Kollel – Talmud Torah Kneged Kulam

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  • #1177536
    Joseph
    Participant

    “But to say that bezman hazeh nobody should work…”

    You keep repeating this. Yet NOT ONCE do any of the OP’s say that.

    Please read them again.

    #1177537
    HIE
    Participant

    KOLLEL is the reason why i get so much tzedaka mail everyday. WHY do WE, WORKING PEOPLE, have to support kollel, its enough supporting our own families?? When someone is in kollel and there is no money he opens up a yeshiva with 10 guys. why do we need so many yeshivos??

    #1177538
    aryeh3
    Participant

    I would like to know the link of the source. To have such a site bookmarked would be nice. I tried Googling some of the quotes but it only returned YWN.

    #1177539
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    I think the problem with Kollel today is that it puts a stress on society at large, which puts pressure on others who want to support Kollel to do illegal things to keep up donations. No, its not everyone, but it happens. I wonder if taking money for learning that causes enough stress on the donor to steal is better than the kollel man learning part time and working part time.

    But I do agree, if someone voluntarily gives money to support Kollel and the man is learning properly, that is his job.

    #1177540
    Jothar
    Member

    Joseph, thiese quotes sound like one shouldn’t work:

    Sitting and learning all day is the ideal. “Talmud Torah kneged kulam.” Chazal say, one word of Torah is higher than an entire lifetime of doing these Mitzvos. Chazal often mention that Toroso Umnoso is the ideal, that we do nothing all day but learn. Nowadays poskim say that w cannot reach that level, but clearly the closer the better. Also, Shulchan Aruch Hilchos Toalmud Torah, in the Shach ad loc, says that nowadays learning all day is the ideal, and that if someone has the ability to do it, he should. The Shach adds that regarding learning all day in general, nowadays we cannot reach our potential in learning the way the Rambam etc. did, since we are not on that level. Therefore, we should learn all day if we can.

    The Rambam writes that a “working person” is someone who learns 8 hours a day and works 3. Not works 9am to 5pm.

    A few other falsehoods that need responding:

    1) All Chazals, such as Im ain kemach ain torah, just means that if you have no food, you cannot learn. Other Chazals say that if you have no food and you try to learn anyway, you will end up having to steal to eat, and what good is that. None of this has anything to do with Kollel. If you are supported by your parents, in laws, Yeshiva, or wife, you are not in a situation where you have to steal, and you have fulfilled the Chazal.

    2) All Chazals that encourage people to work are also fulfilled by our Kollel people, and only exclude someone who has no means of support. Learning in Kollel is 100% a legitimate parnasa. If I become a baseball player and I have people pay to watch me play ball, thats OK, but if I become a scholar and have people pay me to learn – that’s not?? If I got a job in a think-tank thinking of stuff all day, that’s wonderful – but if I get a job in Kollel thinking of Chidushei Torah that’s not?? Why should learning be any less? B’H today we have people who specifically want to support Kollelim, similar to Yissachar-Zevulun. If I were hired by these people to dance for them, I would be considered having a job. And it is no worse if they hire more to learn and provide them with Olam Habah instead of entertainment.

    The exhortations in Chazal against being unemployed refer to those who have nobody who wants to pay them for anything, and are forced to take money form what was designated for the poor, which they do not have to be if they would get a job. But Kollel is not Tzedakah for aniyim. There is a big difference. Kollel support is support in return for learning. Tzedakah is support in return for nothing. As long as I am earning your support – regardless of whether it is through defending you in court or learning Choshen Mishpat – I am employed.

    #1177541
    Joseph
    Participant

    “Sitting and learning all day is the ideal.”

    Jothar: There is a world of difference between an “ideal” and something being impermissible. Nowhere did anyone say it is impermissible.

    #1177542

    All that talk about “women not being the mashgiach… dont harass the boy” is pointless here and it isnt your place to say these things. A boy who should be in kollel should NOT be on YWN or VIN. They get a stipend and this is how they spend their time? People look up to those in kollel, and if they knew you were on here…?

    #1177543
    Joseph
    Participant

    Incorrect.

    #1177544

    Sorry about my assumptions.

    Some of my comments were not directed solely at you. The first one was and I was wrong to assume. Everyone has their reasons. I was upset at the general idea that “women should not be on top of their husbands’ learning.” If he is on VIN or YWN during times when he should be in kollel, well there seems to be a problem with that. It is wasting other people’s money. If he was working and was spending time on non-work activities, then that could be gezel ect. same with kollel- they are getting a stipend for a reason.

    Once again, I am sorry about any pain I might have caused you as I know you would do your utmost to learn in kollel.

    #1177545
    Jothar
    Member

    Joseph, I had the zechus to learn in kollel. It was one of the most wonderful periods of my life. It starts off the family on the right foot, and imbues the home with a sense of ruchnius. When a person dies, a person isn’t asked how much money he made or how many initials followed his last name. I actually agree with most of the article. the problem, however, is that it includes a few krumkeits which ruin the entire article.

    1. MOST people aren’t on the level of Rabbi Shimon Bar yochai. Putting pressure on everybody to attempt to be this is one of things causing kids to go off the derech. The kiymu vekiblu of Bayis sheini caused more learning than the kafal aleihem har kegigis by Har Sinai. This pressure is causing kids to feel that if they can’t learn all day, they can’t be frum yidden.

    2. It’s a mitzvah to support Torah scholars. However, the article comes across with an “es kumt mir” attitude which has been deletorious to the Torah community. People in shidduchim make excessive demands of the prospective in-laws because “es kumt mir”- we’re learnign we deserve the best. Like you said, Torah comes from the bei aniyim, which the Maharal explains (IIRC) because aniyim aren’t established in this world due to their lack of gashmius, and Torah is the opposite of gashmius. Many of today’s kollel yungeleit live a fancier lifestyle than is necessary, putting an undue burden both on their parents and in-laws and on those who married a bas talmid chacham instead of a bas am ha’aretz with money.

    3. the article implies that the chiyuv is to learn, but there’s no chiyuv to impart that knowledge. Yet, The gedolim of the past felt completely differently. One way you know a hashkafah that isn’t 100% correct is its lack of sustainability. Both TIDE and Torah Umadda have their best and brightest go out to the working field, and the mechanchim and rabbonim come from more yeshivish circles, making it hard to continue the derech another generation. A derech where one learns but doesn’t teach is unsustainable as well. We say in shemonah esrei, “Ata chonen… umelamed”. As Rav Baruch Ber ZT”L said, Hashem is a melamed. This is the biggest thing. The act of giving over Torah to the next generation. The chazon Ish said one can be selfish until he’s 30, because until then his torah is like a cistern (limited) instead of a fountain (unlimited). After 30, one has a chiyuv to teach.

    Someone I know suggested that you were no longer in yeshiva. I disagreed with him, but you admitted it when you say you hadn’t the zechus of learning in kollel. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, as not everyone has the support or zitzfleish to learn. That doesn’t mean there is no chiyuv to learn what he can now, and I do thanl you for bringing it up. We will all be learning in kollel when moshiach comes, but it will be the “yomim asher ein bahem cheifetz”. Learning Torah and doing mitzvos now is like buying stocks on March 8, 2009. Everyone laughs at you, but you have the last laugh some months later.

    #1177546
    Joseph
    Participant

    Jothar, First you implied that this is only Rav Ahron Kotler ZT’L’s shitta. And now you claim it is an “es kumt mir” shitta. I am saying both implications are incorrect.

    #1177547
    Jothar
    Member

    Joseph, Rav aharon kotler ZT”L did not have a selfish “es kumt mir” attitude, as he was involved in Being mezakeh the rabbim and tzorchei tzibbur. His kollel was NOT gashmius-oriented. His shita of ONLY learning, however, was his owen, not one he got from his rabbeim, as the slabodka kollel was limited to yechidei segulah to prepare them to be klei kodesh in being mezakeh the rabbim. The selfish “es kumpt mir” expressed in this article (a complete distortion of the baal middos a kolel man is meant to be, as an elevated eved Hashem) is NOT what Rav aharon kotler ZT”L meant.

    Torah is the best sechorah. Bad middos can ruin good sechora like a fly in good ointment.

    #1177548
    Joseph
    Participant

    The Rambam clearly writes that EVERY Jew has a right to spend his life dedicated to full-time learning. Thus it would seem the Rambam falls into the “es kumpt mir” category you coined for this endeavor.

    #1177549
    truthsharer
    Member

    The Rambam also clearly writes very negatively about people who take communal funds to sit and learn.

    #1177550
    Smile_its_EZ
    Member

    I think you are all missing the point…discussing where you take your funds from to be able to learn.

    The point is..if you are learning–and taking money from other sources…are you taakeh learning –do you deserve the respect you are getting? Or are you just wasting everybody’s money and time? Rather go to work if you are not cut out for learning…but if you are taakeh growing in learning–KOL HAKOVOD! GREAT IS YOUR ZCHUS!… Try to stick it out whichever way–as long as possible! Every minute of your learning is precious!

    #1177551
    Joseph
    Participant

    truthsharer: What is the mekor for that?

    The Halachah is that you are nowadays ALLOWED to live off Tzedakah to learn (see the Rama and Shach in Hilchos Talmud Torah 246:21). And the Rama 246:6 rules that the custom is that Torah scholars do benefit from their learning, by support from the community. And he even brings other opinions that the community should support its Torah scholars even to the point of affluence.

    Additionally, taking money for learning in Kollel is NOT living of Tzedakah. Since I, the recipient, must provide something in return for payment received, that is a simple business deal. If I do NOT have to provide anything in return for payment received, that is Tzedakah. Since Kollel people must learn Torah in return for the payments they receive, they are NOT living at all off Tzedakah. Not any more than any person who renders services for payment received.

    #1177552
    tzippi
    Member

    To Joseph. I believe you’re right about taking money for learning. I started – am trying to save for Shabbos but probably won’t succeed – reading last week’s Yated chinuch roundtable, in which one of my favorite members suggests funding more generous stipends for kollel men to allow the wives to stay home. He doesn’t mention this, IIRC, but it would seem to me that the only way to achieve this would be to downsize kollelim, establish some sort of merit standards, etc.

    #1177553
    Joseph
    Participant

    The only criteria to merit joining Kollel, according to the Rambam, is being a Jew. IOW, the Rambam clearly states that every Jew is entitled to choose to join Kollel. (Obviously, it goes without saying, he must actually learn [not batul] in Kollel. But the Rambam imposes NO requirement that he be a “better learner” or whatever.)

    #1177554
    Josh31
    Participant

    Joseph, what if the would be learner insist on wearing blue shirts?

    #1177555
    truthsharer
    Member

    ?. ?? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??????:

    ??. ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???:

    Rambam Hilchos Talmud Torah 3:10-11

    #1177556
    truthsharer
    Member

    Avos 3:17.

    The gemara in berachos 35b.

    It’s all nice and dandy to say we should all sit and learn, but we live in the real world. We can’t.

    #1177557
    Jothar
    Member

    Joseph, can you please post the Hebrew of the Rambam purportedly backing you from Hebrewbooks.org?

    #1177558
    Joseph
    Participant

    Jothar: How do you enter the mekor on that site? Does it require a hebrew keyboard/font? Perhaps you can use the mekoros I provided in the OP’s.

    #1177559
    Jothar
    Member

    They have a Rambam link at the top.

    just to clarify, I am fully in agreement that the ikkar is to learn, and that’s why were created.

    Yated had an intertesting article in the Sukkos issue about the White Plains kollel. When it started, it was for 5 years only, and then they went out for klei kodesh.

    #1177560
    zman7777
    Participant

    The only criteria to merit joining Kollel, according to the Rambam, is being a Jew. IOW, the Rambam clearly states that every Jew is entitled to choose to join Kollel. (Obviously, it goes without saying, he must actually learn [not batul] in Kollel. But the Rambam imposes NO requirement that he be a “better learner” or whatever.)

    I do not believe that the word kollel was part of the Rambam’s vernacular. Additionally, the Rambam found it distasteful, maybe even forbidden to make money

    from Torah. As far as I understand the term Kollel as used today is about 150 years old, tops. Please provide sources for your statements.

    #1177561
    HIE
    Participant

    it says in kiddushin Daf chaf tes that if someone doesn’t teach their child to work, it’s like teaching him robbrey

    #1177562
    Joseph
    Participant

    I previously provided the mekors. See the OP’s. If I figure out that hebrewbooks site, maybe I’ll post the text. The first 8 posts on this thread provide more details on the Rambam I referenced.

    #1177563
    Jothar
    Member

    So far, the only Rambam actually quoted here is AGAINST Joseph.

    Learning Torah, however, IS an ikkar. Working is like going to the bathroom in Yeshiva- it’s a temporary petur from learning, but it’s not learning.

    Kollel is wonderful, and if someone supports you, it’s even more wonderful. but nobody has a chiyuv to support you, and nobody has a chiyuv to go into debt to support you. The extortion that goes on for shidduchim today is ridiculous and lacking menshlachkeit. Learning mitoch oni does wonders for one’s commitment to learning.

    #1177564
    Joseph
    Participant

    Which part is against, Jothar?

    I provided the mekoros, crack the Seforim open and check it out. The mekoros are in the first 8 posts of this thread.

    #1177565
    Joseph
    Participant

    Gra: Torah comes from the poor – not the rich

    ??? ??? ?????? ????

    ??] ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????’ [????? ??.], ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ???????, ???? ???????? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???????? ??????? ??? ?? ?????, ??? ?? ??? ???????. ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ??????? ??? ?? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ?????, ???? ???? ???? ??????? ? ):

    ??)?????? ?? ????? ????????? ??????, ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ???? (???? ????? ???? ??? ???) < ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???????

    #1177566
    anon for this
    Participant

    Joseph, if Torah comes from the poor, wouldn’t supporting Torah scholars beyond the most basic needs harm their learning? Certainly one should then avoid supporting them “to the point of affluence”, as you advocated above.

    #1177567
    Joseph
    Participant

    anon – That is a position the Rama’s quotes (to the point of affluence), not me.

    The Gra was never advocating not supporting Torah scholars, G-d forbid.

    #1177568
    sunflower
    Member

    joseph, kudos to u uve got teh patience man i hope u use it well and others be influenced for the good!

    #1177569
    Jothar
    Member

    Joseph, when engaging in a rishcha deoraysa in yeshiva, you don’t say “there’s a befeirus <insert favorite acharon or rosh Yeshiva sefer> against you, look it up”. Hamotzi michaveiro alav haray’ah. You are the mara deshmaytza, it is your achrayus to show your proof. Otherwise, no such rayah fakert. Plus, you’ll be mehaneh and mezakeh the oilam with a shtickle Toyrah, no matter who it’s going like.

    #1177570
    Joseph
    Participant

    Jothar, The first eight posts of the thread have quotes, paraphrases and Mareh Mekomos.

    #1177571
    Jothar
    Member

    Joseph, the only thing I saw is the Rambam that one is not allowed to support himself from others. The halacha is in Choshen Mishpat that if a toen says he has eidim or a rayah and he doesn’t bring them, then the halacha is paskened against him, and lu yiztuyer he brings his proof then hadar dina.

    #1177572
    Joseph
    Participant

    Jothar: There are mekoros cited in the first 8 posts.

    #1177573
    sammygol
    Member

    With all the mareh mekomos sited, unless one has been there, it is like discussing shchita with a vegetarian.

    #1177574
    Joseph
    Participant

    A previous poster, assuming the writer had years in Kollel, commented:

    “The speeches at the beginning make it sound as if someone here is trying to prove to themselves that what they are doing is right. Or trying to politely tell their wife to get off their backs. You arent going to convince people with speeches.”

    Now a poster comments:

    “No Playe de game, No Makey de rules. Someone who hasn’t put in years of learning in a Kollel should not advocate it being for everyone, until he knows what it takes, what its toll on a wife is, and what the parnassa issues are in and after Kollel.”

    In other words “Heads I win, Tails you lose.” If you’re in Kollel, you’re only protecting your turf. If you weren’t, you have no right to promote it. The cynics will put up a show no matter the facts.

    #1177575
    sammygol
    Member

    No, it simply means that until YOU have lived a life of a yungerman in Kollel, struggling with parnoso, having a tired, exhausted wife who ekes a living as a teacher and still cooks for you, does your laundry, and takes care of your children, all living in cramped appartment, YOU cannot preach Kollel to others, since many aren’t able to live like that.

    It is not a question of hypocrisy, necessarily, but of being totally unaware from the inside of what it entails, what the consequences for the family may be, and how the yungerman himself will be able to make a living once he leaves the Kollel. Hypocrisy it may be not, naiive ignorance it surely is.

    Lastly, if it were a commentary, idealistic as it may be, it may be excusable.

    #1177576
    Joseph
    Participant

    The purpose of this thread is to defend Kollel yungerleit from the incessant belligerence these heroes of Klal Yisroel suffer at the hands of cynics, especially on online venues. At no point did any post here insist “Kollel is mandatory”. Anyone with a minimal reading comprehension would see the frequent mentions of the legitimacy of a non-Kollel lifestyle.

    And everything stated, aside from frequently being sourced to giants far greater than I, has been stated by modern leaders of Klal Yisroel as documented throughout this thread.

    But in finality, no matter who would state this, there will be cynics who will find fault regardless.

    #1177577
    sammygol
    Member

    This very supposed ligitimacy of non-Kollel lyfestyle is being decried by none other than you, when you paste all those statements from gedolim that have, in THEIR time, forbidden college education. Any time someone tries to either point out that there were other great gedolim that disagreed, or that today people go to college to find a parnassa, and not to study Greek mythology for its own sake, YOU are the one who immediately pounces with yet more quotes, more stories, and more arguments to silence those who disagree.

    Please, not everyone is cut out for Kollel, and most of those who ARE in Kollel will NOT become klei kodesh, and need to have a legitimate, clean way to make a living, not relying on handouts from the government or other Jews, and of those, MOST aren’t interested or capable of becoming computer programmers, even without having to move to India. Of the rest, most do not have a shver who will suddenly make them a manager of his business, and don’t wish to open yet another store selling gatkes or jewelry.

    They still DO need a way to make a decent living, enabling them to pay s’char limud for their children, and not having to depend on glossily advertized tzedokos that so many detest. With Yeshiva trained minds, do you really expect them to become shoemakers or stock shelves in some tiny frum grocery? THIS is why they go to college.

    So, if you DO recognize the ligitimacy of other ways of making a living, without calling it a lifestyle, commend those who chose to have some schooling. And if you don’t, at least admit it.

    #1177578
    Josh31
    Participant

    Kavod HaTorah is enhanced by only allowing full time Kollel status to those who do the “profession” of the modern Shevet Levi honor.

    Learning has to be open to all, but not full time Kollel status.

    #1177579
    Jothar
    Member

    The Yated on parshas Noach has an interesting vignette in the article on Rav Shimon Shkop ZT”L, a maggid shiur in many yeshivas ( including Telz, Grodna, and YU). Some talmidim spent time talking to him in learning. They apologized for taking so much of his time. He responded that just like maaser is a segula for being rich, giving of one’s time to be melamed is a segula for acquiring knowledge. By giving, one gains.

    I also heard from a rebbe of mine that Rav Shenur Kotler ZT”L, when he was very sick, made a mecha’ah against those claimed his father was against being Marbitz Torah. In other words, Rav Aharon Kotler ZT”L did NOT change his mesorah of being Marbitz Torah and helping the klal. Only later talmidim “shelo shimshu kol tzarcheihem” claimed such a thing.

    #1177580
    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    Joseph: Thank you for your multiple posts. Although I didn’t read the whole megillah,

    I gave it a quick scan and saw many important points that you brought up.

    Someof which I only touched upon in some shidduch threads.

    However, you were very creative and specific in clearly bringing out these points.

    which are totally ignored in their respective seminaries.

    They all want, not future Gedoilim and Roshei Yeshiva, but current ones,

    with them already assuming the position of Rebbetzin/Balas Mussar to their

    husbands, dreying them a kop if they are running a little late for shacaris,

    or if they step out to bring in the mail without their hat & jacket,

    and garetel. (if heimish)

    If even some girls will read it and open their eyes that guys are human,

    you will have done a great service to them and their husbands in their current and future lives on the path of building healthy Batei Ne’eman B’yisroel.

    #1177582
    Josh31
    Participant

    “They all want, not future Gedoilim and Roshei Yeshiva, but current ones,

    with them already assuming the position of Rebbetzin/Balas Mussar to their

    husbands, dreying them a kop if they are running a little late for shacaris,

    or if they step out to bring in the mail without their hat & jacket”

    They are expecting from their husbands what has been expected of them.

    In many girls’ schools perfection is the minimum standard.

    In the Yated Neeman stories how girls are rejected in Shiduchin because of percieved imperfections (“lack of sensitivity in the area of …”) re-inforce this minimum standard of perfection.

    #1177583

    The workplace, even frum workplaces, is not a place for a good Jewish boy. We have to be there, granted; we have to make a living for our families – which is a Mitzvah in itself – but we need to realize the price we pay for those necessities.

    That’s why I always felt that if a Jewish woman or wife works, the last place she should chas vshalom work is in a goyishe worlplace. V’Hamayvin Yovin.

    #1177584
    Josh31
    Participant

    MM, another point in the case that Kollel is for the select few, not a “default” path for our sons.

    #1177586

    There are no defaults in life.

    Kollel is for all those who desire it.

    #1177587
    Josh31
    Participant
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