September 18, 2008 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #634470
cantoresq, Ironically (if I’m not mistaken) the Young Israel in Southfield is now affiliated with Agudah!September 18, 2008 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #634471
nm, perhaps I’m mixing it up with Agudas Yisroel-Mogen Avraham? I recall an Agudah shul in the area used to be YI (and may still have it as part of its name?)September 18, 2008 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #634472cantoresqMember
Joseph, the Young Israel of Southfield is hardly an Agudah. The Mogen Avraham schul is now a branch of Agudah. My uncle davened there for many years when there was barely a minyan. I spent many a shabbos and yom tov in that schul. His son, my cousin still davens there.September 18, 2008 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #634473
cantoresq, was the Mogen Avraham previously affiliated with YI (or some other national body)?September 18, 2008 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #634474cantoresqMember
Not as far as I recall.September 18, 2008 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #634475
veimloachshuv- i read your post a little while ago but i didnt have time to respond, I was going to write that u are wrong that the main thing isnt that they need t be care for that its emotional probelms mainlt, but the more i thought about it, I realized that they are interconected, most emotional problems are from not being cared about, whether its dysfunctional homes, abuse or just a busy parent. kids nee to feel they are truly care about, andwe can tell when people are fake. my ideal kosher hangout would provide the love and careing and sense of needing that these kds long for and crave. so you are correct
tzippi- i went to an ncsy summer camp 3 years ago, and its purpose was to integrate bais yaakov kids with public school kids wo we could rub off on the public school kids, there were different levels of elarning and it was aimed to be eared for all types of girls, but it didnt quite do that, i think the public school kis influenced me more. when i was 10 or so my brother was some big thing in monsey jr ncsy and he would bring me to a lot of the events and most of those kis were in co-ed more modern day schools. so basically ncsy is a big mix it has public school kids and co-ed day schools, but mainly its focus is with kids who have basically no background in judiasm, its nor emnat fro these kids in question- the ones who grew up frum and are somewhat turned pff and need positive reinforcement, it would be to below us and we would end up being influenced by these kids who are just starting off in the frum world
charlie brown- thanks, um one thing I might need help I dont know if you would want to, but I want to write letters t different rabbeim asking for guidance in this undertaking, so I need a little help composing them cause I dont want it to sound childish or anything. So I dont know if thats your are or what but just a thought.
So I was thinking that also, that the kids who never experimented should not get involved with this crowd, but one thing is some of these kids are dieing inside even though they have never acted out on the exterior and maybe this will prevent them doing anything bad in the future, it would have worked for me. but i dont think the kids who arent involved would come, they wouldnt want to be with that crowd.
I actually never heard of Rabbi Blobstein, I will ask some of the guys and it does sound like he could be helpfull as this falls under his field. I doubt the guys I talk to will know him as most of the guys I know in Monsey are either very frum or not religous anymore and not intrested but I will loook into it, thanksSeptember 19, 2008 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #634476SJSinNYCMember
Sorry I have disappeared for a bit, but everyone in my family (me, my husband and son) are all sick! Thank you for all your refuah shelaima wishes (its nothing life threatening!)
I think there is something people are missing: Arranged marriages and limited dating is fine for many people in yeshivish/chasidish circles. Marriage works when two compatible people want to make their marriage work (for the most part). Love is a bonus. I fell in love with my husband before we got married, but I dont think its neccesary to love each other before marriage (although for me personally it was – I couldnt marry someone to learn to love them, though it works for many people). Marriage is hard work and many people are not willing to put in the time and effort. I think this is something we need to teach the younger generation – its not all about what the outside world sees, its about communication, understanding and often doing things you dont want to or arent in the mood for because it makes your spouse happy. But I digress…
Its the kids who want to be in coed situations and will find ways even if their parents dont let – thats where the issues lay. If your kid tells you they want to hang out with members of the opposite gender, instead of saying NO, discuss it with them and then provide them a kosher way to hang out. You can talk to them about rules and regulations and make them see that they can “experiment” with coed situations without doing drugs and making out. Now, you have to know your child – this wont work with many kids, and I suspect the parents who are capable of having these types of honest conversations with their kids are much less likely to have kids go off the derech.
Intellegent: About the Sternberg comment – I was a camper there for 8 years. What didnt work at Sternberg? I was a camper there from 1989-1997 (never worked as staff) so maybe its in recent years. There were people from various backgrounds and there werent any bad influences that I saw. The only thing that bothered me was when I was 7, I got yelled at for wearing coullottes but my bunkmate wore a skirt that was about 2 inches long and never a word was uttered. I had no idea what was wrong with what I was wearing – my mother bought me my clothing!!! I was 7!!!! OK, end of rant!September 19, 2008 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #634477tzippiMember
Teenager, my take on frum kids involvement in these organizations is that, except for the rare exceptions, either the kids don’t get involved till they are mentor-age, or they should be in the majority. My kids were involved in a wonderful chesed organization that included some less observant girls (strictly not coed BTW) and they gained a lot from working together for a common cause. But once the demographics shifted and the non O girls were in the majority, I wasn’t comfortable with my kids getting involved, definitely not while still in H.S.
Back in the 70s I did have a few friends from my BY class in NCSY but they were in the exception category due to circumstances that aren’t relevant here.
Oh, and it should be understood that going into it with a strong identity and convictions will help to not be influenced. Again, I don’t think that NCSY is in a position to absorb all the kids that could benefit from such an organization. Some, but not all. Which gets us back to square one – how to design and promote an NCSY for OTD kids.September 19, 2008 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #634478charlie brownMember
I’ll be happy to work with you on a letter for you to send to rabbonim. I won’t have time today, but hopefully over the weekend or on monday.September 19, 2008 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #634479
sjinnyc- refuah shelemiah to you, your husband ans son
I have been dating for 15 months, since I was 17 and I can echo how difficult keeping a good relationship is, it has not been easy. We both come with a lot of bagage and still young and are somewhat imature we werent looking for a relationship but it happened and it has been anything but easy but its been worth it. A lot of my freinds were jealous of the fact that i had a boyfriend and I would always tell them its nothing to be jealous of, yea it has amzing aspects to it but its really hard work and it emans nothing if you dont do it the proper way. So a lot of teenagers are lazy and dont want to deal with a relationship and all the emotional aspects of a relationship so they just look for hookups and hanging out.
Also I love my boyfriend and i cant imagine having a prearanged marriage because maybe I would never ever love that man and I think love is evry important, as it keeps you going when times are really tough. I am sure it works for many people, but not for everyone.
My aprents are overprotective of me and need to know where I am going and who I am woith butI am sure the 30 guys at 711 at 2 in the AM their parents either dont care or dont notice, or they lied to them, but many friends have told me their parents dont care what they do and therefore they can do whatever they wantSeptember 19, 2008 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #634480
tzippi- this kind of orignization will attract these kids, iw ant it to get the point where all hours its stocked with fun activities and mentors for the kids. Well as a girl I have a big advantage in being able to make guys listen to me and try it, we can spread the word and make it work, I know I want and need something like this and so many toher guys and girls have agreed with me.yea like you said NCSY is not the place for us. So what are wo going to do about this problem besides argue that it shouldnt be coed, thats not really saving these kids
charlie brown- k sounds good, whenvers good for you I am pre-med and quite busy but i priotritize and we need to something about this epidemic, so whenever you ahve a chance. thank you!September 21, 2008 3:47 am at 3:47 am #634481
back to my original idea, beyond arguing the minor details can we all try to do whatevers in our power to do something about this?September 21, 2008 10:20 am at 10:20 am #634482intellegentMember
Okay, I worded it wrong. You’re right, in recent years the frumkeit went down. Whatever the case is I heard that they had to enforce rules stricter and they changed a lot of things. (It is now 4 weeks and 4 weeks as apposed to 6 and 3; I don’t know if that has anything to do with anything but just by the way).
Also, if you noticed the advertisements recently, it mentions something that only people who are willing to be tzniusdig or frum (don’t remember exactly what but somehting to that effect) are welcome… So obviously they felt they had to change something about their policy. You are obviously coming from a very different background than me so I guess it’s hard for us to understand eachother as we are sort of speaking a different language.
To all those who can’t imagine marrying someone who you are not yet in love with, blelieve me that I know plenty of people in my circles who did not feel any “love” to their future spouses who got married and are very happy and feel anytime as much “love” to eachother as those who were supposedly in “love” before they got married. That is the Torah way. I have a friend who recently told me that she told her Kalla teacher during her engagement that she doesn’t “like” her Chassan (she meant to say that not that she has anything against him just that she doesn’t have any feelings towards him.) Her Kalla tearcher, told her that that is just fine and that is the way we do things. You don’t necessarily have to feel anything during engagement. She is very happily married.
We are influenced by the secular world and think that “first comes love than comes marriage…” but in fact that is not always necessarily the case.
I am not necessarily trying to influence the way you do things (I don’t think you really care what I think and will not change your ways based on my comment…) but I hope this will at least influence you to respect the ways it is done in our circles as that is the ideal way. So if you don’t feel up to it don’t but at least you should look up to people who do it like this instead of condemning it.September 21, 2008 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #634483noitallmrParticipant
Just saw this thread. Really impressed with you Teenager that you’re so desperate to improve and to become a better Jew. All of us can take a Chizuk from you even the much more religious that the chief goal of our being on this earth is just to seek to become closer to G-D and his ways. I think that if you try a bit then G-D will help you a lot and you’ll be able to see Hashgacha Protis along the whole way.
Keep it up and thanks again for enlightening me!September 21, 2008 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #634484
notitallmr- thank you for the compliment, i try.September 22, 2008 2:34 am at 2:34 am #634485chasid-of-HashemMember
teenager- i do not mean to attack u in any way. i totaly understand you as someone in my family is going thru the same thing. i just want to ask u- if s/t were to happen to ur bf. chas v’ shalom and he lived but was disabled as a result ( paralized, brain damage etc.) would u feel the same about him or bail out? i would assume u would bail out (eventually) as he has nothing left to offer u. if u were married and had built a relationship beyond the physical, this would be a MUCH tougher question to answer.
my point is that as much as you think you are in love with this guy, it is not a solid relationship. as much as you think its what you both want, it is ruining your whole take on what a healthy marriage relationship is. for that alone, it would be worth it to stop the physical aspect of ur relationship. if you can do that and remain “just friends” thats great. other wise, quit now- ull be doing urself and your guy a huge favor. good luck!September 22, 2008 3:04 am at 3:04 am #634486
chasid-of-Hashem- i completley understand your viewpoint of this situation, but i feel differnet. if chas c’ shalom something really bad happened i would care about him just as much ebcause our relationship is so beyond physical at least for me, he doesnt need to offer me anything, just by being who he is without even talking or moving i would still love him deeply. we realize what physicality can do to a rleationship and make weeks when we are shomer so we can just talk and really learn about each other.September 22, 2008 5:28 am at 5:28 am #634487abcd1234Participant
re teenager: you are an inspiration to me and may Hashem bless you with continued success in all your endeavors (i know i’m simply reiterating what noitallmr said but i feel the same way so i thought the comment should be repeated…)
you mentioned earlier on the board that you were “looking” for a mentor i would like to mention shiurim which may be completely off for someone like you i think its available at theshmuz.com i really enjoy them simce it brings Torah to daily life and it reallly helps and the topics are very practical…
Hatzlacha!September 22, 2008 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #634488
abcd1234- thanks you so much for the compliment, as you should see the hate letters i am getting in my inbox for not being able to follow halacha 100% like the senders who are writing it, and that I am going stright to hell, so thanks for the good words
thanks for the recomendation but shiurim is not the thing for me now, but i guess i will try it. thank youSeptember 22, 2008 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #634489
chasid-of-hashem- by the way you were completley right, something tragic just happened in my life and my boyyfriend left me because he could not handle it, really thought we would last but i guess i was blinded. so now on top of the tragic thing, i have a breakup to, but thanks for the warning, i should have heeded itSeptember 22, 2008 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #634490intellegentMember
This might offend you but it is for your good. Please forget about this silly blog and see someone who can really help you sort through these issues. Forget about helping all teenagers in your situation. That is really commendable but that is not what you should be concentrating on. If you are really honest about all your post and not some bored soul goofing around, you really need to see someone to sort through your issues. You need to help yourself and then you can help the world. Please don’t take offense with this but please take it seriously. I think this thread should be closed. It is doing more harm then good. You can re-open an other thread if you really just want to discuss the kosher hangout issue and this time leave out all your personal issues that you are going through. That should be dealt with anywhere other than cyberspace.
Good luck and I wish you well!November 5, 2008 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #634491GILAMember
i have a question for teenager wat went so bad in your life that made you go off?? if you dont mind me askingNovember 5, 2008 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #634492
if you read the post you will find out some things, but mainly abuse as r’ horowitz says abuse is the number one reasons kids go off the derech. plus when i was reaching out for help i was pushed away. does that answer your question gila?January 25, 2009 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #634495
Just wanted to let whoevers interested that while my idea of a 24/6 kosher hangout wasnt actualized to some degree theres something similar. Rabbi Gluck who runsvAreivim for at risk teens has a excercise arcade which is used mainly for the boys to chill and one night a week for the girls. While its not what Ive dreamed its deffintley a start, plus its not co-ed which I have realized would never ever work. While this doesnt give kids a definite escape its an outlet and a temporary safe place and makes it easier for me to sleep at night knowing that somethings being done.January 25, 2009 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #634496
i don’t want to comment on this thread because i’m in shock that it got this far in the coffeeroom and i don’t want it to be shut down because of me.
i just have a question for teenager:
how did you keep EVERYTHING from your parents? i mean, my parents don’t know any details about what goes on in my life, but i’m sure they know that there’s SOMETHING going on. they’re not stupid – they see i’m not the little yeshiva bochur they sent into 9th grade in a white shirt. i’m just wondering how you could hide it that well.
in a way i’m jealous you can protect your parents from that. but in a way i feel bad for you. at least my parents try to accept me a little bit. they don’t freak out if i ever say or do something that’s not perfect.January 25, 2009 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #634497syriansephardiMember
The name kosher hangouts doesn’t sound to kosher….January 25, 2009 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #634500jphoneMember
Who gives the hechsher on these kosher hangouts? Are they Glatt? Chalav Yisroel? Yoshon Only? What about Non Gebrochts? If you happen to be there and it is Zman Tefilla, is a hat and jacket required? Even for the girls?January 25, 2009 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #634501Itzik_sMember
How about something similar to Ohr Naava (or Crown Heights Nightlife) for bochurim who no longer have a full learning schedule but are not at-risk either? (I don’t know how large a group that is but it could also draw some kids who are at risk of becoming at risk only because they have nothing to do in the evenings and on Sunday).
Courses could range from home repair and auto mechanics and first aid to basics of educational techniques and how to properly be mevaker choilim or otherwise help people in need….and, yes, cooking as well as how to handle yourself on a date! It would be a good idea to have basic fitness equipment and a high speed FILTERED internet cafe wherever this is done.January 26, 2009 2:09 am at 2:09 am #634502yrosMember
as syrian sephardi said: If a place is a hangout it is not kosher.January 26, 2009 2:18 am at 2:18 am #634503
that’s not true. maybe you people should read the first three pages before you comment.January 26, 2009 2:28 am at 2:28 am #634504
i did read it and i said i’m not getting into a conversation about it because i know it’s going to lead to them closing the thread. but yes i read every single post on this thread.
and i’m not telling you how i feel because the mods won’t let it through.January 26, 2009 2:36 am at 2:36 am #634506qwertyuiopMember
moish: i’m too lazy to read the first three, altough it seems like they may be interesting.$January 26, 2009 3:15 am at 3:15 am #634507
more like enlighteningJanuary 26, 2009 6:21 am at 6:21 am #634508anonymisssParticipant
Mods- This thread looks to me like it may take a dangerous turn soon. Please?
Thank you for your concern. As soon as it turns dangerous, we will close it.
YW Moderator-55January 26, 2009 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #634509
anonymiss- can you explain to me how this looks dangerous? or maybe define dangerous?January 26, 2009 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #634511kiruvwifeMember
teenager–this thread has been on for four months. Any progress as to finding or defining a kosher hangout? Has the advice here helped at all? In my field I have been hearing of organizations that are creating hangouts (separate) for teens who need a place to go and feel understood, and can be who they want without any pressure, no shiurim, no in your face judaism, just understanding, frum, married mentors, and fun safe environment. (maybe that’s what anonymiss was implying when she said dangerous–not safe ???))):)January 27, 2009 2:10 am at 2:10 am #634512jphoneMember
For teenagers (or anyone else) that has absolutely nothing to do with themselves for an evening, an afternoon, or for days at a time, a safe and healthy way to spend your time is to volunteer.
The local hospital or nursing home could always use a cheerful, pleasant person to assit with basic things and the patients/residents look foward to someone nice and pleasant.
Is it an amusement park? A Pizza shop? No. Is it a safe, clean environment? Yes. Try it.January 28, 2009 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #634513kiruvwifeMember
teenager-just read a post you wrote a couple of days ago and realize you know of these places already. hope they meeting with success, and hope you’re doing good too.January 28, 2009 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #634514cherrybimParticipant
Many times it’s the home and local yeshiva and environment that create the battleground for our young people.
There are a number of very good frum regular “out-of-town” (non co-ed) high schools that are not as judgmental as “in-town” schools and give teenagers a lot more breathing room. Many parents of At Risk Teenagers have gotten their children back along with their happy faces as a result of the success of these schools.
By the time teens are at the “At Risk” level, parents should be more concerned about gaining the trust and happiness of their child, than the child’s frumkeit. You can’t be a frum Yid without being happy. Ivdu es Hashem b’simcha.
I heard from a renowned Rav that teens at the “At Risk” level are probably not m’chuyiv in mitzvos anyway.
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