December 10, 2010 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #593417
does anyone have any experience with Krav Maga lessons?
I saw that a nearby synagogue was offering these self-defense lessons. We don’t live in a dangerous area, but self-defense is always good to know, and helps to build confidence, etc.
Krav Maga has its roots in the Bratislava ghetto in the 1930’s, as a means of combating antisemitic violence.
Has anyone taken lessons? Have any of your synagogues offered these lessons? What do you think about it?December 10, 2010 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #985826YW Moderator-80Member
is an eclectic hand-to-hand combat system developed in Israel that involves wrestling, grappling and striking techniques, mostly known for its extremely efficient and brutal counter-attacks, as it is also taught to elite special forces around the world. It was derived from street-fighting skills developed by Imi Lichtenfeld, who made use of his training as a boxer and wrestler, as a means of defending the Jewish quarter during a period of anti-Semitic activity in Bratislava in the mid- to late-1930s. In the late-1940s, following his immigration to Israel, he began to provide hand-to-hand combat training to what was to become the IDF, developing the techniques that became known as Krav Maga. It has since been refined for both civilian and military applications”December 10, 2010 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #985827
clearly it is a distinctly Jewish art form, but is it appropriate to teach in synagogue?
I say yes, knowing how to defend one’s self when under attack is a virtue, and should be encouraged.December 11, 2010 11:23 pm at 11:23 pm #985828
Jew-do.December 12, 2010 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #985829
regarding the Yeshiva teacher who was attacked on Thanksgiving day ‘for fun,’ by two teens:December 13, 2010 12:17 am at 12:17 am #985830Midwest2Participant
Yes, self defense is a worthy endeavor, and learning martial arts is great for your self-confidence, BUT
You will be learning how to do other people serious injury and even kill them. Along with the “art of war” you must also learn “the art of peace.” You’ll have to learn to keep your temper under perfect control, even in a street situation. “He said X and I just lost it” is not a legal defense. Violence or the threat of violence has to be met on its own level. No over-reactions.
Can you take an anti-Semitic insult which is not accompanied by a threat and just turn around and walk away? If you think not, then it’s better not to learn how to kill people with your bare hands. Martial arts aren’t cute – they’re “deadly” serious.
And yes, I’ve trained martial arts. It’s a responsibility.December 13, 2010 4:31 am at 4:31 am #985831
I have a runnng interest in Martial Arts. The way I understand it, and I’m also quoting other peoples opinions,is that for quick self defense it’s very effective, but I wouldn’t recommend it because of other problems. Krav Maga is an extremely violent Martial Art. Well, duh, all Martial Arts are violent! Yes, to a point, namely so you can get away. Krav Maga on the other hand focuses on powerful strikes to critical areas that leaves the victom broken on the floor. That sounds nice but that doesn’t fly in court.It was developed in a “do or die” situation, but it overreacts to many scenarios where you end up as the aggressor.
A second issue is that it’s easy to learn, but for anyone who’s willing to invest time in an art, it teaches sharp jerky movements that actually detract from the better,and probably more effective Martial Arts. While we are on that note, most Martial Arts are NOT effective. Karate, Tae Kwan Do, etc. are designed for show and competetions. Many times the moves are actually made to defend against other moves in the art, not to protect you from a mugging. A flying kick is nice but it requires thirty minutes of streches, and flexabilty that is are ruined by cold weather and a light jacket.What mugger will give thirty minutes and a change of clothes? It’s mostely Hollywood fluff. Second, (and this is a problem in all the Martial Arts I know of but the one I will suggest at the end of the post)they are not realistic. If your attacked, YOU WILL BE HIT. Most M.A. dont focus on that, or teach you how to recover from it.Also, you need to relax so you don’t develop tunnel vision and freeze up. I personally know some guys who got mugged within the past month. They stood there in shock, unable to react, while their friend whom the spotlight was on unloaded his pockets. You need to learn to react, or all the training in the world is meaningless.
I would recomomend Systema,an extremely effective art that is actually used by the Special Forces. Their techniques aren’t limited to fighting either, they teach you about movement, and how to direct and move force. Of course this is only for someone who wants to get into an art. (by the way, after a year of taking Systema I haven’t ever lashed out at someone or used “my superiors powers for evil”).For those who don’t care about my rant, and just want to know about Krav Maga, yeah, it’s effective, but I wouldn’t learn it.
I.M.H.O.December 13, 2010 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #985832
Krav Maga is deadly as Midwest 2 said. The purpose is to teach you how to take on multiple attackers at once and either maim them seriously or kill them. It is taught to Israeli Special Forces and is extremely deadly. If someone knows Krav Maga well they can take on 3-4 or more people and kill them in a matter of 10 or so seconds or hurt them badly.
Systema is very similar and is also quite deadly and meant to take on multiple assailants.December 13, 2010 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #985833
It’s very commendable that so many commenters are worried about hurting (or worse) their attackers.
I’ve never heard of any muggers, etc. worrying about what harm they may do to US.
Being that we are all members of a group that has been beaten, raped and killed by experts for the last 3,000plus years, I would say let’s learn to defend ourselves (from proper teachers who teach proper hashkafas along with the skills) and worry about OURSELVES FIRST. Once we are at that point, we can, if necessary, discuss further the other legal and ethical issues that go with having these skills.
To paraphrase General Patton… “It is no kiddush HaSh-m for a Jew to get beaten up, it’s a kiddush HaSh-m when a would-be Jew attacker learns that attacking a Jew was a BIG mistake!December 13, 2010 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #985834twistedParticipant
I was schooled for a short time in TaiChi, and while you can see it as a dance class, it also has some quite deadly moves, along with learning to move in a fluid, energy efficient way, to fall loosely, to sidestep an attack and capitalize on the other’s energy. I have never BH had the need to test it. It could be my stature and bearing just say “don’t mess with me.” When the common bitachon folks ask if I am armed ( say when entering a supermarket heavily dressed) I say “rak hayadayim adoni”.
I have also seen a guy promoting an ancient Teimani combat art based on the figures of the aleph bet. There is a famous picture of Abdullah senior flanked by some stern looking bearded bodygaurds. They are identified as Teimani Jewish warriors.December 13, 2010 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #985835
You make a good point. But in all Martial Arts they always teach that this is only self defense. Be careful dont go overboard…Street fighting like Krav Maga is much more lethal than Martial Arts and if you seriously hurt someone you can end up in jail.December 13, 2010 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #985836
I understand what you are saying, but more than I worry about ending up in jail, I worry far more about the defenseless yeshiva bachurim and baalabatim who have “EASY VICTIM” written all over their faces.
They, in their innocence, read the comments here, and as a result are afraid to learn how to defend themselves, because of an exaggerated fear of “going to jail”.
Even in a worst case scenario,
I hold by the old expression that says…
“Better to be judged by twelve, than carried by six!”December 13, 2010 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #985837popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I would so rather be carried by six than judged by twelve.December 13, 2010 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #985838
LolDecember 13, 2010 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #985839
In Kidushin it discusses the obligations of a father toward a son.
One of the possible obligations discussed is teaching one’s son how to swim. Rash”i asks why, and answers that maybe he will be in a boat that is sinking, and if he can’t swim, he’ll drown.
I would suggest that in the world we live in, and with the rising rate of muggings in our own area (don’t believe me, ask anyone in Flatbush Shomrim) that learning self defense falls into the same category.December 14, 2010 1:02 am at 1:02 am #985840
It is true that Systema is also deadly, and made to take on multiple opponents but it offers a more balanced response. The universal reaction of Krav Maga seems to be “kill it” which makes you responsible in court for escalation. it’s also true that muggers
wont be nice and neither should you, and to that effect, Systema is similar, but I was talking about situations that aren’t as dire.like perhaps a purse snatcher in middle of a street.You can hit him, but chances are he won’t shoot you. Perhaps I was a little strong on that point though, so you can partially strike my objection.December 14, 2010 1:08 am at 1:08 am #985841
I would like to repeat that many M.A. are really a waste of time because Katas and forms wont help you in a fight. A flying kick is nice but it requires thirty minutes of streches, and flexabilty that is ruined by cold weather and a light jacket.What mugger will give thirty minutes and a change of clothes? Others like maybe Jui-Jitsue are more practical but I don’t know much about it. My main issue is that they don’t teach you how to keep from freezing up which isn’t unlikely. When someone points a gun at you, you cant even write your own name( thats not a joke its true). If you freeze up, all the training in the world is worthless.December 14, 2010 1:29 am at 1:29 am #985842Midwest2Participant
Another problem with training martial arts is “beginner’s syndrome.” You learn some, your instructor says how great you are. Then, you get held up on the street, the guy pulls a knife and you react. But, lo and behold, you get cut anyway. Or worse yet, the guy has a gun. Been there. Did not do that. You NEVER argue with a gun.
Same with old-fashioned personal assault. Is the guy bigger? Faster? Multiple? Are you that good? If you’re not, you can get really mashed.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m all for learning basic self-defense. In fact, I think it ought to be required, along with a genuine phys ed course. BUT it can get you in a lot of trouble if you’re overconfident. Better to back off, and run if you can. Only fight if you absolutely have to.December 14, 2010 3:28 am at 3:28 am #985843
I agree with Midwest2. The general rule is not to fight, because your life isn’t worth the money in your wallet. Second is, their are ways to handle a gun, and in some ways, at closer range, it’s better then a knife which is a sharp blade vs a line of fire but “You NEVER argue with a gun” is still true unless you feel he will hurt you anyway.Its a judgment thing. If he says “Hey you @#! Jew” now might be a good time to remember some self-defense.July 18, 2013 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #985844jewishfeminist02Member
I saw a Krav Maga demonstration when I was in middle school. They let us each take turns trying to break a wooden board with our hands. I was sooo jealous of my friends who succeeded.July 18, 2013 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #985845
I’ve been doing it for about two years, and I can tell you Krav Maga definitely involves no board breaking, at all. It was probably just advertising shtick.July 22, 2013 4:29 am at 4:29 am #985846WolfmanParticipant
The way posting on the CR has gone lately, a couple of posters will describe Krav Maga as a Zionist plot to destroy the peace loving religion of Islam.July 22, 2013 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #985847anon1m0usParticipant
If you are looking for a defensive MA, look into Wing Chun.July 22, 2013 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #985848
anon. I’m not going to start a debate over martial arts because inevitably people will be locked into their own pre-existing opinion, but why do you think Wing Chun would be better suited for self defense than krav maga? Let me remind you that many military and law enforcement agencies around the world have chosen variants of the Israeli krav maga as the most effective and efficient style for its enlisted. This means that anyone who argues that a different style is more effective in an unrestricted hand-to-hand encounter is arguing against the professional opinion of battle hardened combat specialists and defense consultants.July 23, 2013 2:17 am at 2:17 am #985849anon1m0usParticipant
Curiosity: The issue is self defense, not subduing a person. Krav Maga is used to disable an opponent by attacking vital parts, eys, throat, etc. For law enforcement, subduing criminals it is part of their job. The OP wants self defense so for self defense Wing Chun would be better suited.July 23, 2013 3:33 am at 3:33 am #985850
Anon, I would argue exactly the opposite. A street fight is never fair, and you can assume that a self defense situation involves fending off a bigger and stronger opponent. Often times women are targets of attacking males. That’s why learning how to subdue and disable the threat quickly and directly, regardless of being at a physical disadvantage, is of key importance. More traditional styles such as Kung Fu and Wing Chun fail to provide the disciples with the easiest tools available to defend oneself, and instead respect the far-Eastern mantra of honorable, fair fighting. In Krav Maga we learn that if you find yourself in a fair fight, you’ve already made a big mistake.July 23, 2013 3:37 am at 3:37 am #985851
Just to add: Krav Maga is a constantly evolving system that changes based on hard statistical results from its use in the field. Its very nature is its designation to be a self defense system. It is not even officially called a “martial art” because there is no “art” about it. It’s dirty and savage but extremely effective. It’s nothing but self defense. As a result, you basically never see Krav Maga practicioners in cage fighting because they wouldn’t be effective with all the rules.November 6, 2013 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #985852imnot5Member
you guys all spoke about martial arts but can you tell me how to learn it.November 7, 2013 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #985853RedlegParticipant
Krav Maga and similar styles are good because they are based on real world situations and not Bruce Lee movies. However, self defense isn’t really about technique, it’s about attitude and mind-set. Almost any technique or not technique at all is effective if the fighter acts quickly and violently. You’ve got to want to defeat your attacker and to do so by any means and at any cost. In the movie “The Shootist”, John Wayne’s character describes the fighting mind-set. Speaking of gunfighting he says,”it’s not being fast, or even accurate. I’t being willing.”
Marial Arts training is good exercise and fun. But real self-defense isn’t about executing a perfect Osoto Gari, It’s about attacking your attacker and keeping attacking until he either runs away or stops moving.November 7, 2013 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #985854
You should try to find a teacher. I don’t really know what you expected. You want me to show you the moves from here? What you don’t see? Squint harder.
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