KOSHER-SWITCH

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  • #1075222

    apushatayid
    Participant

    The newest issue of AMI Magazine that hit the news stands today covers the “kosher switch”. I saw the cover, I have no idea who wrote it, who he or she consulted in preparing the article or what it says.

    #1075223

    Joseph
    Participant

    YWM-42: I supposed you could leave it on Shabbos Mode all week, if that was your goal. About the green light, I thought it is on the entire time when it is in Shabbos Mode. (IOW, that the green light is only there to let you know it is on Shabbos Mode.)

    #1075224

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    HaLeivi and DaasYochid: Actually, the hetter of “mitoch” could be all- encompassing. If memory serves me right,originally “mitoch” was an absolute hetter and it was tosefos that insisted you need “zorech ketzas” (maybe de-rabbonon”. The hetter was based on the fact that once the Torah permitted a specific “melocho” on yom tov- for ochel nefesh- then that “melocho” was basically “muttor me-ikro” (think of the contrast of Tumoh dechyo or hutro). That is why tosefos has a “hava aminah” to allow building a house (as I said, it means fixing as building as building could have been done me’erev yom tov). And tosefos has to assume another de-rabbonon ,such as “uvdo dechol”. The avnei nezer is a chiddush-that only with an av melocho yo usay “mitoch” and I wonder whether it holds up in all manners.

    #1075225

    zaidy64
    Member

    @joseph: clarification of the green light: While in Shabbos mode, the green light is on to definitively indicate that no internal LED transmitter will be pulsed in the near future (e.g. within the next five seconds) so it is “safe” to move the plastic blocker.

    Once the red warning light comes on (also in Shabbos mode) an internal LED may potentially be pulsed in the near future though (as detailed in my earlier post) this Transmission event may be randomly delayed (i.e. the pulse will happen and not safe to move- although e.g. it could be up to 30 seconds later).

    #1075226

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    42, even in normal mode, the way the switch works is by blocking or unblocking the pulse, so although it would still be assur, it would be a lighter issur of grama.

    #1075228

    Joseph
    Participant

    Is there any reason not to leave the switch in Shabbos Mode all week?

    #1075229

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sure – to avoid the delay.

    #1075231

    Joseph
    Participant

    How is it that Hamodia had the chutzpa to accept an ad for KosherSwitch in this week’s US paper and stores such as Eichler’s are selling it?

    #1075232

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    joseph

    Because for better or for worse Yidishkeit is not as monolithic as you’d like it to be.

    and in spite of the full scare war being waged against it there are Rabbanim who hold there is no melacha involved (R’ Oelbaum, and R” chaim shpira among others) Or that it is muttar for Cholim (R’ Nebenzal, R’ Harfanes, R’ Neuwirth) among others.

    That said I have no idea why it would be allowed (generally). The safek aspect seems like a joke to me. In order for the safek to have any validity, at some point I’d expect it not to work.

    In other words say it becomes popular and say, 200,000 people install 4 of them in their homes, they flip it on/off an average of 4 times over Shabbos for 55 shabbosos/ Yomim tovim over the next 2 decades. That is 2,200,000,000 uses for at least one of them the switch should take awhile to turn on/off ie. months or at the least days. I’m curious if the inventor would say this is the case. Somehow i doubt it

    #1075233

    Joseph
    Participant

    ubiq: So in your opinion “those rabbis” like Rav Feinstein, Rav Kaminetzky, Rav Belsky, Rav Miller, etc. are just “scare mongerers” trying to scare away Jews from following other rabbis who permit? But you are off the mark about the rabbis you cite. i.e. Rabbi Oelbaum disavowed permitting it, said the developer misrepresented his view, and said it is Mechallel Shabbos with the issur of Zilzul Shabbos:

    KOSHER-SWITCH

    In any event, you’re okay with the Shabbos Switch being advertised in the Hamodia etc. and sold in local seforim stores?

    #1075234

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’d be shocked to see an ad in next week’s edition. I’m sure it was printed before the kol koreh came out.

    #1075235

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I did see yesterday one of the Rabbis in the video, however in light of all the negative publicity recently I did not feel it proper to ask him about it

    #1075236

    Joseph
    Participant

    Do you think the list of heimishe stores (including some seforim stores) in the ad have stopped selling the device?

    #1075237

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ZD, if you’re referring to either R’ Oelbaum or R’ Steinberg, both have publicly distanced themselves from any perceived “endorsement”.

    Joseph, they never started selling them. They haven’t been manufactured yet.

    #1075238

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    “So in your opinion “those rabbis” like Rav Feinstein, Rav Kaminetzky, Rav Belsky, Rav Miller, etc. are just “scare mongerers” trying to scare away Jews from following other rabbis who permit? “

    No. Who are you quoting when you say “Those Rabbis” and “scaremongers”

    That said I do know some of those “scaremongers” who get so much chiyus from finding bugs in orange juice and bothering Rabbonim about new kosher-switches, and no it does not coem from a good place.

    This may comeas a surprise but the Rabbanim you mention do not spend their free time straining orange juice or watching youtube videos about new idegogo projects. nor do they write up kol korehs to forward to each other for signage and have AMi and mishpacha write several pages on the subject. There is clearly a war being waged against kosher switch and I do not think it is a war leshem Shomayim.

    OBviously this in no way means those Rabbanim should or even could be ignored ch”v.

    We dont have to argue about what Rabbi Oelbaum said. His words are freely available for all to see. Welcoem to the 21st century Here is a verbatim transcript:

    “It is clear it is not a grama Mitzad Hilchos shabbos there is no question of any melacha being doen by using that switch.” (Again I dont understand why it isnt a psik reisha which there are deios that hold makes it assur not grama)

    The developer did NOT misrepresent his view, (though he did misrepresent others incuding R” PEretz Steinberg) the video DID go on to say”mitzad Sheini i recommend everyone asks their own to find out whether it is in the spirit of Shabbos although there is no real melacha but ask your own rav regarding practical usage.”

    The post you link to says almsot the same thing

    Zilzul shabbos is subjective. Say I hold it is zilul not to have it since it enhances Shabbos so much. And besides he said to ask my Rav who lets say also says its zilzul Shabbos not to have it

    “In any event, you’re okay with the Shabbos Switch being advertised in the Hamodia etc. and sold in local seforim stores?”

    yes though I wouldnt use it. Rabbi Oelbaum doesnt need my approval he is certainly a bar hachi ditto for the other supporters. Though again I dont understand why he allows it mitzad melacha.

    #1075239

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    DY

    I figured as such and did not want to bother him , I am sure he has gotten enough grief over it (I had not heard they distanced themselves)

    #1075240

    Joseph
    Participant

    ubiq: The net effect of your words is that rabbonim such as Rav Feinstein, Rav Kaminetzky, Rav Belsky, Rav Miller, etc. are scaremonger enablers. That, and that you think that Rav Feinstein, Rav Kaminetzky, Rav Belsky, Rav Miller and a bunch of other gedolei rabbonim are nincompoops that fall for scaremongers tactics – and all those rabbonim couldn’t see the “truth”, as you do, and see right through those scaremongers and stupidly sign their haskama to untruths.

    #1075241

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    What?

    not that they need my haskama obviously, but as I said I dont understand why R’ Oelbaum et al did permit it so I’m not sure why you call it “untruths” or “stupidly”

    That said, nothing you said changes the truth of my last post. Regardless of what the “net effect” The only thing that is debatable is whether the people waging the war are doing it lesehm shomayim or not. Do you think R’ Dovid Feinstein and R’ Shmuel Kamenetsky etc were reading the coffee room and decided to publsih the kol koreh and coincidentally Ami and Mishpacha decided to publish pages on it too? Again as I said previously, just because a war is being waged, by what I believe are “scare mongers””in no way means those Rabbanim should or even could be ignored ch”v.”

    Nor is this a new problem when the copepods issue in NYC water arose a decade or so ago, I heard from Rabbi Belsky that there is no problem with the water and those who claim there is are “terrorists worse than Al Qaeda striking fear in the hearts of rum yidden” That is a verbatim quote i heard from him in person at a public shiur.

    #1075242

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    In ???? ???? ??? ?’ ??? ?”?, he quotes several of the ????? ??????? as holding that a device whose purpose is to perform a certain action cannot be considered a grama no matter the mechanism it uses. It would be a full fledged melachah.

    #1075243

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    ubiquitin- When there is a major halachik issue, it is good people go to the Poskim or bring up the problem. When someone sees what they percieve to be a problem (bugs in oj, bugs in water, kosherswitch) and they want to know if there is a real issue. So they go the Rabbonim and they give their psak.

    #1075244

    Joseph
    Participant

    Do you think R’ Dovid Feinstein and R’ Shmuel Kamenetsky etc were reading the coffee room and decided to publsih the kol koreh and coincidentally Ami and Mishpacha decided to publish pages on it too?

    Should I think like you that R’ Dovid Feinstein and R’ Shmuel Kamenetsky and the other gedolei rabbonim are manipulable simpletons and whom scaremongers can twist these multitudes of gedolei rabbonim to do their bidding?

    #1075245

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    This all happened within a couple of weeks of KosherSwitch starting its funding and publicity campaign. I don’t know why the timing should be an issue.

    #1075246

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    That what I describe happens is EXACTLY what happens I am close to R dovid shlita and have discussed this with him several times. I also know some troublemakers. The only question is if the troublemakers mean well.

    At any rate this is a side issue that doesnt really change the subject at hand. Since bottom line is although there clearly is a campaign against the kosher switch that obviously doesnt automatically make it ok.

    #1075248

    Joseph
    Participant

    Mods: Toned down; hopefully this passes.

    ubiq: So your response is that

    a) You know Rav Dovid

    b) Rav Dovid admitted to you he is manipulated

    c) Rav Dovid signs anyways to these manipulating troublemakers

    d) You’re unsure if the troublemakers are lsheim shamayim

    e) We should listen to Rav Dovid even though he is being manipulated

    f) Rav Dovid and all the other gedolim who sign (who Points C through E equally apply to) are obviously gullible

    My response:

    You’re wrong on Points B through F. Neither Rav Dovid nor the other of multitudes of signatory gedolim have been manipulated. They considered the issue deeply and thoroughly and reached the halachic conclusion (one of their jobs is being halachic decisors, remember? this is why they’re here for us – to hear these issues and issue decisions) that it is assur.

    #1075249

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    A. Yes

    B. You keep saying manipulated I never saud that

    C. If its true why shouldnt he sign, regardless of the nature of those presenting it?

    D. I am sure that they arent leshem shomaim but I cant prove it. So this point is debatable.

    E. Not neccesarily are you confusing rav fovid with a pope chas vesholom? You should listen to your rav and if he feels ill equiped he will hopefly direct you to somone who ios, possibly rav dovid.

    F. Not at all as ive said repeatedly.

    You are setting.up.straw men and arguing against them all of which.is aside the main pont namely that there are some who allow it.

    Points b through.f as you stated them are not my points, they are straw men set up by you.

    (I havent discussed kosher switch with rav dovid)

    #1075250

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    We interrupt this debate to bring you a halachic point…

    Some have claimed that most bulbs today are not incandescent, which is considered aish and a d’Oraisa according to all accepted opinions, but rather fluorescent, so we would be dealing with a d’rabbonon.

    This might be true of LED (if electricity itself is not d’Oraisa, which is a big machlokes), but fluorescent bulbs do in fact have glowing filaments on either end, and are considered aish.

    #1075251

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    This argument is detracting from any real duscussion and doesnt really have a practical ramification.

    Can we agree that there is an organized campaign being launched against kosher switch?

    Note: I did not say anything about motive, whether the campaign is right.or wrong, tactics used or “manipulation”

    #1075252

    feivel
    Participant

    Now that this product has entered a more public phase there are many who have reacted and spoken against it. This does not make it a “campaign”. And there is certainly no reason to consider the reactions to be “organized” by anyone, (such as a steering committee) as as implied by an “organized campaign”. I’m sure you have your reasons for seeing the reactions as the “launching” of an “organized campaign”, but I’m also sure you can understand that most of us reject that view.

    #1075253

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Feivel

    ” but I’m also sure you can understand that most of us reject that view.”

    I really can’t. Getting a kol koreh signed by 7 Gedolim across several states, not to mention articles in the leading Frum periodicals. all withinn one week of the newest Kosher switch launch takes organization. (The Youtube video was released April 13, this very thread is a week old) takes organization.

    I’m sure a few naive people think Gedolim facetime each other new youtube videos they come across and then type up kol korehs that they forward each other, but I doubt “most” people think that way.

    I don’t think I’m saying anything controversial. All I said in the post that Joseph attacked was “in spite of the full scare war being waged against it there are Rabbanim who hold there is no melacha involved “

    Joseph understood this as “So in your opinion “those rabbis” like Rav Feinstein, Rav Kaminetzky, Rav Belsky, Rav Miller, etc. are just “scare mongerers” trying to scare away Jews from following other rabbis who permit?” I do find it telling that Joseph immediately went that way, but it was not me who said that

    #1075254

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It’s not that hard to understand. Numerous baalebattim, seeing the promotional materials for KosherSwitch, asked their rabbonim for guidance. They, in turn, did research, including contacting some of the supposed endorsers, and ultimately, the gedolei haposkim. One was probably ambitious enough to write up (or have written up) a kol koreh to be presented to the poskim to sign.

    At the same time, one or more of these rabbonim, hearing that the gedolei haposkim asser, approach Ami and Mishpacha to have the articles appear. As a hot topic, they’re happy to oblige, and sell magazines. Alternatively, they become aware on their own of the issue, and issue their latest issue with articles on the issue.

    Not so difficult to “organize”.

    #1075255

    besalel
    Participant

    DY: i think you underestimate the role played by some including rabbi rosen and zman switch. rabbi rosen’s opportunism was self evident. the periodical articles were authored by the zman switch rav hamachshir. whether your poisik allowed the KS or not, we were all played and most of the khal knows this.

    #1075256

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    I never said it was difficult to organize, it is a lot of work though in VERY little time. This does take organization.

    At any rate, I am curious as to your view, do you think there was an organized campaign being launched against kosher switch?

    #1075257

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    And the author of Shvus Yitzchak was paid off by whom?

    It happens to be that I originally thought like you do, that to to say there’s melachah mamash doesn’t make sense, considering all the devices used for refuah/bitachon, but I looked into it, and there are some very legitimate, apolitical sources to asser here, and they’re more compelling than the reasons to be mattir.

    Even Rav Shlomo Zalman, who held electricity is d’rabbonon and was mattir these devices, only did so out of great dochek, but in some places writes that it should be a direct melachah if the device us made to do this.

    #1075258

    sam4321
    Participant

    I believe Rav Shlomo Zalman held its a minhag not to use electricity.

    #1075259

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Dy

    was that to me? It sounds like melacha mamesh to me according to most shitos. I don’t understand Rabbi Oelbaum and those who mattir it mitzad melacha, I read through their literature and the teshuvos on the subject, and am very not convinced.

    however that does not change, the clear campaign being launched, kol korehs do not spontaneously appear this quickly as you note above. I am curious if you see it too

    #1075260

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    As far as my “view” as to whether or not it was organized, obviously, all four poskim weren’t mechaven to the same nusach and coincidentally sent it to the printer at the same time, and then he decided to save paper and put all four signatures on the same sign.

    Rather, rabbonim, concerned that their kehillos would believe the misleading promotional material, arranged for a public kol koreh before the devices were actually sold. I’m told that attempts were made to reach the inventor of the switch before it went public.

    #1075261

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The earlier post was to besalel.

    Ubiquitin, I’m actually taking an even stricter stance than you as far as melachah. You’re saying it’s a grama, I’m saying it’s a maaseh.

    #1075262

    Getzel
    Participant

    I hear that Rabbi Weiss the Chief Rabbi of Montreal (head of the MK) who is very knowledgeable in technology came out very strongly this past Shabbos against the switch.

    #1075264

    besalel
    Participant

    DY: that is clearly not the position of rabbi sz or rabbi ovadia yosef and until 2 weeks ago was also not the general consensus as tzomet was given a green light to operate.

    #1075265

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I have no idea what R’ Ovadiah held about Tzomet, but he didn’t seem to hold of this.

    As far as what R’ SZA held, don’t take my word for it, check the Shvus Yitzchak I cited, and his quotes from Minchas Shlomo. It’s hard to understand how this fits with what Tzomet does, but not impossible. Even if R’ SZA leaned towards saying it’s a direct melachah, he also heard the other tzad, and was mattir for a tzorech gadol.

    There are two important things that come from this understanding.

    1) It’s impossible to be mattir for anything short of a big sha’as had’chak.

    2) It’s quite understandable that a posek such as R’ Belsky would not even be mattir b’sha’as had’chak, which seems to be in line with what R’ Elyashiv, R’ Moshe, the Chazon Ish, and R’ Chaim Ozer held.

    It is also quite important to point out, as I did earlier, that as far as I know, the Tzomet devices don’t activate aish, whereas this device was being marketed to turn on bulbs which would be considered aish.

    #1075266

    cherrybim
    Participant

    DaasYochid – “a device whose purpose is to perform a certain action cannot be considered a grama no matter the mechanism it uses. It would be a full fledged melachah.”

    Except in situations such as a refrigerator or water cooler according to Rav Shlomo Zalman and Rav Moshe and numerous other g’dolei poskim who hold it is permitted even if the motor is off and opening the device will cause the motor to turn on; it is permissible and this includes an oven door according to Rav Moshe.

    #1075267

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Those are not exceptions. Those actions are not for the purpose of those melachos, and those aren’t the exclusive purposes of the devices. The purpose of the KosherSwitch is expressly to turn the light on and off, and that is your express intention when you flip it.

    The purpose of an oven door is to keep the heat in and to access the food. The purpose of the button in the water cooler is to get water. Occasionally, the door will activate the fire, and the button will activate the compressor, but it’s not your kavanah, not a psik reisha, and not the purpose of the door and button.

    #1075268

    feivel
    Participant

    “I hear that Rabbi Weiss the Chief Rabbi of Montreal (head of the MK) who is very knowledgeable in technology came out very strongly this past Shabbos against the switch.”

    Apparently the extremely powerful campaign organizer (who has so far managed to elude discovery) has gotten to him also.

    #1075269

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Feivel

    is he hard to get to? He hasn’t eluded discovery many know or at least suspect who one of them is.

    At any rate. Now it has a life of its own. The campaign has been a resounding success (not that this is a bad thing).

    I’m curious though, in your view (and Joseph’s) Do you believe all four poskim were mechaven to the same nusach and coincidentally sent it to the printer at the same time, and then he decided to save paper and put all four signatures on the same sign?

    #1075270

    besalel
    Participant

    DY: there were a few rabbis who took this position before the KS controversy. (rav herschel schechter, for example). The signators to the kol kire were not among them. one of them specifically took a different view until this device came along. i am curious to see if they will stick to this position when the tummult dies down or will abandon it.

    further, many in the velt rejected the device from the outset because it felt wrong. the charges against the KS from the outset were 1) it is zilzul shabbos 2) the heter was meant for bkoim tzoirich gadol 3) the company were made up of bad guys.

    it seems like even if a device were to be invented which would address all the meolocho issues, there will be many in the tzibur who will reject it because it violates what they know about shabbos and they will therefore look for a poisk who will give them a tzad to be oisser. rav sz once famously said about another device, it is a kula shein hatzibur yachol lamoid buh. the fact that so many people use an eiruv which was oiker an entire melocho to which massechet shabbos devotes most of its attention and relies on daas yichidus built upon hekeilim built upon daas yichidus shows that when it comes to some things, the letter of law matters less than what we feel comfortable with. at the present time, the tzibur, for whatever reason, feels comfortable with an eiruv but not flicking on lights. i know that i, for one, am one of those people.

    #1075271

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t know which of the signatories took a different view, or how that’s even relevant. The kol koreh was kind of pareve on the issue of direct melachah, since even grama is normally assur. The kol koreh acknowledges the use of grama devices in hospitals in E.Y., but nevertheless assers the KosherSwitch.

    Again, see Shvus Yitzchak (it’s on Otzar Chochmoh, in case you have access) who quotes Rav Moshe, Rav Elyashiv, Rav Chaim Ozer, the Chazon Ish, and even Rav Shlomo Zalman leaning in that direction, that using “grama” devices is actually, al pi din, direct melachah.

    This is not merely about comfort level.

    #1075272

    feivel
    Participant

    “I’m curious though, in your view (and Joseph’s) Do you believe all four poskim were mechaven to the same nusach and coincidentally sent it to the printer at the same time, and then he decided to save paper and put all four signatures on the same sign?”

    I don’t have a view. I have no interest in the process with which a Kol Koreh comes to be. My only interest is in what the Poskim are telling me to do. And incidentally to defend the Gedolim against those that judge their motives, abilities, and Gadlus. Whether openly or with thinly veiled cunning.

    #1075273

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Feivel

    Nowhere did I judge the gedolim’s motives nor abilities nor agdlus.

    If you dont have a view. Why are you hocking ah cheinek?

    you say “I have no interest in the process with which a Kol Koreh comes to be. ” I do, I am fascinated by this sort of thing

    #1075274

    feivel
    Participant

    I told you why.

    #1075275

    Joseph
    Participant
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