September 16, 2008 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #634420
tzippi- you are very right, i think because the problem was never addressed didnt know what to do, the first time a guy touched me he was a yeshivish guy in beis midrash and i ddint refuse because i was like hes yeshivish he must know what hes doing, I was young and stupid and have learned since than but I am sure there many other young kids in my position who need to be prepared for these situations
[email protected] group co-ed settings are the best, because its able to stay more in a friendship way than if its just a boy and girl alone, the guys i hung out with in group settings nothing ever happened but its when you get alone it gets risky. Any ideas what we should do about these problems?September 16, 2008 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #634421
teenager- let me ask you a question:
why do you feel a need to befriend boys rather than girls? Why cant you just stick to girlfriends- there are thousands of nice girls out there. Why do you have to stick around with boys?September 16, 2008 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #634422shindyMember
In the large high schools, it’s like a factory, everyone is a number, and alot of girls are lost in the shuffle and competition. Everything is marks and studying. If you are not smart or have LD you feel very different from everyone and look for a way to excell or feel good, so many go OTD. If there are issues the yeshivos do not have social workers or guidance counselors, they just have a mechaneches who is basically one of the teachers, who is not trained and is very harried and over worked and meets with each girl one time and that is it. The bottom line is that the school are way too BIG.September 16, 2008 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #634423
Teenager – I grew up in Monsey so I understand the scene you are talking about. I am 26, but I remember how things were changing when I was in high school. When I told my mother that drugs were prevalent, she was shocked. After a little while (and many details), she spoke to her boss, who was able to start a dialogue with schools and Rabbis. Thanks to my mother, a more proactive approach was taken (albeit not nearly enough and not universal enough, but my mother was instrumental in getting awareness up majorly).
I think one of the biggest problems is that coed socialization is considered such a taboo! It wasnt so taboo 50 years ago – why now? Our parents and grandparents socialized and found their spouses in a much more natural way.
It always irked me that throughout highschool all my teachers would say (in various different ways) “Boys are looking for one thing – so stay away” – and then 12th grade would hit and they would start talking about getting married. Whoa! Slow down – can we really change gears that quickly? Also, what changes from being forbidden to be involved in coed situations in April to graduating in June and being able to start dating. In my opinion, its bizarre.
I agree with cantoresque, that I would rather have my son have some pitfalls of supervised coed situations then out on his own. I know from my own experience, that those who came from yeshivish families and wanted to socialize in coed situations, ended up doing far worse things than those who were allowed to and were supervised. Would you rather you child be able to come to you and say “yes I want to hang out with this boy/girl but I want to do it here so there are less influences”? Do you really want your kid out on the street? Accepting them in your home does not mean you condone everything they do.
Also, when you forbid something, kids naturally want it more. I was much more enticed to drinking before I was 21. My mother allowed me to drink in her home and supervised. It meant that if I really felt like it, on Purim I could get really drunk but I would be home, surrounded by my family and not able to do bad things or get taken advantage of. I did drink but not get drunk.
The problem with NCSY events (I was a member) is that many of the events are highly unsupervised. There are a couple of chapter advisors watching hundreds of kids – if one wants to do something wrong, its easy to.
My advise to parents of teenagers is to supervise coed situations IN YOUR HOUSE or in the house of fellow concerned parents. This way, you have more control. Keep them in a fairly well lit, semi public area. They can have fun, socialize and not get into (much) trouble.September 16, 2008 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #634424
I am not a teen but I have a question for you. I am trying to undersand why you and your friends hang out in bad places and do bad stuff. Is it because you are bored and therefore having a kosher hangout will simply get rid of the boredom and completely solve the problem, or is it that you all have other issues (I think you mentioned that you were abused – that is awful and I feel terrible for you) and you feel a need to rebel to let out your pain. If this is the case, then I don’t see how a kosher hangout will solve anything. Suppose there was 3 hours on motzai shabbos of bowling, pizza and interesting shiurim etc. After it ends would kids just go home or would they head straight to 7-11 or wherever else they currently hang out? I am not trying to knock your suggestion, just trying to understand it better.
I think a better solution may be for you individually to find an older adult you can respect and confide in. From your response to smartgal you seem to crave that. Maybe the rebetzin of a shul? Maybe a teacher you once had, whether in elementary school, high school or seminary. Maybe a neighbor or a friend of your mother? Maybe project yes can find you someone? Maybe smartgal?
It would seem to me that this would get to the root of the problem more than just being kept busy for a few hours in a kosher environment. Am I making any sense?September 16, 2008 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #634425
muchcommonsense, it is entirely normal for teenagers to be interested in the opposite sex. Halacha challenges us tro channel that interest into appropriate venues for expressing that interest, but asking a teenager, or any normal person for that matter, to explain/justify their interest in boys/girls is like asking someone to explain why they are interested in food.September 16, 2008 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #634426
Would organizing a coed situation cause people who would otherwise not be involved become involved?September 16, 2008 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #634427rikMember
Teenager, I feel for you and I feel for all the kids in this situation. I was recently there and so I know exactly what you are referring to. My suggestion to you is to find yourself a “big sister” or mentor who can help you, guide you, and most important hang out with you.
Starting a kosher hang out is alot of work and, as previous posters stated, many frum communities wont go for it. However, finding a mentor will help you in the short term and maybe you guys can bring oyur idea to fruition. In general, If you have a mentor it might be easier to do the right thing because you know that there is someone who cares about you and believes in you.
When I was growing up my older sister was my mentor- she had gone thru alot and therefore was able to help me. So one summer, when I was 18 and hanging out in the mountains for the summer (lifeguard) I made friends with a whole bunch of guys. When my sister came to visit fo rShabbos I wanted to show her my friends because I knew she wouldnt be judgemental. When we went out to bowling moztai Shabbos ( at 2 in the a.m.)I was busy getting to know some guy when another guy came over to my sister and told her how amazing she is for what she’s doing and how he wishes he would have had someone like that for him when he was in highschool! p.s.- I never spoke to the guy after that and my girlfriends were so impressed and turned on to Judiasm that my kollel wife sister was so cool and non-judgemental and willing to party.
Another mentor that I had brught over some books for me to read when I was under house arrest (by my parents) and suspended from school. She also hung out with me when I needed some support and some good, clean fun.
Without my mentors I dont know where I’d be today- there were so many people that helped me alog those crazy years and I guess this is a good time to say thank you to all those out there who care about Hashems lost and hurt children.
I’m sorry for rambling but I hope this letter can help someone out there. Also does anyone know if there are any mentoring programs in Lakewood – I would like to be a mentor and attempt to give back at least some of what I got.September 16, 2008 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #634428000646Participant
Muchcommensense if you meant that last question you should really move to san fransico.September 16, 2008 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #634429smartgalMember
Teenager-well its a great thing to be jealous about a person’s sprirtual level 🙂 I’d love to learn with you or something how do we get in touch ?-& thanks I am looking into being a mentor for Project YES Ive heard about it .September 16, 2008 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #634430
thank you cantoresq, i was thinking of an answer to muchcommonsense and I quite frankly dont have one, its a natrual pull, like with positive and negative molecule, its a need. for me theres a little reason, I am a tomboy I like sports and guy stuff, I dont have fun shopping with girls and talking about clothes and stuff that irks me, I get along better with guys I am more comfortable talking to them, also I am sure this is true for many I have really low self esteem and what I can say guys intrest in me, alothugh only temporarily makes me feel better. and also i didnt say befriend boys over girls, I have way more friends that are girls but I dont shelter myself completley. Also I used to go out with any guy, Ive been with the worst and now Iv’e elarned to pick and choose and I have really good friendships, they give me something girls dont. they are way more trustworthy and caring and usually do whatever they can to help. But like cantoresq said I cant explain it, whatever I said is going to sound stupid and wont make sense to you, its a teenage thing.
Shindy- exactly, these schools arent equiped to deal with anything and the mechanchot arent any better, i got kicked out partially because i was molested and they didnt know how to deal with an issuse like that, so they jsut got rid of me. its a system we are all a number and dont feel like individuals anymore, we lose our sense of self so we go out there and make ourselves known.
SJinnyc- yasher koach and much grattitude to your mother for making the problem known. I had the same thing in high school, in binyan habyis we got a lecture how guys want one thing from you, and the next week what to look for in a husband. if guys just want one thing, how are they ready for marriage? when do they change? When you are forbidden you tend to do it more when you get the freedom, hence me with guys. I have heard stories about what goes on NCSY and they are not pretty, that is why my idea is ehavily supervised I dont want the same thing going on.
charlie brown- like i said in a previous post, most teens are hanging out not because they are bored, there is a small eprcent of those who do that, but because there are deeper emotional issues, the reason kids rebell is because they dont know how wlse to deal with their intense emotional pain, they have to keep it inside till they feel like they are gona burst and cant take it anymore so they try to find a way to chanel it, which is usally no in the healthiest manner, but at least they get rid of the intense emotions and thus they rebell by doing not the most kosher things. my “hangout” wouldnt just be bowling and shiurim there would be attention to the emotional need of the kid, if someone offered me help with my probelms I would immediatley take it and I know many others would to. So yea if its just a hangout they will go back to 711 afterwards, but if its a hangout plus it takes care of the reason they are hanging out to begin with its a win win situation.
k so for me indvidually as I was going off the derech I emailed and called top rabanim and other people to help me, but nobody did, they were either to busy or said I was to far off or they had worse, some just told me to go off immediatley. the worst pain is probally rejection, I had it so many times that I stopped reaching out, I have asked so many times that I will not ask again. Yea it would be ideal if I could have a mentor or someone to learn with or someone for me to discuss my issues with Judiasm with but thats not happening. All the options you mentioned are people who are really frum and closed minded and are just going to judge me and wont understand where I am coming from. but you are very right in seeing what I needSeptember 16, 2008 11:11 pm at 11:11 pm #634431TOHIGHSCHOOLGUYMember
tzippi … i am already way past 7th and 8th and therefore do not have much contact with them. I am in 12th and am relying on my experiences as a 7th and 8th grader, where these subjects (which include substance abuse btw, which is just as important as “sex education”)
charlie brown … while kids would still go do that, the desire would be alot less, because the aspect of “rebellion” would be removed. I still do not understand the problem with a relationship between guys and girls, and have not been able to get a concrete answer out of anyone.
SJSinNYC, couldn’t agree with you more … it almost seems to me that the teachers are scared of the subject themselves, and as a result, simply place a taboo on it. I am of the opinion that actually discussing things will lead to more confident and intellectually secure Jewish teenagers, something that unfortunately, we are severely lackingSeptember 17, 2008 6:24 am at 6:24 am #634432bein_hasdorimParticipant
TOHIGHSCHOOLGUY: “I still do not understand the problem with a relationship between guys and girls, and have not been able to get a concrete answer out of anyone.”
I will give you a concrete answer, It usually (more often than not)
leads to Isurim,(figure it out) & face it, although maybe most girls are looking for
positive attention, understanding, & just to talk, guys are not
(at least straight ones) guys can be manipulative (not talkin bout myself here)
persuasive, to a naive unsuspecting girl who’s just looking for a friend etc.
I’m sure some guys & girls will protest this as untrue but being truly
honest thats just the way it is.
It hurts my heart knowing the true nature of things as teenager has said
& zalmi, & I think (not being closeminded) that the co-ed idea is ultimately
counterproductive, however the seperate events like rabbi wallerstein bowling etc.. has the right idea, although there is not enough of those & it has to be more extensive than bowling & pizza, like baseball/basketball leagues, paintball, clay shooting, etc. (& interesting programs for the girls) so the guys are & girls are really having fun with their peers looking forward to the next fun thing all the while with learning & experienced speakers whom they can ask their question etc. you get it? this is it!!!
Kosher, Educational, & Fun.
this is my solution, teenager, borrowed from yours, slightly altered,
from co-ed to seperate (not less fun i hope).
Hope this happens I know guys who are w/ Rabbi wallerstein prog
& it keeps them entertained & out of trouble.(when they are there)
Hope I was of some help.
May Hashem have mercy on his nation & give them the wisdom to do what
is right in his eyes. Amen!September 17, 2008 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #634433
I do think separate hangouts is a good idea, but I am just not sure if it would work, like why would a kid want to hang out with girls if she can be with guys as well. maybe we can find a reason they would want to.September 17, 2008 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #634434
Again this is a safety issue. More than wanting them frum, I want my kids alive and safe. If I have to tolerate coed socializing to accomplish that, I’ll hold my nose and tolerate it. At the same I’ll make sure to teach my kids appropriate conduct around members of the other gender. I’ll make sure they are supervised, that the lights stay on at all times, that no one wanders off to a secluded area alone. Conversly if it’s the coed situations that presnt risks to my kid’s safety, they won’t go their either. It’s a far more dangerous world than it was 20 or 30 years ago. Parents can no longer assume that a gathering safe simply because it seemingly comports with Halachik strictures. I want my kids safe, healthy, happy and well adjusted and I’m certain G-d will forgive any slight tresspasses I comit along the way to achieving that goal.September 17, 2008 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #634435
You might be right to an extent, but again, the end does not justify the means. We may not do things against the torah in order to achieve a good outcome. I would consult a Rav if such issues (hopefully not) do come up.September 17, 2008 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #634436
I agree with intellegent we cannot go about doing something wrong to achieve something good, especially making children think that doing what they are doing is ok, which it is not.September 17, 2008 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #634437
Intellegent, coed gatherings do not have to be against halacha. I never had an issue. My mother supervised us and kept us out in the open. Although she never made any rules, it was assumed we would not go into any bedrooms or any rooms with closed doors. We usually hung out in the kitchen or den and were easily visible. We did not violate a single halacha that I am aware of. Maybe if kosher coed hangouts were allowed, less kids would be involved in non kosher ones.September 17, 2008 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #634438
OK everyone, calm down! Of course I understand that pple are attracted to their opposite sex. I’m a human being too.
What I meant is that if you know something is wrong, why dont you keep away? Of course we’re attracted to various things that dont belong to us. But I meant to ask, why, if it’s wrong?
What if I’m attracted to the taste of pork, do I use that as an excuse to eat it? What if I have a crazy pull to watch porn, will I do it?
Of course not, cuz if you’re doing what’s right, you stay away.
This is not to say that making conversation with a girl is like eating pork, but you get my point. When something is not right, no matter how we yearn for it, we stay away!
Too bad!(or too good!) You’re Jewish, you gotta stick to your own gender friends. Whether you are attracted to others or not.September 17, 2008 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #634439
teenager: just a btw- you’re writing that your boyfriends are more caring and trustworthy than girl friends.Of course- bec. they’re boys and you’re a girl! Thats the way pple act when it comes to opposite gender! Many times it’s a beautiful cover up. They dont act so nice to the boys they know, only to the girls.
I work with insurance companies, and who do you think are the nicest phone reps of course? THE MEN! because I’m a female. And it’s only natural for men to act super nice to a girl!
And what you’re writing about me not understanding you as a teenager, BTW- I just came out of teenage land myself! I’m very young and I remember my teenage years all too well. I had the same difficulties to deal with like any other teenager. But I was brought up knowing that boys dont belong to our group of friends. Of course we’re friendly them, but we dont run looking for warmth and love to boys.
This is a big mistake of today’s youth. We think we’ll find love in boys. There are countless stories of girls who didnt find love and warmth until they met that boyfriend. Until they were married a while later and were only abused and ridiculed by their “once upon a time boyfriend”.
You need to find someone to talk to, and I mean a professional. You need to find your affection and attention elsewhere.September 17, 2008 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #634440
SJSinNYC- you’re very lucky and your parents are even luckier! You sound like you grew up hundreds of years ago if your relationships continued kosher! Today we’re not so fortunate, if you dont keep fully away, it’s no good. Kids arent so honest/scared today. There are too many relations that end up in trouble. I wouldnt risk it with my kids.September 17, 2008 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #634441
rik- I am so happy that you had such amazing giving people there for you in hard times, I wish I had that I have looked for it and have not obtained it and unfortunatley everyday that passes I go more off the derech but whatever I will deal. That is very nice that you want to give back, I am not sure of any mentoring programs in lakewood, but I will look into it.
Smartgal- Thanks so much, I am going to set up a new email address so you canc ontact me for that, I will post it when I get a chance
Tohighschoolguy- not to sound distant, but you really dont understand the problem with a relationship between guys and girls well since I have lived it and been hurt so many times I get it, theres a lot I want to say and cant say on theyeshivaworld so when i set up a new email address for smartgal feel free to email me there. but anyway no relationship is platonic, guys and girls are very different in what they want from a relationship. the girl wants the emotional part, she wants someone to care for her, portect her and love her and maybe even hold her. the guy mainly wants the physical. because we are taught ot spoken about the opposite gender we dont realize that their needs are so different than our own, that we assume that we want the same thing, I have been with good frum guys who are like you know you want it even though I am crying they dont get it. No friendship stays a friendship, I am not a teacher, a rebbe or even any adult who is preaching this, its just so many people told me this and I was stupid enough to think I could just have friendships, because thats what I wanted but it never stayed that and it wont, the longest friendship i had with a guy before something happened was 5 months and I was fooled saying oh this is working but it wont, we have contrasting interests and it does not work.
bein hasdorim- wow you hit the mark, thats exactly what happens and what happened with me, i was completely manipulated. you have good ideas about fun activities that would keep us busy, I would drop guys to play sports and stuff in a good environment. Thanks for your ideas and for seeing things the way they truly are.
[email protected] thats why i originaly said co-ed because I didnt get why they would leave what they have, but if we make it really good, really fun and stuff they would leave. and this is just an idea, we have to play with it, but i know in the frum circles now that with the shortage of boys in shiduch dating they made a thing that if you marry a girl older than you, you egt paid a certain sum of money, so this enticement egts the guy to start dating older girls and than they end up meeting the right one, so if we could entice them in some way and give them a bribe to come out, and once they come out and have a good time they wont need a bribe, they will see how a good environment like fun activities and a supportive staff can really make a world of differece in their tumultous difficult lives.
cantoresq- you amde a good point about teaching kids proper conduct around the proper gender, i think because we teach them not to look or talk to the opposite gender, that if/when they break out the guys tend to treat the girls as bodies cause they were never taught to respect the girl as a person,a dn they completely use the girl who than feels so empty and hurt so she continues with guys looking for someone who can make her feel better but just ends us in a vicious cycle of being hurt again. and if u asked why they started to begin with- forbidden fruits are the most desired.
inteligent, and [email protected] ok forgot about making a bigger problem, solve the problem we have right now, instead of saying that whatever we do id going to make it worse you wont try to make it better, what is wrong with you?
Sjinnyc- exactly, if we had a co-ed kosher hangout, kids would come out from basement and cars and parks and go into a good supervised environment.September 17, 2008 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #634442
muchcommonsense – I wouldnt neccesarily say that my mother and I were lucky. We found something that worked for us. My mother believes in open communication and wanted me to come talk to her even if I did something wrong. Because of her unending love and trust I never really did “bad things” because I had no need to.
Once, when I was 17, my friend who only had her permit picked me up. My mother commented “Oh how nice she got her license” and I didnt dispell that notion. A year later I was so overcome with guilt that I confessed to my mother. Thats the worst thing I did as a teenager.
Just and FYI – I’m 26. I still clearly remember the teenage years and what was going on. I always found that the more restricted girls were, the more wild they went when they “let loose.” My modern orthodox friends might have made out with their boyfriends, but my yeshivish friends progressed much farther…(not that all or even most of my friends dated in high school, but of those that did…)
My mother’s rule was no dating in high school. So I didnt. It didnt really bother me because I was more interested in snowboarding and going to Yankee games and playing chess (yes I’m a dork). I met my husband when I was 19 in school and it all worked out from there.
teenager – if you are looking for someone to talk to, you are welcome to contact me. (I’ll post my email address if you want) I’m not perfect (nor yeshivish if thats what you are looking for), but I understand where you are coming from.September 17, 2008 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #634443
Who is not calm? By the way as a general rule, I find that when people are told to
“CALM DOWN”, they tend to get even tenser!
As far as I know, there is nothing wrong with me right now. I’ve heard from people a lot smarter than me and you who criticize very big kiruv organizations for doing things that are not so Kosher to bring people closer to yiddishkeit. I am not judging you about what you are going through and hope you will come out of it a lot better than you were to begin with, but just know that as i’ve said before, The end does not justify the means.September 17, 2008 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #634444SMember
It sounds like you are all coming from modern homes – well let me tell you something – coming from the chasidishe world – and a frum ubringing – the torah and gedolim do not allow coed before marriage. I never spoke to any boys ,or even had such desires before marriage – I had 2 sit ins with my chassan – THATS ALL!!! And I am baruch hashem very happily married – couldn’t be better – take a poll – its a fact…. chasidishe ppl always had the divorce rate much lower then the rest of jewish sects. And its not because ppl were afraid of divorce stigmas – it is because we are happily married!!! This is the right torahdige way… there is no question about it. NO COED!!!September 17, 2008 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #634445
SJS- Good for you! Really! But you cant deny that this can only work with strict supervision like you had from your mom. Teenager(the writer) seems to have it a bit wrong, and that’s what I’m trying to prove to her. True love and affection does not come from a boyfriend, even if it seems so at first. It should come from an older, trusted parent or other adult. And if someone’s lacking that, then a boyfriend isn’t such a great idea after all. They dont have real love that way and they dont have the supervision that they need that way. Without supervision, I don’t want to think what this relation can bring to. Kids today arent so strong to do what’s right.September 17, 2008 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #634446
My dating, though much different than S was probably closer to hers than most other people on this post. I met my husband 4 times. Each one was quite a few hours but it was still “just” 4 formal meetings. The fifth time we met was before the L’chaim. I went to see his family (I had already met his parents) and then he drove me home. We went to see his grandmother and then was the L’chaim.
We are B”H very happily married. Our parents both checked each of us out before hand and there was no need for more than that.
FY”I, I just read a book about R’ Shmuel Aharon Yudelevitch (it’s really good, written in story form not like a typical gadol book…) anyway, the girl he married was the daughter of R’ Aryeh Levine. For 3 years he spent a lot of time in their house, basically lived there and when R’ Aryeh Levine suggested his daughter as a shidduch, R’ Shmuel Aharon said yes but he needs to see her first! After spending THREE years in the house, he never NOTICED her!
I am not saying that we can’t have different ways of going about a shidduch but don’t think that it is necessary, natural, or ideal to get to know boys upon boys upon boys (and vice versa) befoer you get married!
I really suggest that you forget about getting help from this blog and either email smartgal or whoever else you think can help you as there really is answers and help for your situation. Don’t give up but don’t keep your hopes on this blog. It’s just for nice discussions and hearing opinions nothing more.September 17, 2008 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #634447
You answered my questions about the hangout idea very well, and it now makes a lot of sense to me although as others have said I don’t think co-ed is the way to do it.
As for mentors, I don’t know much about project yes but isn’t the purpose of the organization to find mentors for kids in your situation? Does it not work the way its supposed to?
IMHO, I think that in addition to a mentor you would surely gain from professional help in dealing with the trauma of being molested. Have you ever received any professional help? Do your parents know about it and will they pay for therapy? I hope you don’t mind the personal questions – please don’t feel the need to answer if its too personal or painful to talk about.
Also, never give up no matter how many rejections you’ve gotten. You obviously have a great neshama the way you want to grow and help your friends grow. Keep reaching out and daven hard to have the strength not to give up. You can daven in your own words, Hashem will understand. And our tears and heartfelt tefillos can create amazing results. Big people sometimes get big tests and i’m sure that in the end you’ll pass with flying colors.
And one more thing – if you post an email address here, please be very very careful about who you reveal your identity to and who you actually phsically meet thru that address. Even a person who seems online to be a caring middle-aged choshuva person may just be a manipulative abuser who is out to gain your trust and then take advantage of you. I’m sure you know this well, but a reminder can never hurt.September 17, 2008 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #634448shishoMember
There already is something for girls -Ohr Nava. There should be something similar for boys. Why does it have to be Co-ed?September 17, 2008 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #634449Feif UnParticipant
S: You had no such desires before you were married? There’s something wrong with you then. Countless gedolim, for thousands of years, have said people have these desires, and need to control them. If you didn’t have them, obviously it’s an issue with you.
Also, don’t think that chassidim have it all nice without any issues. Believe me, I know many chassidim who do improper things also. When I lived in Brooklyn, I was once in a video store renting a movie. The owner told me that he had plenty of chassidish customers, and they didn’t rent the regular videos, if you know what I mean. He even showed me a surveillance photo from the downstairs area of a chassidish couple (in full chassidish levush) checking out his selection.September 17, 2008 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #634450
To add to Charlie Brown’s point, I think you should think twice before posting your email all together! It’s Daaaaangerous.September 17, 2008 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #634451
wow I feel so bad for you teenager for everytime you go on you have to answer so many posts. I do think there is something we can do about it, but it would have to be with the approval of a rav, and no rav would approve (understandably so) co-ed hangouts. But being that we are both teens maybe we can think of ideas to change some things. and S is the third letter of your name I?September 17, 2008 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #634452
muchcommonsense- even though we know something is wrong we still have our weaknesses. currently almost all my friends are girls, and i look for love and attention through them, but i do ahve a couple of good guys who i do talk to once in a while. while it might not be right, i still do it. and if you knew where i was coming from, jsut talking to a couple of yeshiva guys is pretty good for me. maybe love shouldnt come from boyfriends, but if thats where i am able to get it from I will take it
Sjinnyc- yea that would be great, you sound like u get it. im not yeshivish either so dont worry
intellegent- thank you for your comment. also I am not lloking for help through this blog, I started this discussion so we can help others not me.
s- you might have a wonderful marriage, but do you know whats going in the frum world and especcaily the chasidishe world, let me familiarize you with a site called tefilindate.blogspot.com, i am not reccomending you go to the site, its basically frum porn and while i do not look at porn and the concept bothers me it depicts very well whats going on in our communities, first of all you have the problem when you are forbidding the opposite gender people become attracted to their gender, i have seen it, it happens in the mikvas, everywhere. I know the guy who runs the site, and the emails he gets from people looking to be set up to ahve affairs, its all true. and very sad. i know you are all going to get upset by thi, but i wouldnt make it up.
charlie brown- i ahve tried with project yes and rabbi horowitz told me that before i should work on becoming frum i ahve to deal with the abuse, that is more important. I have a profesional but it takes a lot of time to get over what has happened and is continuing to happen. my parents dont know what happened, they know things have but not sure what, but they pay for therapy. its very hard to keep going but I am trying. thank you for the reminder, i realize the internet is dangerous but i am going to post a new email address and be cery careful what I reveal to anyone.
shisho- brooklyn isnt the only place in the worls, and we need more than ohr naavaSeptember 17, 2008 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #634453
FYI, I had NO such desires either. If you never tasted chocolate you can’t have the taava. If you never had a girl-boy relationship or even a “taste” of it you can’t have a taava. You might say that there is no kuntz to not have a taava if you were never exposed but we are not looking for “kuntzin”. We don’t believe in putting ourselves in Nisyanos. Just like we do our best to protect our physical health/safety we need to protect our spiritual especially something that could lead to such terrible ramifications.September 17, 2008 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #634454
What you say to S is true. There is definitely a lot of problems in the chassidish world and all over. But there are problems wherever you go! That does not make the whole system bad.September 17, 2008 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #634455Feif UnParticipant
intelligent, your analogy is ridiculous. These desires are a basic human nature, it’s the way Hashem created us. Ask any Rav if it’s normal to not have any urges before marriage, they’ll tell you everyone has them, and something is wrong if you don’t.September 17, 2008 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #634456lammed heyMember
Feif Un: You are a boi
intellegent: you are a Girl
You will not agree on the issue of Taava. You are just too different (can it be any more obvious?)
(somewhat serious post)
Teenager’s point is if there is a Mutar way for guys and girls to Hang, they will (possibly) not do so in the back seats of cars or skating rinks (which leads to Baaaad “stuff”).
The worry is if it has a “Hashgacha”, those who would not have anything to do with the opposite gender may think its OK. I would go for supervised, following Halacha, but no “hashgacha”. That way there is “plausable deniability”. 🙂
Also, no-one would fundraise for the program, so you would have to find a sponsor who understands what is going on and is willing to pay for it (also not easy).
Good luck.September 17, 2008 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #634457
getting back to teenager’s suggestion is there anyone in a position to put her ideas into practice in Monsey (in a non co-ed setting, which she was agreeable to)? Unfortunately, I don’t think I can be much help, although I’d love to. I don’t have any cash to put out and I’m also not the outgoing extravert type-A personality that I think would be needed to organize this. Any other takers though? IMHO the s’char for this would be enormous.September 17, 2008 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #634458
I’m in for it in Flatbush if that helps…September 17, 2008 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #634459
You are 100% right on your point that he is a boy and I am a girl!!!
Taavos are SO different. Of course girls can have taavas. But boys way more! It’s natural and nothing to argue about. Even if everyone has a natural taava, I think for girls it needs to be triggered and even once triggered for boys it’s way more intense.
I never had a taava before I was married and can say the same for all my friends!September 17, 2008 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #634460
Just to mention a point that I think fits in here. Camp Sternberg had a policy that they had minimal rules. Their ideology was to have the campers improve based on good influence from staff and not on rules. they had rules but minimal. It did not work! Come to think of it doesn’t Rabbi Greenwald live in Monsey? Maybe he would be willing to be involved! I really don’t know much about him or anything but the little I know, I think he is involved in these things and he is NOT “Yeshivish”!September 18, 2008 12:11 am at 12:11 am #634461shindyMember
Rabbi Greenwald has had health issues recently, I don’t think he has strength right now.September 18, 2008 1:26 am at 1:26 am #634462
thanks everyone for your concern, I am well aware of the dangers on the internet since as a kid I got in a bad situation but I and will be very carefull, so if anyone wants to email me for some reason my new email is @gmail.com">email@example.com, smartgal and sjinnyc please email me if you dont mind and tohighschoolguy if u want me to explain the problems with boy, girl relationship, things I can not say here you can email me, as well as anyone else.
[email protected] eh dont feel bad for me, when you feel so strongly about something you dont mind defending it, it takes a lot of time but I am so happy at all the responses. I do not want to pervert Judiasm, chas v’shalom, my goal is to bring some of the perversion that unfortunatley is getting more and more common out into the point. I am sure you know the basi concept that admitting theres a problem is the first step to solving it, so to we have to raise awareness of whats going on so something can be done. Its unforunate I have been exposed to so much, but even in the bad you can find good, and if the outcome of all I been exposed to can lead me to helping others (which it already has) the end was worth the means and all the suffering will have been worth it.
Feif un, Intelegent- I see your debate from both sides, but its not that girl dont have tavos, they have differnet ones. I want to be held by a guy or hold hands which cause the guy to have more tavos. But you are right about first being touched which leads to more tavos.
Lammed hey- exactly what I am saying, bringing it out into the open. So I kind of am worried about the finance thing, thats why I posted here in the hopes of manybe someone being able to help, there are plenty of very rich yidden and I am sure this issue unfortunatley will hit home with someone, but I just have to find that someone, it might take a while but I know what I am doing is right and Hashem will help me. As you said, its not easy but its way worth it.
Charlie Brown- I really appreciate your support and validation, (almost) everyone else is fighting me. I understand if you cant help monitarily or personally, but anything you can give, ideas anything. Like you mentioned, the schar would be unbeleivable, so many kids would be saved, not just with Judiasm but from prison and addictions to drugs and alcohol.
Inteligence- not sure which Rabbi Greenwald you are talking about, it might be a brother but I know Miriam Greenwald who is one of the heads of JEP in Monsey and is an amazing women, the JEP sunday school deals mainly with 1st grade till 7th or 8th, the oldest I dealt with was teaching boys their bar mitzva parshiot. That is a very good idea, and I will look in there. Thank you. Also just to make it clear, I have nothing against yeshivish, I am just not exactly in that cirlce.
Not sure who said this comment that no Rabbi would agree with a co-ed society, I could name 5 or 6 off the top of my head and robaly more who would be fine with that, I am not going to put their names here but plenty of my rebeim are aware of whats going on and realize that this is way of dealing with it, since its better than other situations. And also before i spoke to boys, I asked a really high up rav about it, so yes there are people who would support this. A lot of the rebeim who deal with at risk teens and the likeSeptember 18, 2008 2:43 am at 2:43 am #634463
You might be right to an extent, but again, the end does not justify the means. We may not do things against the torah in order to achieve a good outcome. I would consult a Rav if such issues (hopefully not) do come up.
Posted 11 hours ago #
I agree with intellegent we cannot go about doing something wrong to achieve something good, especially making children think that doing what they are doing is ok, which it is not.
First off, I don’t think i need to consult a rabbi on something so basic as my chidren’s safety. Second, the precendent is set; it’s called NCSY which is endorsed by rabbis whom I am machshiv.September 18, 2008 4:42 am at 4:42 am #634464veimloachshuvMember
from my (limited) expiriance in dealing with “teenagers” I found the main thing they need is simply someone to show that they “realy care”. Please let me know if I am right, or did I miss the boat.September 18, 2008 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #634465tzippiMember
I was thinking about NCSY too. But. My frame of reference re NCSY is well over 20 years old. NCSY was geared to focused, secular or more assimilated kids, from public schools and yes, Jewish schools, maybe Solomon Schechter types. I don’t know what’s going on now but is NCSY interested in or geared to reaching out to the kids in question? I’m sure that individuals are welcome and maybe the word should get out, but I don’t know if it’s ready to broaden its focus.September 18, 2008 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #634466
was thinking about NCSY too. But. My frame of reference re NCSY is well over 20 years old. NCSY was geared to focused, secular or more assimilated kids, from public schools and yes, Jewish schools, maybe Solomon Schechter types.
I grew up in Suburban Detroit. NCSY was basically a social outlet for kids who attended the local co-ed day school. There were some non-religious kids who came to the events, and one chapter was located in a Chabad schul so there was an aspect of kiruv rechokim, but it was msot definitely a secondary emphasis, as far as I recall.September 18, 2008 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #634467JosephParticipant
cantoresq, Southfield/Oak Park area?September 18, 2008 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #634468
Southfield. My family was one of the founders of the Young Israel of Southfield.September 18, 2008 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #634469
thanks for your kind words. I will try to think of ideas, and if you can think of anything I can do to help, please let me know.
One thing to think about I think, is what someone mentioned before – that this hangout should be only for kids who have been doing worse stuff and it therefore will be a step up for them, not for kids who have never done bad stuff and would be heading downhill by coming. Do you agree? if yes, how can that be enforced?
Also, there is a Rabbi Blobstein in Monsey who has a program for boys who are struggling with their yidishkeit and I’ve heard that he is very successful. Maybe he can get this rolling. Do any of the guys you hang out with know him or are part of his program?
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