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  • #1075171

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Thank you, DY.

    It could theoretically be included in “????? ??????”, as quoted in Kiddushin 33a – As Rashi explains the Gemara:

    ????? ???? ????? – ?? ?? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???????? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ??????

    #1075172

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No, I don’t think that’s the point. Is that even applicable to lavin?

    An umbrella is not objectionable because it’s a ?????? ????? ?????.

    I don’t remember this kind of objection to the Shabbos lamp or potato starch cakes on Yom Tov.

    #1075173

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: Can you cook on an electric stove on yom tov? if yes, then the tosafos clearly comes into play, If no, why?

    #1075174

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yes, because bishul is muttar. Boneh, however, is not. You are not allowed to turn on, turn off, or adjust an electric stove on Y”T.

    #1075175

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid! That is my point- boneh IS MUTTAR ON YOM TOV. no one disagree with that tosefos and that gemoro!

    #1075176

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Cooking is bishul, not boneh. So how are you demonstrating a heter for boneh?

    Are you allowed to build a kitchen in Yom Tov? Of course not. But you are allowed to cook in a kitchen which was built prior to Yom Tov, using an electric burner which was turned on prior to Yom Tov, because you haven’t done any binyan.

    To clarify, the issur of electricity may not be boneh d’Oraisa, but my point is valid nonetheless.

    Again, the vast majority of poskim, for whichever reason, asser electricity not only on Shabbos, but on Yom Tov as well, and this is now the universally accepted psak.

    #1075177

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: I did some quick research on this matter and these are teh following salient points: the gemoro (shabbos 95A) says that it is a “melocho” to make cheese on shabbos (“chayiv”) because it is building something- and “boneh’ is a melocho. Tosefos deducts from this that “boneh” would NOT be a melocho that is prohibited on yomtov- because making cheese would be allowed on yom tov and hence so will this “melocho”. Tosefos prohibits,however, building a house because of “uvdo dechol”. Still ,it is clear taht making cheese on yom tov would be muttar!

    The Rambam “paskens’ like this gemoro and says making cheese is a ‘melocho d’oraisa”. Interestingly ,neither the Rif, nor the Tur ,nor the Shulchan Aruch mentions this rambam and his psak. Why? Well, courtesy of Artscroll notes, it is pointed out that many Poskim hold that “boneh” is only a melocho when doing it on the ground (like a house), not on keilim and here with cheese it would be like making a kli-hence not a d’oraisa. In short, these are the rishonim on this matter.

    Now, on to electricity. I checked the “SHmiras shabbos’. First of all, he clearly allows cooking on an electric burner (sima 3). However, he maintains, following the bulk of acharonim, that making an electric connection is ossur on yom tov- mainly because it is “Nolad’-starting from nothing (same as striking a match). Therefore, he also maintains that it owuld be ossur to increase or decrease an electric burner because , he says, this act either extinguishes or increases THE AMOUN OF ELECTRIC COILS.

    I understand his reasoning , although I may say, that the burners I know DO NOT ADD OR EXTINGUISH individual burners- they only increase, or decrease, the ampage throught the same coils.

    On to my comment about ‘boneh’ on yom tov. This was in reaction to a commenter who said that it was a mistake to say that electricty is muttar on yom tov. To which I replied that those who are mattir electricity on yom tov (and they were some pretty big Poskim)do not think it is a mistake- even if we accept the chazon ish that it is boneh! because- further to the tosefos (and the rambam), boneh would also be muttar on yom tov.

    All of the above gives way to the issur on “Nolad’ on yom tov, which has nothing to do with the melocho.

    #1075178

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So the bottom line is:

    1) We pasken boneh is assur on Yom Tov

    2) We pasken electricity is assur on Yom Tov, regardless of whether the issur is boneh d’Oraisa or not

    3) Had the “Kosher” switch been marketed for Yom Tov use, it likely would not have helped.

    #1075179

    cherrybim
    Participant

    DY:You are not allowed to turn on, turn off, or adjust an electric stove on Y”T.

    Slight correction. One cannot adjust an electric stove on Yom Tov when the burners operate with two coils. However, one is permitted to adjust an electric stove when the burners operate with one coil.

    #1075180

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Cherrybim:you are correct!this should be the right psak!

    DaasTorah:Boneh per se is not prohibited if we follow tosefos reasoning,nonetheless, connecting electric circuits on yom tov would be assur because of nolad.

    In actuality , this newfangled switch has little to do with our present predicament

    #1075181

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    CB, only under very limited circumstances, specifically, that you know that your adjustment will not initiate or stop a flow of electricity. The indicator light doesn’t ordinarily help for this, as it merely indicates if it’s set to maintain the programmed temperature.

    See Star K website for details and further explanation.

    #1075182

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ROB, you’re mattir building a house on Yom Tov??!!

    #1075183

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: It has noting to do with me. Tosafos on daf ninety five says it could be muttor on yom tov,except that this would be uvde dechol.

    #1075184

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You’re the one claiming this Tosafos is halacha l’maaseh.

    #1075185

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: If you accept the gemoro and the Rambam that making cheese on shabbos is melocho d’oraisa, then, clearly, tosafos’ reasoning is right and the only reason why you could not build a house (actually fix a house-see tosafos- because building would not be allowed as you could do it erev yom tov) would be because of an extraneosu reason- such as “uvdo dechol”. However, if you hold like some of the other rishonim that “boneh” does not apply to “keilim”, then ,clearly, making cheese on shabbos is not a d’oraisa and hence, we could not deduct anything from it,as far as building (fixing) a house. However, we could still apply it to electric current,as far as an actual melocho goes.

    #1075186

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The Ramba”m holds boneh on Yom Tov is d’Oraisa.

    ‘????? ????? ??”? ??? ?’ ???? ?

    ?? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????. ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ????, ????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ????, ?? ????? ?? ???? ???. ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????

    #1075187

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: You re right in pointing out that the Rambam holds that building would be a d’oraisa-unlike the tosofes. However, this may be because- as I see it- the Rambam dos NOT hold “mitoch” on any other melocho, except “hotzaah and havoro”. see mishne 4. Actually, the more I read about this, the more interesting the subject becomes. By the ay, I never said that one can actually build house on yom tov- see tosefos. However, it may have applications as far as electric currents.

    #1075188

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #1075189

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: thank you for the link!

    great to see that the Avnei Nezer deals with that question! In actuality, it has little bearing on everyday life as tosefos clearly does not allow building or fixing a house on yom tov.

    However, it still may have significance for electric currents- even if you hold like the Chazon Ish that it is “boneh”-if you hold like the rishonim that there is no boneh for “keilim” Unless you accept that electric currents are not keilim because they go bsck to the electric generators that may be considered more like houses. But this is a question for another day.

    #1075190

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    To anyone reading this, the Avnei Nezer to which I linked suggests that there is no mitoch from a toldah, only from an av.

    ROB, so we agree that l’maaseh, there shouldn’t be a chilluk between Shabbos and Y”T?

    #1075191

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid; on the larger picture, yes, I agree with you because-if you read the shmiras shabbos carefully-initiating an electic current is a “maase nolad” – akin to striking a match. although I am not sure whether that makes it a melocho d’oraisa on yom tov. He allows to use an electric stove but not to alter the current. However, this can be only be right if there is more than one coil-as cherrybim said- because if there is only one coil and you change the temperature by increasing the wattage ,why should it be “ossur”?

    The question of electric currents was settled about a hundred years ago and ,regardless whether the science was correctly identified, “puk mo amo diber”. My only contribution was to say that ,on yom tov, the matter of electric currents is uniform-even if you believe it is boneh like the chazon ish. Of course, “mavir” and “mevashel ” are obviously allowed on yom tov. I quoted the tosefos to say that boneh,too, could be allowed on yom tov because of “mitoch”.

    There may be questions on yom tov like, for example, a dimmer. Why should it be ossur to increase the strength of the light on yom tov? The electric current is already present, you are only increasing the wattage? I never heard a good answer on this. Maybe you can enlighten me. Decreasing the light is more complicated as it involves “kibui” and this is a discussion for another day.

    #1075192

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Tosafos wasn’t talking about Mitoch, only about Tzorach Achila Mamesh. Even if the electric burner would be Muttar to turn on that would only apply to the burner but not to turning on lights.

    I just wonder about an induction stovetop, where you aren’t competing any circuit. In that case, if it is set to a setting that it cannot boil, would you be allowed to warm up water on Shabbos Lechatchilah? I guess that’s where Zilzul comes in.

    #1075193

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Why is changing the temperature on they burner ok while playing with the volume on a radio is not considered fine? Are you talking about while it isn’t active?

    Would it be ok to put in or take out lightbulbs while my timer is off?

    #1075194

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t think lowering or raising the temperature changes the wattage, I think it changes how long it’s on for, and you run the risk of turning the current on or off.

    Tosafos was referring to mitoch. If making cheese, which is ochel nefesh, is boneh, all boneh should be muttar mitoch. Tosafos felt compelled to say that ein hachi nami, and boneh on Y”T is d’rabbonon.

    #1075195

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    He uses the term Mitoch, but his example is for eating. In Beitza 12 Tosafos says that Mitoch is for a small need, not for eating. This is why I take it that here he means it as an extension of the Hetter of Ochel Nefesh, not with all the implications of Mitoch. That said, however, this conclusion was from memory, and I probably wouldn’t have brought it up had I remembered the Lashon here.

    #1075197

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Tosafos ask that mitoch you can make cheese, you should be able to rebuild your house to eat in it. Classic mitoch.

    For convenience, if anyone wants to see inside:

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=2&daf=95&format=pdf

    #1075198


    Participant

    What use is the random-factor, if it is a certainty that one pulse will connect? It must be mathematically guaranteed to turn the light on, or else it wouldn’t sell. If so, does it make any difference at all that some pulses won’t go through?

    My answer for this question is going to be based more on electronics than the halacha.

    It seems to me that the randomness issue is simply a red herring. Computers don’t act randomly they simply follow instructions, you can see this in just about any programming language’s random function if you generate random numbers starting with the same initial seed value. What computers can do is simulate randomness to a user that doesn’t have access to the seed value. Therefore if you write a program to generate a series of random numbers those numbers are predetermined and not truly random. The next logical step is that if the switch’s wait cycle actually ends, it was predetermined to end, just that the mathematical formula to determine if and when is too complex for a mere human to know if and when it would in fact end.

    BTW, I did read the patent.

    #1075199

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Dash, if the fact that it’s not really random is halachically significant, that would still leave it as a safek psik reisha rather than a vaday psik reisha.

    I happen to agree with yekke2 that it’s a vaday psik reisha, which is worse.

    #1075200

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Why do you call eating classic Mitoch? Tosafos in Beitza describes the Mitoch of Beis Hillel for a Tzorech Kol Dehu.

    #1075201

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    I need something clarified, does the switch only allow one change over shabbos? Either from off to on or vice versa? Or can it be switched repeatedly on and off when in shabbos mode?

    Because I don’t understand how it can work if it can be switched repeatedly.

    #1075202

    Joseph
    Participant

    I believe it can be switched repeatedly. It works the same on the first change as all other changes.

    #1075203

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Joseph,

    How does it work then?

    I thought the idea was that there is a randomly emitted light emitted, not a constant light nor a light on a constant schedule. When you the switch, the eventual emitted light can be detected by the sensor and that is what either turns on or off the light.

    Now that the switch is up, what is going to change that status? Doesn’t the light source continue to emit light sporadically? And the when you move the switch to the other position, how does that let the sensor know to change the status, presumably, as far as the sensor should know the fact that no light has hit it can either be a function of the sensor being blocked or just that the it has randomly not emitted.

    Although I guess the sensor can be tied to the emitter that it is aware when the random emission is made and if it does not detect an emission that is made, the switch will then again change for on to off or vice versa.

    That would seem to defeat the randomness to me.

    #1075204

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    HaLeiVi, how is that different than this Tosafos?

    ?? ?? ??? ???? ??”? ??? ???? ?????? ??”? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????

    NDG, the switch is a piece of plastic which, when in the down position, blocks the pulse. No sensor is activated or deactivated.

    The randomness is indeed meaningless, since within a short amount of time, the light will certainly go off or on.

    #1075205

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    DY,

    The sensor has to detect the pulse, which then causes the light to turn on. (or off)

    But it is not a constant stream of light. If it were, it would be simple, block the light the switch does one operation, unblock the light, however this switch does something else.

    The switch is supposed to be working with a random pulse of light. So the only thing that can activate the switch would be the light pulse hitting the sensor. Which can only happen after the plastic of the switch is moved. But by definition, it would seem that light NOT hitting the sensor cannot do anything because the light is not constantly being emitted. If it worked that way, the switch would then become like a blinker. It couldn’t even be set to change after a defined amount of time, because the emissions/pulses are supposed to be random. So it would seem that switch would only be able to effectuate one change over a Shabbos.

    #1075206

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Here Tosafos goes out of his way to mention eating. I don’t think we say Mitoch from any possible Hetter, only from common usage.

    #1075207

    cherrybim
    Participant

    DaasYochid: “CB, only under very limited circumstances, specifically, that you know that your adjustment will not initiate or stop a flow of electricity. The indicator light doesn’t ordinarily help for this, as it merely indicates if it’s set to maintain the programmed temperature.”

    You are correct. It’s interesting how the Psak has evolved. Years ago, in communities where gas ranges were not an option, the Psak for electric ranges was simply as how I previously stated. Now, the accepted way is either as shown in the Star K publication or to obtain the Shabbos Mode electric oven per Rav Heinemann.

    #1075208

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “What exactly is the problem with doing things Hashem didn’t asser?”

    See the Ramban at the beginning of parshas kedoshim for starters.

    Regarding Rav Moshes psak of kibui on yom tov. No, it is not a secret, nevertheless his own talmidim have told me (and in fact was part of the psak I was given) that it was in the category of halacha vain morin kein publicly to the masses precisely because he was concerned with zilzul. someone would say “litzorech the food” cavalierly and say “rav moshe permitted it” when in fact he did not.

    Most importantly, it really doesnt matter what we do or do not think of this switch. It is what my posek says that matters to me and what your posek says, that matters to you.

    #1075209

    BaalSechel
    Participant

    Shabbos Switch is a terrible idea. Can we turn on an oven, or any other appliance at will. Just think, you can now have fresh food, for your Shabbos day meal. Wait til the video for that one comes out, depicting how boring chulent is, or showing mouth- watering, fresh foods cooked shortly before the meal, using SHABBOS OVENtm. Only one thing apropriate about this is its name – They are about put Shabbos on the off position. I have no doubt that many Rabbonim will be coming out against it shortly.

    #1075210

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    HaLeiVi, so how is the mitoch from boneh different than any other? Every mitoch needs some sort of tzorech Y”T.

    NDG, the plastic piece prevents the pulse from reaching the sensor. If that’s not a grama (it is, but for the sake of discussion…), why couldn’t it be done multiple times?

    #1075211

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Wait til the video for that one comes out, depicting how boring chulent is,

    You may find this hard to belive, but not everyone likes Chulent

    #1075212

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Mitoch in Beitza wasn’t for eating. It was for Oneg Yom Tov. It was about carrying a child for any kind of satisfaction. The Torah was Mattir Ochel Nefesh.

    #1075213

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    DY,

    You are not understanding my question.

    I do not see how the mechanism can actually do it. I am not asking halachacially, I am asking bimetzios. I am asking that if it works by the sensor sensing a pulse of light, that’s fine, the light goes on. What makes it go off? Moving the plastic in front off the sensor won’t work, because it is not a continuous beam of light, it was only intermittent. So most of the time there is no pulse of light, what is now going to make the light turn off when you move the plastic piece down again?

    #1075214

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Ah, I was misunderstanding your question. I think I had the same question, which, if I understand properly this time, is not necessarily different than asking how the switch turns the light off. I believe the video only showed how it turns the light on.

    I guess the system is programmed to recognize that the light is on, and detect whether there are any successful receptions of the pulse within a certain period of time, and if not (which would occur if the plastic was blocking the pulse), to turn the light off.

    This is just a guess.

    #1075215

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    HaLeiVi, Tosafos adds, “??? ???? ??? ????”. You’d be able to eat, just not as comfortably.

    #1075216

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Tosafos adds that because he can find no other way for a house to affect food or eating. The eating part is no doubt added in. He could have just as well said ??? ???? ??? ???? without the eating part. And it’s not like Mitoch has to translate back to food, since we find in Beitza 12 that it applies to Tiyul and for the sake of a Mitzvah.

    I guess I don’t have a rock solid case but not do I think we start building ????s from any possibility of Hetter. The ???? by ????? is not was you think of when you learn of ???? nor when you think of food preparation. It is a specific crossing point that between ???? and ???? ???. It would be more ????? to Assur cheese making — since ???? is not a food ????? — than it is to build a Hetter out of an exception.

    #1075217

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Are you saying the Avnei Nezer? He asks that according to the Rambam that megaven is a d’Oraisa of boneh, we should build a heter for all boneh on Yom Tov mitoch, yet the Rambam says boneh on Yom Tov is d’Oraisa. (Tosafos got out of the problem by saying it’s only d’rabbonon).

    The Avnei Nezer says we can’t build a heter through mitoch from a toldah (megaven is at most a toldah).

    Is this what you mean when you say, “The ???? by ????? is not was you think of when you learn of ????”, that it’s not an av, rather a toldah?

    #1075218

    zaidy64
    Member

    @nishtdayngesheft: When you move “the plastic in front of the sensor” the metzios is that the switch will always be able to intitiate the opposite event (i.e. vs. unblocking) because not only is “the system … programmed to recognize that the light is on” as @DaasYochid guesses, but in fact the attempt to send/receive a pulse via a pair of transmitter/receiver devices inside the switch is always essentially an instantaneous programmed event sequence.

    Thus immediately after initiating such an event (“Attempt a Transmission” in the loshon of patent US7872576) the [switch] system is programmed to infer and record (i.e. into processor memory) the position of the blocker. As @RebbeYid pointed out [last week] this is as if the “single computer controlling everything says, I’m going to shine a light into my own eye, and if this human puts something in the way, I won’t turn on his light…”.

    All of the random delays described in the patent, have no effect on the metzios of an individual Transmission event. Instead, the kinds of randomness they introduce include:

    [A] How long to wait (i.e. from time warning light turns green) to initiate a Transmission event.

    How long to delay after the Transmission event, to decide if the results of that event indicate the switch should be changed.

    [C] Pseudo-randomly decide if an indicated switch change event (e.g. turn on/off externally controlled light) should actually take effect now, or if to instead re-start a new cycle (i.e. [A] wait/transmit/etc.)

    So while at the macro level the change in the external circuit (i.e. lights on/off) may theoretically be delayed for a very long time (i.e. by random cycle of A/B/C happening to occur numerous times) it would seem IMHO that the changes happening within the switch at the micro level are of at least equal concern, and need to be dealt with in any complete analysis of why the entire mechanism might (or not) be muttar lechatchilah.

    #1075219

    HaLeiVi
    Participant
    #1075220

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    HaLeiVi, how do we determine a melocho’s natural purpose if not av/toldah?

    #1075221

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    I have seen it said here and in other places that even if the Kosher Switch is actually assur l’chatchila it would still be a good idea to have it in order to avoid accidental chilul Shabbos.

    My problem with that statement is that in order to prevent chilul Shabbos, the switch has to be in “Shabbos Mode” which means that you would have to put all the switches in your house into Shabbos Mode every week. Once you are doing that, you might as well just put one of those classic covers over the switches to prevent them being accessed at all like many frum people do nowadays. And even if lu yitzor you did go and put them all into Shabbos Mode before every Shabbos, you still only avoid the issur if the green light is on so if you are switching it “accidentally” than you aren’t checking for a green light.

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