferring army service.

    It is very DIFFICULT to live in EY and not go to the army. If you don’t go to the army, you lose out on many rights and much financial aid from the government. You do not make any money while you are learning, and you can’t go to work. You are basically doomed to a life-long poverty.

    If you do go the army, the army supports you while you are doing your army service. In some cases, they even give you more than enough spending money so that you can save it to pay for college afterwards (as one of my family members did). In many cases, they train you in a profession for free, and as soon as you finish your army training, you can get a top job in your field (as another family member did). I believe that there are also many other benefits that one who goes to the army gets.

    Deferring army to go to Yeshiva is not going against the tide! It is very hard to live in a country like Israel which is constantly at war and where going to the army is the norm and so much is dependent on going to the army, and not go to the army! Anyone who thinks that it is easy knows nothing about the realities of living in EY today!

    I had a brother who could have been a Rosh Yeshiva. He was very Frum and very into learning. He wanted to learn, but my mother pressured him to go to the army because she was worried about money, and his Dati Leumi Rosh Yeshiva told him to go (after promising me that he would tell him not to go). He thought he had to listen to his Rav, so he went to the army, and he is now completely chiloni. He was supported by the government while he was in the army being taught computer programming for free. He got a great job as soon as he finished the army before he even started college. He makes a lot of money today.

    I have a sister who did sheirut leumi. She was supported by the government and given enough money to help her pay for college. She went to college and got a great job and now makes a lot of money, but is not so Frum (depending on how you define Frum -see previous threads – basically, she does not completely keep halacha).

    I have friends whose husbands are big masmidim and Talmidei chachamim and they live on almost nothing but bitachon and are extremely “mistapek b’muat.” Even with being “mistapek b’muat” to an extreme that you can’t imagine, they have to have a lot of bitachon every month that they will make it through the month somehow.

    Meanwhile, I see that people like my siblings are rolling in money.

    So don’t try to tell me that Kollel is the easy way out!!!

    I do agree though that someone who learns has more Olam Hazeh, but I do not agree that it is the easy way out!!

    #1176784
    Joseph
    Participant

    “I agree with Joseph on this one, that it is much easier to be a Yeraim Jew outside of the state of Israel.”

    gaw: I don’t recall ever making that kind of claim. I think you’re confusing me with akuperma’s thoughts on this.

    #1176785
    kerachemav
    Participant

    Some of this is true, but what about the fact that people in the army are risking their lives? Many soldiers are killed/captured/wounded, that is a sacrifice people who avoid the army do not make.

    #1176786
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Some of this is true, but what about the fact that people in the army are risking their lives? Many soldiers are killed/captured/wounded, that is a sacrifice people who avoid the army do not make.”

    That is true, and my post was not intended to belittle the sacrifices made by chayalim, and I am “makir tov” to them as well (even though I personally feel that they would be helping the country more by learning, and I think that the Yeshiva Bochurim are doing more for me, I realize that they don’t realize that/feel differently/can’t be learning/perhaps we do need some people in the army to protect the country physically, etc., and that they are putting their lives in danger to help Am Yisrael.

    However, the sacrifices made by those who choose to learn instead of going to the army often go unnoticed and people assume they are “taking the easy way out” when in fact, the sacrifices they are making may in fact be much greater.

    A few points to keep in mind when comparing the sacrifices made:

    1. Not all chayalim put their lives in danger. Only the ones in combat units do. I don’t know numbers, but MANY chayalim are not in combat units and are not putting their lives in danger.

    2. In Israel, most or much of the danger from the enemies affects everyone equally (bombs, scuds, terrorist attacks, etc.)

    3. If you grow up in Israeli non-Chareidi society, for the most part you don’t WANT to NOT go to the army. If you don’t go to the army, you are not a MAN. Boys who are not accepted into the army are not happy about it and TRY to get in (I have personally known boys like that who were VERY upset about not getting into the army or not getting into a combat unit).

    4. It is very difficult to compare one type of difficulty to another, and I know that this is going to cause a lot of back-and-forth arguments (sigh), but it does seem to me pretty clear actually that not having a parnassah is one of the greatest challenges that there is, and most people would willingly put their lives in danger to earn a parnassah if they had to. We see all the time that this is so – in the olden days, people worked in dangerous mines (I think – I don’t know history so well, so I may need help from fellow posters on this one, but I am sure that people have always been willing to put their lives in danger and do whatever it took to earn a parnassah).

    The Aruch HaShulchan in the halachos of bentching mentions that not having a parnassah is the greatest difficulty that one can have.

    5. One of the MK’s from a non-Chareidi party said that there are three services that Israelis perform for the country:

    a) army service, b) working c) Limud Torah.

    She said that of the three, Limud Torah is the hardest since unlike army service, it does not merely last for 3 years but rather for many,many years,maybe an entire life. Also, unlike most jobs which are only for 8 hours a day, learning is for the entire day. Learning involves the most intense on-going commitment of any of the 3 types of service.

    6. I have heard that it is REALLY difficult to learn all day. My impression is that it is much harder than going to the army. This may be hard for an American to understand (especially someone who is not learning all day). On the one hand, if you haven’t tried to do it, it is hard to understand how hard it is to learn all day. On the other hand, if you are not from Israel, going to the army sounds like the hardest thing in the world. I am not saying it is not hard, but if you grow up with it, it is not AS hard as it sounds. You do not have to be as self-motivated as you do when you learn.

    7. Living in Israel, not going to the army IS going against the tide. While it is true, as someone pointed out in another thread, that if you are part of Chareidi society, in a certain sense, deferring army service is not going against the tide, at the same time, in a certain sense it is (which is why I initially said so and why I still stand by that). Even if you are part of a Chareidi society, you are still part of the country as a whole. You are very aware of the fact that the country is at war, and you hear about chayalim being killed, and you are aware that they are fighting (physically) and you are not. You are very aware of what the rest of the country thinks of you for not fighting (physically). You have to go down to the draft deferment office on a regular basis and prove that you are learning so that you don’t have to go to the army. You can’t get a job because you didn’t go the army. You are despised and looked down at as a draft dodger by many, including many religious people. Posters in the Coffee Room of Yeshiva World write posts for the entire world to see saying that you are taking the easy way out because you don’t want to go to the army. You don’t receive the many benefits that the government gives those who go to the army. Instead of being supported by the government, you have to pay the government money every month from the time you turn 18 even though you are in Yeshiva and not earning any money. The government holds you prisoner and will not allow you to leave the country even for a visit without their permission (which they will only grant for specific reasons and for a specified period of time).

    Yet you are willing to make these sacrifices because you know it is for Am Yisrael’s own good.

    8. Keep in mind that even if you want to claim that as an individual in the Chareidi world, someone who defers the army is not going against the tide, the Chareidi world itself didn’t come out of nowhere. The Chareidi world had to fight against the tide and is continually fighting for its very existence. The Chareidi world started out as a tiny, powerless entity, and is continually fighting for its very existence against the Secular Zionist Government who is in control and much more powerful and is continually trying to destroy it. They have only managed to succeed in maintaining their community through their constant vigilance and vigor in defending their right to exist and not be swallowed up by the Secular Zionist society that is trying to pressure them to assimilate. If an individual in Chareidi society feels that it is easy (which I can’t imagine to be the case) to learn and defer army service, it is only because the Chareidi society has been fighting very hard against the tide to create a society like that – a society in which it is possible for a boy to grow up and learn Torah and not assimilate into the secular majority.

    Please Note: there is something a bit troublesome about arguing about who is sacrificing more than who. We all have to try to look at each other positively and appreciate what each one is doing for Am Yisrael and not be trying to prove who is better. I would really appreciate it if people would make sure that this thread does not turn into a sinas chinam/motzi shem ra thread. I am not trying to belittle the sacrifices that ANYONE makes for Am Yisrael or find the worst in anyone. My sole purpose was to defend those people who are defending the country by learning Torah against those who spoke negatively about them. Everyone is aware of the sacrifices made by chayalim; the sacrifices and contributions made by Bnei Torah are harder for many to see, so it is important to emphasize them. I personally feel (as do Gedolei Yisrael) that if one wants to give to Am Yisrael, he can give the most by learning Torah, and that we have to show the utmost respect and hakaras hatov to those who learn. On the one hand, through learning, one can do the most for Am Yisrael, so those who learn are doing the most for us. On the other hand, it IS harder for most people to see it, so it has to be emphasized. At the same time, I respect those people who feel they are contributing by serving in the army and/or working and I have hakaras hatov to them as well.

    Regardless of who you feel is sacrificing the most and whether or not you agree with my points, that is not the most important issue anyhow. Those who decide to learn don’t make the decision to do so because they think it involves more sacrifices. They do so because they feel they are helping Am Yisrael the most this way, regardless of whether it involves more sacrifices or less sacrifices. It leads to less sacrifices; that is why they do it, and that is what counts.

    Again, I beg of all of you, do not turn this into a Sinas Chinam thread. Most of you are neither learning full-time or serving in the army. You are not helping Am Yisrael in either of these ways. If you want to help Am Yisrael, if you want to make sure that one less chayal is killed, that one more mother does not have to sit shiva for her teen-age son, you can do your part by refraining from Loshon Hara and Sinas Chinam. In that way, you can accomplish much, much more than all of the chayalim in the Israeli Army put together.

    Kesiva V’chasima Tova!

    #1176787
    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    Most soldiers are not combat and hence, unless there’s an all out war c”v, they not exposed to danger on an ongoing basis. B”H! And even regarding the combat soldiers, do we ask the tank crewman, “Why aren’t you in the paratroops or a pilot in the air force?” It’s an absurd question, because someone in one branch of the service clearly doesn’t have to also serve in another.Each person contributes to the national effort by doing his job. Even the cooks! The talmidei hayeshivos are also serving, even though they are not wearing uniforms. Just like Shabak and Mossad people contribute without wearing uniforms. So, the cooks, secretaries, and all the rest (some call them “jobniks”) are also not likely to c”v be killed, captured or wounded. Yet, no one claims they are not fulfilling their responsibilities. And so it is with the bnei hayeshivos.

    #1176788
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I am not going to get into the debate of Learning vs the Army

    HOWEVER if even ONE charedi insults a soldier, or does something like going partying in Eilat during bein Hazmanin, It severly damages the argument.

    Obviously charedi society is not monolithic, but they put forward the idea that they are monolithic. Obviously most people can tell the differnce between a secular jew who is a lawyer and has a wife and family and a secular jew who is an “alternative lifestyle” with tattos everyhwere. However the charedim themsevles do not distinguist between someone who is an illui and can learn 18 hours a day and someone who can barely learn 2 hours a day

    #1176789
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That’s all in your perception, ZD. Who says individual chareidim don’t want to be individuals within a broader society?

    It is no more fair to say what you did than for me to similarly say that if one person insults a talmid chochom, that harms the argument for everyone on the other side.

    #1176790
    kerachemav
    Participant

    The main problem a lot of people have with Kollel vs army service is not that people learn all day and don’t serve. It’s that a system has been created where serving is Assur and learning all day is mandatory.

    I lived in Charedi society in Israel for many years, and even though not all soldiers are attacked and abused by all segments of Charedi society, there is a strong stigma and they are looked down upon.

    Yair Lapid was guilty of bad choice of words when he used the phrase ‘sharing the burden’ implying army service was a burden and Kollel was not.

    However, it is still true that those who do not wish to learn all day and want to serve should be allowed to do so. People talk so much about how terrible the IDF is for religious boys, but in my personal experience, far more people I know went OTD by hanging around outside the Mir during Seder because they couldn’t be bothered learning but the system they went through forced them too, then people serving in religious units.

    #1176791
    akuperma
    Participant

    If the offered the conscripts the option of a kollel-style life (sleeping in doors, eating most meals at home, with a wife, not getting shot at, not needing to “jump” at a moment’s notice, etc.), I suspect most would choose it. Indeed, the fact that Israel is one of the few country’s to use conscription suggests that. That being the case, if a kollel person is a zionist they are being a hypocrite, and the fact that someone feels the need to justify a kollel life relative to the army suggests the person is a zionist (i.e. one who favors having “forever” war with the Arabs in order to give persons of Jewish descent political power). For someone who regards zionism as apikurses, and is willing to accept an autonomous non-sovereign Jewish community with a non-Jewish state as an alternative to the zionism, there would never be a need to justify refusing to serve in the army.

    #1176792
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Let the Charedi leadership call out those who throw things or insult who insult the soldiers. Silence = Agreement

    it would go along way to ending the debate if soldiers were not looking down upon or worse

    #1176793
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I glanced at the responses to my post. One glance was enough. Please, if you care at all about Am Yisrael, reread this paragraph and stop doing things that lead to more chayalim and other yidden being killed:

    “Again, I beg of all of you, do not turn this into a Sinas Chinam thread. Most of you are neither learning full-time or serving in the army. You are not helping Am Yisrael in either of these ways. If you want to help Am Yisrael, if you want to make sure that one less chayal is killed, that one more mother does not have to sit shiva for her teen-age son, you can do your part by refraining from Loshon Hara and Sinas Chinam. In that way, you can accomplish much, much more than all of the chayalim in the Israeli Army put together.”

    #1176794
    yichusdik
    Participant

    LU, I don’t agree with several of your conclusions but almost all of your points have some merit and are made in an articulate manner without rancor. That’s pretty rare in the CR when talking about these subjects. Kol hakavod.

    I do have two issues with what you wrote.

    Considering the way that you describe Torah learning and army service as meritorious in their own rights, I imagine that one could find an ideal solution in a system not too dissimilar from the existing hesder system. There are indeed a few Yeshivot somewhat to the right of the usual dati tziyoni types which participate in such a modified program. I wonder, could there be any solution which would bring more achdus, more good hashpooh on Israeli society in general, more understanding than something like this?

    My second issue is my only serious criticism of your post. You speak of a Secular Zionist government trying to destroy the chareidi world. Really? There are more chareidim, receiving significant government money and resources although not at the highest levels, commensurately proprtional to reductions elsewhere in Israeli budgets; more yeshivos in Israel (and significant public funding for many of them) and more people studying Torah in them than at any point since maamad har sinai; There are government funded streets, utilities, fire services, police, infrastructure, energy, water resources, insurance, pensions, public transportation, all of which the Chareidi tzibur makes use of every day. There is significant though incomplete observance of halacha regarding shabbos, kashrus and mikvaos, not to mention civil defense and disaster preparedness.

    When one is out to “destroy” something, as you claim, it is absurd to do so by funding, protecting, supporting and facilitating it.

    Moreover, your contention depends on a fundamental conceit, that there is intent to destroy and a rationale for doing so. Frankly, if you bother to speak to all but the most radical secular ideologues (who have been out of government for more than 20 years in any case), they are not motivated to hate or change or destroy the chareidi velt.

    You think they stay up at night figuring out ways to harm chareidim? They have many other things to think about, some of which are important, like how to earn a living, how to afford an apartment, or how to be safe in a crazy region, how their children are doing or how they are going to pay to fix the air conditioner that just broke; some of which are not important but entertaining or amusing, like who won kochav nolad, how to get to the beach tomorrow, or what that new restaurant is like. They care about responsibilities and privileges that affect Chareidim and they feel should be equitable, and they care about their individual rights being respected and infringed, but beyond that they frankly think about you way less than you imagine. And the vast majority of secular Jews are simply not ideological.

    The threatened existence or “destruction” of the Chareidi velt by “di andere”, the Tziyonim (most of whom these days are traditional or religious, BTW) or anyone else aside from those who threaten ALL Jews and Israelis is an artificial construct, a straw man. Why it is used and who benefits I will leave to you to determine for yourself.

    #1176795
    Joseph
    Participant

    If it is legitimate to conscript people into the army to protect the State, even if the conscripted doesn’t wish to serve and even though the army already has more than enough enlistees and manpower to fully man the armed forces even without a single Chareidi serving, it is certainly far more appropriate and correct to conscript the entire populace into doing Beis Medrash Service, for Limud Torah provides Eretz Yisroel a much greater protection than army service.

    So before the government drafts any Chareidim they will need to establish Beis Medrash conscription among the Chilonim. The Chiloim, too, need to share the burden of Torah service. It shouldn’t be left exclusively on Chareidim’s shoulders.

    #1176796
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You think they stay up at night figuring out ways to harm chareidim? They have many other things to think about, some of which are important, like how to earn a living, how to afford an apartment, or how to be safe in a crazy region, how their children are doing or how they are going to pay to fix the air conditioner that just broke; some of which are not important but entertaining or amusing, like who won kochav nolad, how to get to the beach tomorrow, or what that new restaurant is like. They care about responsibilities and privileges that affect Chareidim and they feel should be equitable, and they care about their individual rights being respected and infringed, but beyond that they frankly think about you way less than you imagine. And the vast majority of secular Jews are simply not ideological.

    +1

    #1176797
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “You think they stay up at night figuring out ways to harm chareidim?”

    Most do not, however you have partiers like Yesh Atid which absolutely was doing that and you see the number of seats they got, so there is a very significant amount of Chilonim and unfortunately those in the US who definitely do plot and agitate against chareidim.

    #1176798
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    I feel like LuL is pushing the standard Chareidi (false) narrative that going to the army is comparable to going off the derech. Honestly, when it comes to making choices in life, in my opinion for a Chareidi born and raised in Eretz Yisroel it’s a far easier choice to choose to stay in kollel than join the army. It’s not difficult at first, free healthcare, cheap housing, and you can get by on the stipend when you only have 0-1 kids. It’s later in life that gets difficult.

    So, I’ll have to disagree with nearly this entire subject. While in the long run, in general it may be more difficult to live as a full-time kollel family, but for a Chareidi Yeshiva bachur/maidel to make that decision at 22 it’s almost frighteningly simple.

    Lemme just end with a story.

    A few years back a meshulach from Eretz Yisroel came to my house. He was American, and ran a kollel in a major Chareidi city. He talked about the difficulties and the cost and the Chedarim, etc. Then he brought up the government funding cuts and I had to interrupt him. I basically told him “Look, I don’t know what the government has been giving you before or what they pay you now. But I do know that it’s far far more than anyone in the US gets. Did you know that I have to pay over $20,000 just to send one son and one daughter to Yeshiva/Bais Yaakov pre-school? Please don’t appeal with that line to anyone else, as you’ll find very little sympathy.”

    #1176799
    dbrim
    Participant

    Lilmode ulilamaid – I could not agree with you more. I think people living in Chutz LaAretz have difficulty understanding the nuances of learning in kollel/army service in E”Y especially because they currently have so many more options. My nephews living in America come to E”Y to learn in Chareidi yeshivas for 2,3,4 years while accumulating college credits. They can then go to Touro or other programs to finish their degrees and then go on for an M.A. Our sons in E”Y do not have these options – learning full time is the only option – working even part time will result in being drafted. The army is a spiritually challenging place for Chareidi bochurim, even in Nachal Chareidi – most Chareidi parents in Chutz Laaretz wouldn’t dream of placing their 18(!)-year-old sons in this kind of environment – but this is the only option for any chareidi buchor/avreich that can’t or doesn’t learn full time. The result – no college education, no profession, at best a minimum-wage job, etc. Lest we forget, 85% of Chareidi women work so please do not view Chareidim as parasites – we pay taxes, too. And some of us do value the mesirus nefesh of the chayalim – I’m not sure why someone here proposed that that is hypocritical. We need the Lomdei Torah fully emersed in learning and the hishtadlus of an army. If we could only learn to appreciate each other’s contributions…

    #1176800
    writersoul
    Participant

    “if a kollel person is a zionist they are being a hypocrite”

    Really? Why? (I’d better tell the post-hesder kollel people I know, as well as the friend whose husband is in a charedi hesder yeshiva…)

    LUU- I think someone might have pointed this out on the other thread, but I think that you’re coming at this from a slightly different angle here. I am NOT going to make any statements on who’s right here- completely above my pay grade- but the fact is that for many charedi Israelis, kollel is the easy way out, in much the same way as that for many DL and chiloni Israelis, the army is the easy way out. Communal life is structured around it- communal expectations are focused on it- familial hopes are centered on it. A child is, through their upbringing, given a certain set of steps on how to succeed in the world, a bunch of implicit or explicit expectations which they are expected to adhere to. For a charedi boy, that expectation is to live the poverty-stricken life of a kollel yungerman, but at the same time to receive that communal praise and internal satisfaction. A DL boy is expected to serve in the army, which includes risk of serious physical and emotional injury, but in turn he will receive the praise and affection of the community for that. Either one switching to the other is at risk of serious alienation and abandonment, though we hope it wouldn’t happen. First, they lose the communal support which comes with the path that they grew up with- something pretty important to all of us. There may even be outright resentment- the soldiers who have been attacked in chassidishe shtibelach or the newly minted kollel yungerman who is blasted as a shirker- and even potential loss of family support. So in its own way, each is extremely hard, and to put it down to one or the other being empirically harder is virtually impossible. And, in general, charting a new path and making a decision to do something different and difficult is always going to be incredibly challenging. So while I don’t deny that much of what you say about the difficulties inherent in kollel life is true, there’s also that other angle, even without examining the positives or negatives in either lifestyle.

    #1176801
    Joseph
    Participant

    “Look, I don’t know what the government has been giving you before or what they pay you now. But I do know that it’s far far more than anyone in the US gets.”

    That’s patently false. Aside from in the U.S. the government offers to fully pay for children’s schooling (choosing to decline the offer is the citizen’s choice), the U.S. also provides much more in food stamps, WIC, Medicaid, welfare, Section 8, HEAP, child care, and what not than the sums given in Israel.

    #1176802
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Joseph

    Israel is a socialist country, the US is not.

    Kupat Cholim is a much more comprehensive insurance than Medicaid

    #1176803
    Joseph
    Participant

    Medicaid was only one of over half a dozen programs I mentioned.

    #1176804
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its not the only one where Israel gives more than the US. the US is a very stingy country when it comes to government handouts

    #1176805
    Joseph
    Participant

    Israel is stingy in cash, food and housing benefits they give to the poor. The U.S. is more generous.

    #1176806
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Funny, because the kollel people I know who live in the US say the reason they live there and not in EY is because they wouldn’t be able to manage in EY, much as they would love to be in EY! And the Kollel people I know in EY struggle much more than the ones in the US! In the US, you never have to worry about food, because you can live on food stamps if you qualify. In general, people in EY have way less money and have a much harder time financially. That’s why so many people from EY go to the US to collect money; you never find Americans collecting money in EY!

    Regarding the government cuts, for many people, that was the money that was paying for food for their babies. The government literally took food from babies’ mouths, without giving anyone an opportunity to find another way to feed them!

    #1176807
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Joseph: What <i>you</i> are saying is patently false. I suggest you speak to some American full-time learners to find out what they get through federal programs.

    WIC gives formula, milk, orange juice, cereal and little else and stops when the child turns three. In contrast, Israel has Tipat Chalav.

    There’s no socialized healthcare in the US. If you’re not insured (which can be hundreds of dollars a month) any medical problem is prohibitively expensive. Medicare is terrible and pays a percentage of any hospital bill. The Israeli system pays for virtually all of any medical costs, from hospital stays, to doctors visits, to any required drugs. Having a single baby in the US can set a family back thousands of dollars in the first month, even on Medicare.

    Food stamps and Welfare are also mirrored in similar programs in Israel. Section 8 is a joke, either you go on a 10 year waiting list for a tiny apartment near a frum community, you move in with gangsters next door to you, or you do something illegal and probably assur to cheat your way in. There’s no Kiryat Sefer apartment for sale for 90,000 dollars.

    Then there’s cost of living which is much higher in the US than Israel. One example is transportation. Either you live in an expensive metropolitan area (i.e. Brooklyn) or you buy a car. There’s no other option.

    Not to mention that parents pay nearly nothing for tuition compared to the US. The government pays nothing to US kollels, all the funding is through tzedaka. Ma she’ein kein in Israel where every yungerman gets a stipend. To live full time in kollel without outside support in Eretz Yisroel is very very difficult, nobody is denying that. But it doesn’t hold a candle to the difficulties of doing it in the US.

    #1176808
    Joseph
    Participant

    Again, you’re latching unto one of over half a dozen programs I mentioned. Food Stamps goes from age 0 through 120, child and adult. The Israeli equeivelent of Food Stamps is notably less generous than the U.S. version. Medicaid is entirely free. And other programs. Health insurance, including free medicaid and other subsidized healthcare in the U.S. (Child Health Plus, etc.) pays the entire cost of childbirth.

    And PELL as well as State programs (TAP in NYS) pay a lot of money to Beis Medrash/Kollel.

    The bottom line is that full time learners in the US are financially better off and receive more government aid than their counterparts in Israel. And, unlike Israel, the Americans who learn instead of going to the army are not legally prohibited by the State from working in the future until age 27 – as Israel forces poverty by making it illegal for them to work.

    #1176809
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The reason people go to the US for collecting is that there are richer people there. While most are not rich in the US, there are some really rich Gevering who dont exist in Israel. There is no Rechner in Israel. those people live in the US

    #1176810
    Joseph
    Participant

    zd: Is that why they come from EY to shuls all over America to collect from the average run of the mill American baal habuss?

    #1176811
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    There is no Rechner in Israel. those people live in the US

    There are plenty of Gevirim in Eretz Yisroel, but they will tell the Meshulach to get a job, and that the Gevir refuses to pay for his daughter’s apartment even if she can’t get married without it.

    Or the Gevir has better things to spend money on. For example, the Rebbes of Belz and Gur are major landowners and extremely wealthy, but spend it on their Chassidus and save for the next generation, not the little guy.

    #1176812
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Joseph: I’m “latching on to a half dozen programs” because those pretty much cover everything. Pell Grants only work for max maybe 5 years. Food Stamps pays for stuff, granted, but the Israeli equivalent takes you just as far. Stuff in the US is just more expensive. Nothing in the US pays the entire cost of childbirth. And those that pay anything are notoriously difficult to get. In Israel if you’re a citizen it’s automatic. You have full healthcare coverage.

    “The bottom line is that full time learners in the US are financially better off and receive more government aid than their counterparts in Israel.”

    Shtuyos. It only looks that way because there are less American yungerleit and more gevirim. They get far less government aid than in Israel, but are generally a little better off because rich people fund their kollels so they can pay a bit better.

    “the Americans who learn instead of going to the army are not legally prohibited by the State from working in the future until age 27 – as Israel forces poverty by making it illegal for them to work.”

    Irrelevant and narischkeit. We are talking about people who choose to learn full time after marriage. 27 is about 5-6 years after marriage, long before any major financial burdens set in. Kollel yungerleit in Israel aren’t poverty stricken because they can’t work until 27, they’re poverty stricken because they choose not to work even after 27.

    #1176813
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Oh, and then there’s tuition. There’s always tuition. You’re ignoring it, but it’s the elephant in the room.

    #1176814
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The real Geverim in israel actually many times live in the US, because the tax laws are lower in the US. Mickey Arisol whose family owns Bank Hapoalim and owns the Miami Heat Basketball team and Carnival Cruise lines actually lives in Florida not Israel. His family was so weathy they got the israeli government to lower the taxes just for them as they threatend not to go back to israel and pay anything unless they were lowered

    #1176815
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Irrelevant and narischkeit. We are talking about people who choose to learn full time after marriage. 27 is about 5-6 years after marriage, long before any major financial burdens set in. Kollel yungerleit in Israel aren’t poverty stricken because they can’t work until 27, they’re poverty stricken because they choose not to work even after 27.

    In all fairness to Joe, you need to take into account the age that these children get married. If in Israel the child gets married at 17-18, by the time 27 rolls around the child may already have 8-9 children themselves.

    It is very similar to the inner city culture and how those who are teenage mothers have no ability to pull themselves out of poverty, even if they do “work”. Same here with teenage fathers who have no skills. By the time 27 hits it is too late to start learning what they need to get a job. Easier to stay in Kollel and ask others for help.

    #1176816
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Joseph: Seriously, what is your problem? Literally every thing you post to CR is either about how difficult it is to learn in kollel in Eretz Yisroel (while oozing contempt for those Israelis that don’t) or just blatant contempt for anyone who holds a job. Is there any purpose to what you’re saying?

    #1176817
    bklynmom
    Participant

    Those who commented on this post,, have you ever spent time or spoken with a frum young married who is pregnant & with two or more children at home and whose husband is in the army or in reserves?

    Well I have spoken and even spent time in Eleazar with such a group of women. Forget about the worry of your spouses safety and security, forget about doing all shopping, cooking, care taking, babysitting and combining this with a part time job – these women are completely overwhelmed, worried, and still the strongest branch on the tree.

    My assumption is that most of the commentators did not socialize or even connect with those torah families whose husbands are in the army, so you are CLUELESS!

    Two women had the EMT take them to the hospital since the husband did not return for the babies’ birth – many do not have parents, siblings or a support system surrounding them.

    Forget about money!!!! that’s an entirely different chapter, its called borrowing and overdrawing from the bank.. Workplace whether its a yeshiva, school or computer job of their husbands pay them a minute amount of money when he is in reserves and will his parnassah be available when he return, is a good question,

    During the last Gaza war, a friend’s daughter who lives in Ramot mentioned that during sirens – all the families went down to the shelter. This young lady’s husband was down in Gaza so each time she needed to get downstairs it was carrying 2 toddlers and an infant (Yes, neighbors were helping) & she mentioned that it is far quicker to descend to the shelter when you have a husband to help.

    You are TOTALLY unaware of their overwhelming ‘Mesirus Nefesh’ and they are not looking for your sympathy or pity for sure!!

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