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Have you gone on a kosher cruise?
What’s it like? How do they accommodate for Shabbos?
There are 2 kinds of Kosher Cruises, There is Kosherica which rents space on a cruise and has their own chef to make kosher food
And you can also go on a regular cruise and order kosher food (Airline food) without paying any extra money
With Kosherica, you experience Shabbos in a way that is impossible when you go on your own. On the Kosherica cruise I took : 1. A salon was assigned to Kosherica for use as a shul 2. On Shabbos, two elevators were set up as Shabbos elevators 3. All electronic doors between shul and the dining room were converted to manual operation. 4. Instead of frozen dinners, we enjoyed fresh Shabbos meals 5. There were sheurim
Cruises are not safe.
I never needed a break from being Frum. Of course when it comes to those areas of Yiddishkeit that I am still working on and not so strong in and don’t come as naturally to me, there will be times when I am tired either physically or emotionally and don’t have the strength to fight my nature.
For example, when I am exhausted or stressed, I may be less careful about not speaking about things that one is not allowed to talk about on Shabbos. But it’s not like I would make a conscious decision that this week I am taking a break from not talking about forbidden things on Shabbos. It just happens because I don’t have the energy to be as careful as useful.
Your situation is different because you are still “becoming bt”, so most things are not second – nature to yet. But this is a good reminder as to why you need to take things slowly, one step at a time. You don’t want to go too far too fast and then going backwards because you took on too much at once. You should take things on as you are ready for them so that you don’t end up feeling you need a “vacation” from being Frum.
There is a really good booklet, put out by Midreshet Rachayl, called, “How to get deeper into Torah without going off the deep end”. Have you ever seen it? I think you should read it if you have a chance.
LB
if a person says im willing to become jewish except for 1 halacha i cant keep then he is not allowed to convert & no rabbi is permitted to convert him. EVEN IF THE RABBI SAYS IM SURE IN A MONTH ONCE S/HE SEES THE SWEETNESS OF JUDAISM S/HE WILL BE WILLING TO KEEP THIS LAST MITZVA
At some point, is observance automatic?
Yes it is. for example its alot easier to keep kosher if you always kept kosher than if you did not keep kosher for a while. If someone grew up eating and like shrimp or lobster, Its alot harder to give that up than if you grew up not eating it.
MA – Of course, you will agree that there is a fundamental difference between becoming a Ba’al Teshuva and becoming a Geir Tzedek regarding precisely this point.
Whatever progress a person makes towards becoming more observant is cherished by HKB”H, even if they are not “all the way there” yet.
Es Chata’ai Ani Mazkir Hayom…
I once went on a “non-kosher” cruise with some friends (I’m not advocating for it, just saying I did it). We saw a few other Jews so we tried putting together a minyan, but it didn’t really happen. Then all of a sudden on Friday night there was a minyan with like 50 people. I don’t know where they all came from.
The airline food was decent, I never would have paid 5 times the price (literally – look it up) for whatever a kosher cruise offers. Most of the issues which exist on a non-kosher cruise are either avoidable on your own, or not solved by a kosher cruise.
When people go on road trips, they typically take attendance or whatever it’s called.
Meno, which issues a) could you resolve on your own and b) which aren’t resolved even on a kosher cruise?
Joseph,
a) I guess it depends on the cruise ship, but I didn’t have any problems with automatic doors or elevators, we brought our own cold food for shabbos (granted we didn’t have hot food, but again, I’m not willing to pay five times the price for that).
b) Shemiras einayim issues – I can’t see how a kosher cruise can resolve that.
Is shmiras einayim worse on a cruise than on a busy street in a non-Jewish commercial neighborhood?
Joseph,
Probably. Assuming the weather is nice, a cruise ship is pretty much the same as a beach.
Joseph……yes it is worse on a cruise.
Years ago, cruises were more formal. Passengers would either change for the swimming pool in locker rooms adjoining the pool or wear full robes when going from the cabin to the pool. Now, passengers will walk the gangways in their bathingsuits with a towel thrown on their shoulders…totally inappropriate. Mrs. CTL and I stopped cruising in the early 90s because of this. Never mind, the tank tops and short shorts now allowed in the dining rooms.
We started cruising back in the 70s when the QE2 had a full kosher kitchen and there was an acceptable dress code on board. PLUS there were no electronic room keys. Nowadays, we can’t handle 14 deck ships that are 3 football fields long and call a Shabbos navigating that enjoyable
tiny edit
Being that cruises, even so-called “kosher” ones (what a misnomer!), are like being on a beach, there’s no heter for a Jew to go on a cruise. They’re all treif.
Joseph, unless you’ve person send on a cruise,you can’t declare something treif based on hearsay. The Alaska cruise I was on had 150 passengers ( out of 900 ) with Kosherica. We had our own dining area so no treif at our table. The weather wasn’t warm enough for bathing suits, especially if you didn’t go to the swimming pool on the top deck. As Meno said, it is more expensive but what price do you put on having minyanim, shiurim and fresh food everyday, meaningful Shabbos programs nd being with 150 other frum Jews while being able to enjoy the sights of Alaska. Shmiras ynayim is a problem anywhere
So I need to have treif before I can say something is treif? We need a victim before we can say it’s bad? I think not.
On your entire so-called “kosher” cruise did you see (even in the corner of your eye or from a distance) even one of the non-kosher passengers in their swimwear or otherwise not fully dressed while you walked around on deck, below deck, in the hallways or elsewhere?
“Joseph, unless you’ve person send on a cruise,you can’t declare something treif based on hearsay.”
I think he was just responding to what Meno and Ct Lawyter said. He originally asked the question without making any assumptions.
“Shmiras ynayim is a problem anywhere”
1. It is worse in some places than in others and a person is OBLIGATED according to halacha to avoid the worse places if he can.
2. There are places in the world (albeit not too many) where one can avoid shmiras ainayim issues (such as your home, the Beis Medrash, etc.). From what I understand of the halacha, one is not allowed to go ANYWHERE where there are shmiras ainayim issues unless he has to.
Granted, the exact definition of “unless he has to” is probably somewhat subjective, and I’m sure there are many people who need occasional vacations, but you should still think very carefully about your vacation options, and see if you can find an option that won’t present shmiras ainayim issues (or the minimal possible).
Lightbrite – there is a very common misconception regarding the halachic definition of the terms Kiddush Hashem and Chillul Hashem.
A lot of people think that anything that causes not-religious Jews to think well of Religious Jews or non-Jews to think well of Jews is by definition a Kiddush Hashem, and that anything that causes not-religious Jews to think badly of Religious Jews or non-Jews to think badly of Jews is be definition a Chillul Hashem.
However, that is not correct according to Halacha. If someone is doing the wrong thing, even if looks good to others, it is a Chillul Hashem. Likewise, if someone does the right thing, even if makes others look down on him, it is actually a Kiddush Hashem and not a Chilul Hashem.
Of course, if someone can do the right thing in a pleasant, polite way that doesn’t look bad, then that is the better choice and a bigger Kiddush Hashem. But if it is not possible, then the biggest Kiddush Hashem is to do the right thing anyhow.
There may be some cases where one is supposed to “compromise” for the sake of a Kiddush Hashem, but that is generally only in a case where you are not actually doing something forbidden. Maybe you are giving up on a chumra, for example, because it will offend someone. Or in some cases, you may be allowed to follow a leniency in order not to offend someone. Those are the types of things that can come up when dealing with not-Religious family members or others, and one should ask a sheilah in those cases.
LB- In your example above, I would agree with the moderator that it probably shouldn’t be so complicated to say “I’m so sorry, but I can’t take the picture for you.”. There may be many reasons why someone can’t take a picture, and I don’t think anyone will ask for an explanation.
When it comes to these types of issues, I think that people often think they are more complicated than they really are. One big issue that people often have is the “shaking hands with members of the opposite gender” issue. People always ask, “what do you do if someone of the opposite gender wants to shake hands with you? Won’t they be offended if you don’t?”
Personally, I have rarely found this to be a problem. I simply tell them that I can’t shake their hands for religious reasons and they are usually fine with that. The only time it is a problem is when I am with other religious family members who do shake hands with not-religious relatives who then may think that I am rude for not shaking hands with them. But I think if anyone is causing a chilul Hashem in that case, it is the ones who shake hands and make the ones who don’t look bad. If no one did, then no one think badly of it.
lightbrite: please define “non-kosher fruit platter”.
lesschumras: “The weather wasn’t warm enough for bathing suits, especially if you didn’t go to the swimming pool on the top deck.”
That’s a smart way to avoid shmira ainayim issues – go in the winter!
Joseph, if you are relying on hearsay, keep your comments to yourself. I don’t recall if I did see anything on my kosher cruise, but, that can happen anytime anywhere. If you don’t like it, you have a choice, go or don’t go
LB- regarding Kiddush Hashem issues, read my above posts (which you didn’t see before you wrote your last one) if you didn’t already.
In terms of leniencies for shaking hands, it is not so simple. I think that most Rabbis says that most people should not do so, but you should ask your own sheilah since it is the type of thing that may depend on the person and the circumstance.
LB- I think they weren’t moderated yet when you wrote yours. That is why I wanted to make sure you saw them
I have never been on a cruise and unless I am going to Greece or Alaska, I have no intention on going.
But people are complaining about cruises, How about people going to Florida. Why do you think people go to Florida? To hang out at the Beis Medrash of Miami Beach?
LB: even though the fruit platter was prepared in a non-kosher kitchen there are some who may be lenient. As LU states consult a Rav with these shailos.
lessc: One doesn’t have the option to either go or not go; one has the obligation to not go.
Joseph, you have a right to your uninformed opinion. But remember, don’t step out of your house in the summer, go to a park, a zoo or anywhere else where attendance is optional but there might be an issue of shmirat anayim
lightbrite………
Please allow me to correct a misconception you have about people who eat or keep ‘kosher’.
Many of these people are not ‘frum’ but we we call Euro-traditional or Conservative. They may book a kosher cruise because it’s a family vacation and bubbe only eats kosher food. But the children and grandchildren will be partaking of all the regular ship activities, not attending shiurim or Jewish Music evening entertainments. Bubbe, herself may be happy with kosher food, but be the first in line for a nighclub show with scantily clad showgirls and also head for the casino.
I live in a small town. There are probably 100 homes with ‘kosher’ kitchens, but probably only one dozen of the families are ‘frum.’ BUT, without the support of the other 88% kosher butchers and bakers would not be in business. The same goes for kosher cruises, summer camps and even kosher kitchens at universities and colleges. A ‘kosher’ cruise does not guaranty a ‘kosher’ crowd.
lessc: Parks and zoos do not have swimwear clad women prancing around. Cruises do, as multiple other posters with this unfortunate experience testified.
Actually Parks do have women sunbathing. The parks they are just playgrounds for kids do not, but Central park for sure does
“It sounds like the kosher cruise is a partitioned section of the entire cruise ship. Is that correct?”
I’ve wondered this myself. I can’t imagine its partitioned in a way that stops you from going back and forth. If that were the case and I were one of the regular guests, I would be pretty annoyed that I had paid for a cruise and half of the ship was off-limits.
Anyone know how it works?
I would have thought that a kosher cruise meant the whole ship. It sounds like that’s not the case. Is that correct?
So basically, a kosher cruise just means that there is a kosher dining room and some of the entertainment is kosher. Is that what it is?
By the same token, its probably forbidden to go to almost any hotel, especially a resort hotel.
You might pass the pool area or see someone coming from pool
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