February 4, 2011 5:03 am at 5:03 am #738495charliehallParticipant
A lot of standard Ashkenazic Jewish food is identical to the stuff eaten by non-Jews in Eastern Europe.February 4, 2011 5:10 am at 5:10 am #738496
Daas – Oh! C’mon I didn’t chap! Thanks (I was wondering when you told me :-))February 4, 2011 5:18 am at 5:18 am #738497
Wolf – What did you think I mean with milk and meat?
I thought you meant it literally… since there is no halachic problem with having fake cheese and meat.
If I was wrong, let me know and we’ll continue our discussion along those lines.
The WolfFebruary 4, 2011 5:30 am at 5:30 am #738498
Wolf – I did not mean it literally, I meant that if the torah assured Milk and Meat than why does one have to find a loophole to eat it together?February 4, 2011 5:31 am at 5:31 am #738499showerzingerMember
Here’s an interesting question just to stir up the pot:
Could the Maan in the Midbar taste like Subway??
The only problem with fake cheese is MAYBE maaras ayin BUT in a KOSHER establishment that’s not an issue,is it?!?!
THe issur of baasar v’cholov is exactly that, and people that try and be “Frumer than Hashem” are just way overboard. i.e. and I apologie if this is/should be a diff. thread: Can you eat ANIMAL CRACKERS cuz some of the animals are treif?????? I’ve heard of “frummies” taht won’t/sort out the kosher ones! GO FIGURE….February 4, 2011 5:42 am at 5:42 am #738500
than why does one have to find a loophole to eat it together?
But they’re NOT eating it together. HKBH said “don’t mix meat with milk*.” He didn’t say “don’t have anything that tastes like dairy with anything that tastes like milk.”
* Well, He didn’t say exactly that either… but you know what I mean.February 4, 2011 5:48 am at 5:48 am #738501
Wolf – There is a reason Hashem said its assur, we dont know why, but maybe that reason could apply here as well, so although technically its not assur, It might not be the right thing!February 4, 2011 5:49 am at 5:49 am #738502
Re: Milk and Meat.
The gemara in chullin says that for everything that is assur, Hashem created a muttar way of enjoying a similar thing.
The gemara says that eating a cows udder has the taste of milk and meat. It does not seem that it is something we are not supposed to want to do.February 4, 2011 5:49 am at 5:49 am #738503
Aside: Some of the things the gemara mentions there are interesting.
Ex. Eishes Ish. The gemara says that the muttar way is to marry a gerusha. Apparently there is a taiva to marry a woman specifically who belongs to someone else, and that is satisfied by gerusha b’chayei baala.February 4, 2011 5:52 am at 5:52 am #738504
not the side-issue of is faux-cheese proper to eat with meat (which we *all* agree is 100% permitted halachically —
I happen to think showerzinger brings up a valid point – The only problem with fake cheese is MAYBE maaras ayin BUT in a KOSHER establishment that’s not an issue,is it?!?!
I’m not at all certain that it’s not in fact a problem. To quote the ??”? ???? ?”? ???? ?”? based on a ??”?
????? ????? ????, ???? ?????, ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????.February 4, 2011 5:58 am at 5:58 am #738505
Yes, if you use almond milk, you are supposed to put out almonds.
It also says that if you drink fish blood, you are supposed to put out scales.
Human blood is also only maaris ayin. Is it ok if you put hair and teeth?February 4, 2011 8:05 am at 8:05 am #738506Derech HaMelechMember
You are right that if somehow, someway, a Jew started keeping Kosher than it will have served its purpose. But you need to differentiate between our business and Hashem’s business. We do not say that we can do something that is less than right because maybe Hashem will use it to help someone.
iyhbyu: (I keep thinking your name is im yirtzeh Hashem)
There are other restaurants that were serving the same food without that name. I recall Essex on Coney had a meatball sub which was supposed to be really good. Subsational has all kinds of subs. The only reason to make a subway is to sell the shtick of eating Subway just like the goyim have it.
to quote geshmakman
I paid more than I would have at Subsantional, for 1/3 of the meat!
Obviously he is not trying to provide cheap subway prices to the Jewish community. And I’m not sure why you think it is not a problem to open a restaurant with the intention of it catering to both Jews and goyim.February 4, 2011 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #738507A Woman Outside BrooklynParticipant
Getting this thread back on track, since we are talking about the Subway. Yummy and everyone else who questioned “why call it Subway”, that’s because when the owner decided to open this business, they bought into a franchise. Just like kosher Dunkin’ Donuts shops do, and briefly, Nathans tried to. When the first kosher pizza shop (I think it was in Canarsie) opened, had there been a CR back then, someone would have accused them of eating like the goyim. Ditto kosher Chinese, why do we have to substitute veal for pork and serve spare ribs. I’ll put my money on a bet that there is no one on this board who hasn’t eaten kosher chinese, sushi or pizza, just to name a few types of restaurants we “copy”. And Kosher Delight probably was inspired by McDonalds. I could go on and on, but I won’t, because I think you get the point. When you buy into a franchise, which costs less then starting totally from scratch and provides name recognition – an important aspect of marketing – then you must use the name. And if you’re not part of a franchise, then you can’t use the name “Subway” because it’s a registered trademark.February 4, 2011 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #738508A Woman Outside BrooklynParticipant
Oh, and Brisker, please throw out those mock shrimp in your freezer – you know, the product that was a big hit a few years ago at the Kosher Fest.February 4, 2011 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #738509vacationMember
I think I’ve missed the point here. Subway started a kosher franchising program to test out the size of the kosher market. Subway does charge high royalties off gross sales (the franchise fee is based off of sales without including any expenses) but the franchise provides bulk ordering and all the equipment and decorating (you pay for it, but you don’t have to worry about any design or advertising costs). People will try a Kosher Subway for the novelty, but the real purpose of the business is to be a profitable store long term. While the kosher franchises mostly flopped in NY (due to a variety of reasons, competition being a big one), I have eaten at the one in LA and loved it. They have a $8 foot long special (available all day) which is comparitively priced with most kosher fast food places.
Who cares if the franchise is a famous goyish franchise? If you have something against the concept then don’t patronize the store, but don’t try to talk bad about it to others.February 4, 2011 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #738510
A Woman outside bklyn…you’re making too much sense…stop it…we only accept illogical and foolish arguments here…February 4, 2011 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #738511
And I’m not sure why you think it is not a problem to open a restaurant with the intention of it catering to both Jews and goyim.
Because EVERY kosher restaurant works that way. They don’t stop non-Jews at the door — and they wouldn’t even if they could.
Or, we can play it this way — what is the problem with opening a restaurant that will cater to both Jews and non-Jews. In other words, which issurim is EVERY restaurant owner today violating?
And, R-B, I’m STILL waiting for you to answer my question — why is a Subway sandwich any worse than Chinese food, sushi, pizza or any other ethnically identifiable food vis-a-vis “eating like goyim?”
The WolfFebruary 4, 2011 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #738512
Kosher chinnese, pizza, sushi, choclate… there is nothing inevitably wrong with, it just doesn’t have a hechsher, Fake Milk and Meat is trying to copy something that is assur.February 4, 2011 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #738513
realbrisker- Did you bother looking up the gemara Popa mentioned? I’m assuming you didn’t because if you did you would see clearly that what you’re saying is completely against daas torah.It’s in chulin, I believe 99b. Yalta, the wife of Rav Chisda said to him “I want to eat basar bichalav.” Rav chisda told her to eat the udder of a cow and the gemara goes on to say that for everything assur, hashem created something muttar, and gives examples. The reason for not eating milk and meat together is because that’s what we were commanded, no other reason. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having fake milk or fake meat (as long as you follow the shulchan aruch to avoid the maaris ayin issue). Proper hashkafah is not something innate. You have to learn and look up the issues. Clearly, you didn’t. What you are saying is not only wrong, but against an open gemara.February 4, 2011 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #738514
Kosher chinnese, pizza, sushi, choclate… there is nothing inevitably wrong with, it just doesn’t have a hechsher, Fake Milk and Meat is trying to copy something that is assur.
Ah… but that’s not what you said. You said it’s a problem of “eating like goyim” — and you said that before the issue of fake milk/meat ever came up. You seemed to have a problem with it in toto. So tell me, if there wasn’t an issue of fake milk/meat products, would you have a problem with Subway?
The WolfFebruary 4, 2011 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #738515
“there is nothing inevitably wrong with”
Do you really mean to use the word “inherently”?
Someone tried to open a restaurant using an established brand name. Is it any different than opening a Benneton franchise to sell clothes? Amway? Shaklee?February 4, 2011 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #738516Avram in MDParticipant
A Woman outside bklyn…you’re making too much sense…stop it…we only accept illogical and foolish arguments here…
I happen to agree with the “pro-kosher-Subway” side of the argument, but I don’t think that statements putting down the entire Coffee Room (and by extension, a perceived community of Jews) are called for. Why are you here if you feel that everyone else who disagrees with you is inferior to your intellect?
FWIW – I think I understand the “anti-kosher-Subway” argument, but it is not being well articulated in this thread. The opposition comes from a conception that places like Kosher Subway open to provide Jews something they are “missing” because they keep kosher… as if kashrus renders us lacking something, G-d forbid. In reality the idea came from Subway itself, because they want to get a piece of the kosher market and its loyal customer base. I think they have already been doing it with the Halal (Muslim dietary codes) market. I have not seen anything in their marketing such as “come and see what you’ve been missing!”
I think the Subways are equivalent to the fake seafood, etc. We can keep kosher and eat all sorts of foods, but we have the benefit of serving Hashem through our food.February 4, 2011 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #738517
“In reality the idea came from Subway itself, because they want to get a piece of the kosher market”
If I’m not mistaken, one of the largest Subway Franchisees is a yid named Feldman. His Subway Development Corporation headquartered in the DC area owns over 1000 Subways. I have heard that Mr. Feldman is a frum jew who keeps kosher (but I have no way to confirm that, have never tried, and it may be nothing more than a popular urban legend).February 4, 2011 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #738518iyhbyuMember
@derechhamelech-(it is it’s im yirtzeh hashem by you)
Just because there is one place that sells subs doesn’t mean its the same thing. The bread they use for the subs is supposed to be very good along with the sauces, dressings etc. Some restaurants are better than others.
You are also falling into the trap of “the whole world is NYC.” All the subways mentioned aren’t in NYC. There is no Essex on Coney in these places.
Do you have a problem with the kosher lamp? It’s trying to be like the goyim and finding a “loophole” for something that’s assur, turning on a light. What about a blech? It’s finding a “loophole” to keep food warm on shabbos. There are no problems with “loopholes” in the torah. (Other than to put up safeguards and that isn’t a problem of being a “loophole”). Hashem knows what he wants to assur and he doesn’t need you saying “no I know that the Torah says that is mutar, but I know better”February 4, 2011 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #738519✡onegoal™Participant
OK well if it makes anybody feel better I don’t even get cheese on my sub! real brisker- From what you are saying you seem to have no problem with eating this as long as you don’t put cheese on it because it is no different than any other Kosher sub.February 4, 2011 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #738520Avram in MDParticipant
His Subway Development Corporation headquartered in the DC area owns over 1000 Subways.
We do have two kosher Subways here in MD…February 4, 2011 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #738521February 4, 2011 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #738522
If I’m not mistaken, one of the largest Subway Franchisees is a yid named Feldman. His Subway Development Corporation headquartered in the DC area owns over 1000 Subways. I have heard that Mr. Feldman is a frum jew who keeps kosher (but I have no way to confirm that, have never tried, and it may be nothing more than a popular urban legend).
If true, there would seem to be two issues with it; doing business in non-kosher food is a problem, and getting benefit from basar b’chalav is an even bigger problem.February 4, 2011 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #738523always hereParticipant
mike~ your tongue-in-cheek comment was sooo obvious to me! just sayin’… 🙂February 4, 2011 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #738524csr1Participant
How can anyone eat in a restaurant with the name of a disgusting transit system? I can hardly even breathe in the subway.February 4, 2011 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #738525
one goal – CorrectFebruary 4, 2011 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #738526
Wolf – We have halachos that say certain things are assur, goyim don’t have these issurium and are allowed to eat milk and meat, so yes by us wanting to eat milk and eat together is exactly acting like the goyim.February 4, 2011 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #738527
Daas Yochid…I agree 100% thought the same thing right away…February 4, 2011 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #738528
Daas. I’m not his Rav.February 4, 2011 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #738529gavra_at_workParticipant
Offen a Gemorah Chulin 109B.
???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????
????? Subway!February 4, 2011 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #738530oomisParticipant
How can anyone eat in a restaurant with the name of a disgusting transit system? I can hardly even breathe in the subway. “
The name of the restaurant is taken from the Sub(marine) sandwiches for which they are famous. Subs are so named because of their resemblance to actual submarines. “Subway” while a form of transit, is also a clever pun on the way to go to find these sub sandwiches.February 4, 2011 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #738531
realbrisker- Three people have made mention to the gemara in chullin already and you keep on going with your anti-subway tirade without even addressing it. Does torah influence the way you think, or dear i say, does your way of thinking influence the way you view torah.
“We have halachos that say certain things are assur, goyim don’t have these issurium and are allowed to eat milk and meat, so yes by us wanting to eat milk and eat together is exactly acting like the goyim.” Do you realize what you just said?! I know you didn’t look up the gemara but you’ve seen it quoted here. You’re saying that yalta, the wife of rav chisda, the daughter of rava, was acting like a goy!!February 4, 2011 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #738532TheGoqParticipant
lol csr1, but no one said its named after the mta i was in toronto last spring and those trains are clean enough to eat off ofFebruary 4, 2011 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #738533oomisParticipant
The owner of Wetson’s a (my belief) now-defunct treif burger joint, was one Mr. Wetanson, a Jew. Many Jews unfortunately went into treif businesses, both literally and figuratively. But when a place IS kosher, don’t put it down. There are kosher KFCs in E”Y, as well as McDonald’s (OK, maybe it is McDavid’s), and there used to be a kosher Nathan’s in Brooklyn. The possible reason for keeping the “treif” name, is to make the place marketable to ALL types of people to shop there, not just frum people. Do you go to kosher Dunkin’ Donuts?February 4, 2011 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #738534
Wolf – We have halachos that say certain things are assur, goyim don’t have these issurium and are allowed to eat milk and meat, so yes by us wanting to eat milk and eat together is exactly acting like the goyim.
So, can I assume that you have no problem eating a pure meat (i.e. non fake-cheese/meat) product at Subway?
The WolfFebruary 4, 2011 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #738535
What about shomer shabbos baseball leagues for our children,…is that acting like Goyim as well??
I guess the kosher lamp is well…not kosher according to you…February 4, 2011 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #738536
I’m getting hungry….February 4, 2011 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #738537
wolf – I assured that a few posts earlier to onegoal.February 4, 2011 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #738538
I’d like to make this more fun, by proposing that what Real Brisker is suggesting is almost apikorsus.
The Maharshal, quoted in Shach YD 89:17 http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9145&st=&pgnum=398 discusses the issue of waiting after eating cheese before eating meat.
The maharshal says that it is “k’mo minus”. The idea seems to be that it is almost apikorsus to suggest that things are assur, which are not.
RB: What you are doing is putting your own reasons into the mitzvos and extending them arbitrarily.February 4, 2011 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #738539
wolf – I assured that a few posts earlier to onegoal.
So you did. I missed it — my apologies.
So, at the end of the day, your problem is not with Subway, but with fake milk/meat.
The WolfFebruary 4, 2011 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #738540
popa- You are certainly correct. The pischei teshuva makes the same observation about someone who won’t eat a meat dish that has milk in it, but is battul.
realbrisker- I am curious what you would say about such a case, is halacha still not good enough for you or this you’ll be maskim is going overboard? Where do you draw the line? Will you only argue on a gemara, or is the pischei teshuva also some krum modern-orthodox posek who didn’t understand true torah the way a “real brisker” would? How about the Rambam who said that one should not say I don’t eat pig because I don’t like it, rather he should say I want to eat pig but the Torah doesn’t let met? Was he also a subway-craving glutton who was blinded by his desire for food? Where does your chutzpah end?February 4, 2011 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #738541
this thread was very entertaining, thanks for breaking up my busy work day….February 4, 2011 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #738542
Thank you for bringing up this gemorah in chulin, I will iyh learn up this sugya over shabbos, with what the rishonim have to explain on it.February 4, 2011 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #738543midwesternerParticipant
Newhere: Got your yichus mixed up. Yalsa or Yalta was Rav Nachman’s wife. Rava was a son in law of Rav Chisda, not the other way around.February 4, 2011 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #738544
Daas Yochid…I agree 100% thought the same thing right away…
Do you also agree that there might be an issue, even in the kosher Subways, with maris ayin (fake cheese with meat)? I know you’re not my Rov (at least I don’t think so – you never know with screen names 🙂 ), but it might make for an interesting discussion.
Daas. I’m not his Rav.
My apologies; I wasn’t trying to blame the messenger.
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