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Obviously this topic has been beaten to death, but I would like to share my frustrations with this argument being used to defer army service
Let’s ignore the obvious problems that the Charedim want exemptions for everyone and not just those learning… or that learning doesn’t seem to replace hishtadlus in other areas like parnassah, shalom bayis, voting, and protesting.
Let’s take it as a given that learning Torah adds to our protection and is a component of our military defense. Personally, I believe this. It’s part of our Mesorah. The big problem is that it’s a very vague statements and WE DO NOT KNOW HOW IT WORKS. And this vague concept is being used as a reason for not drafting more Charedim, increasing the defense burden on others. I’ve seen posters post here that Charedim need to do a better job explaining that this is why Charedim don’t draft. But what’s to explain? There is no in depth analyses of how it works or what we need like there is in every other area of halacha!
For example… what’s the ratio of learners to soldiers? If there is a need for soldiers (either because the army itself is understaffed or the soldiers themselves are overburdend and suffering), how do we determine how many learners should transfer from the spiritual side of the protection to the physical side of protection? Is it just a blanket fact, anyone who can learn should be doing that instead of fighting or is there a calculation- we need x amount of learners to provide reasonable protection and the rest should go support the physical side of the army? Does it davka need to be army aged youth who are learning instead of fighting? What about adults who have jobs and businesses… maybe they should shut down their parnassahs to provide the spiritual learning side of our defense (like our miluim soldiers are doing) and let the younger army aged soldiers focus on the physical side? How do we know the protection of learning are those learning instead of fighting… maybe the protection comes from those learners who are fighting.. that there zechus HaTorah carries with them to the front lines?
The problem with the learning argument and using it as a defense of avoiding fighting, as much as it is true that learning protects and is necessary…. there is no critical, detailed, analysis of how it works and what we need… and when it’s much clearer to define what our army and soldeirs need, using the more amorphous vague undetailed Torah argument seems to be missing something. Why is the most stringent definition of this concept being used to avoid army service when the need for soldiers is so tangible and measurable?
No serious posek would say that anyone enrolled in Yeshiva is absolved from the mitzvah of saving Jewish lives. It is made up from whole cloth.
“Let’s take it as a given that learning Torah adds to our protection and is a component of our military defense. Personally, I believe this. It’s part of our Mesorah. The big problem is that it’s a very vague statements and WE DO NOT KNOW HOW IT WORKS.”
So what? We don’t need to know “how” it works; we know it works. That’s enough.
“what’s the ratio of learners to soldiers?”
Currently there are far far too few learners. We need to increase, greatly, the number of learners.
“there is no critical, detailed, analysis of how it works and what we need”
The Gedolei Yisroel shlita have already long made this analysis. There’s no one more qualified than Gedolei Yisroel shlita to make this analysis. The Gedolei Yisroel shlita are easily reachable. They do not live in Ivory Towers. They do not have security details. The Shin Bet does not keep people away from them. You can easily approach them and respectfully ask them. They will answer you. No need for coffee room threads.
The Maharsha makes an unambiguous statement on Sotah 21a that undermines the oft-misused slogan “Torah protects”:
“וי”ל דלא קאמר תורה מגנא אלא מפורעניות ויסורין ולא ממיתה וק”ל.” “One can say that the phrase ‘Torah protects’ was never meant to imply protection from death, but only from affliction and suffering. And this to us is incontrovertible truth.”
This clear qualification decisively undercuts the myth perpetuated by certain draft-dodging shirkers who falsely claim that full-time Torah learning offers physical protection to the State of Israel and renders military service unnecessary. These same individuals routinely revile the State and treat her actual soldiers—who bear real risk and real burden—with open contempt, as if their lives are disposable while the so-called learners’ lives are sacrosanct.
But the Maharsha’s comment pulls the rug out from under this hypocrisy. Torah does not protect from death. Period. To claim otherwise is to knowingly distort a ma’amar Chazal for ideological convenience.
And let us be frank: if the Mashiach himself were to establish a fully halakhic Jewish army and demand their service, these same individuals would likely resort to the very same excuse—“Torah protects”—to evade the call. Their issue is not with the nature of the army, but with any form of responsibility that places their own comfort and safety at risk.
Their cry of “Torah protects” is not a theological statement. It is a shield of convenience—used to hide from duty, to delegitimize those who defend them, and to cloak cowardice in sanctity.
I don’t speak for clal yisroel, but my understanding is that the MAIN problem is joining an army run by an irreligious state, since it is basically impossible to make a framework for young teenage boys still in the process of finding themselves spiritually to be able to stay strong religiously, let alone stay charedi and want to continue to be a ben torah. I understand the army has made all kinds of promises that they will come in charedi and go out charedi, but let’s be honest, who runs the army and will ultimately be in charge of whether these promises are kept and to what extent? Not Chareidim, that’s for sure.
I know personally many religious solders from the dati leumi community who were in religious units of some sort, both israeli and american. I asked every single one I now if they had a spiritual aliyah or yerida in the army, and every single one told me it was a significant yerida. So it is spiritual pikuach nefesh to join such an army. Does the physical pikuach nefesh overide the spiritual pikuach nefesh? I am not sure. And I am also not sure there currently is any physical pikuach nefesh if the chareidim don’t join. The way wars are fought today, an army doesn’t have so much to do with numbers of physical troops and man power. Are you aware of how small of a percentage of israeli soilders actually entered gaza or lebanon? I have friends who were in top units that are on reserve duty that BEGGED the army to let them go into gaza, and were crushed when they were told they weren’t needed. The issue that the secular israelis seem to be bothered by is that there is a lack of “sharing the burden”, but that’s only because they don’t realize the value of the spiritual contribution the charedim are making. That’s where the conversation of learning protects comes in.
If spirituality is the problem with joining the army the cheredim could’ve fixed it by now. i believe problem is participating under the command of a secular ideological government. The people running the country arnt willing to give in on that so the charedim dont even try and make up excuses instead. basically as the government trying to draft chareidim is just political tool to control them and the cheredi rabbanim refusing to go along with it is their political control over the government.
Most Chareidim are not even willing to recite a tefillah for our soldiers,
not even a short tefillah, and they are OUR soldiers, who fight for us.Most Chareidim are not even willing to recite a short tefillah
for the soldiers who are Shomer Shabbat and wear tefillin.Most Chareidim are not even willing to give a simple “thank you”
to our soldiers, who risk their lives and limbs to protect our land.Over the past ten years, there have been many disgraceful incidents
where Jewish soldiers were physically attacked by Chareidim.
Some of these attacks were reported by Yeshivah World News._________________________________________________
Rabbi Yisroel Meir Lau (Chief Ashkenazic Rabbi
of Israel from 1993 CE to 2003 CE) said this:“Over the years I have had the very special opportunity
to pray near some of the greatest rabbis
on the holiest night of the year, Yom Kippur.I have prayed near Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and Rabbi Leizer Shach.
I saw and heard them cry, shedding copious tears
as they recited the Ashamnu and Al Cheit prayers.And I saw them cry when they heard that our soldiers had been killed.”
SOURCE: At the Maggid’s Seder (page 92,
commentary on “this is the bread of affliction”)
by Rabbi Paysach J. Krohn, year 2020 CE,
ArtScroll Mesorah Publications,
ISBN-10: 1422625753 ISBN-13: 978-1422625750
_________________________________________________
PERSONAL COMMENT:Most of those soldiers who died were NEVER religious and NEVER Shomer Shabbat.
Yet Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and Rabbi Leizer Shach
CRIED when they heard that “OUR soldiers” had been killed.Notice that Rabbi Paysach J. Krohn refers to them as “OUR soldiers”,
even though they were never religious, and even though they were never Shomer Shabbat,
and even though they took orders from Secular/Chiloni commanders and a Secular Jewish State.Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and Rabbi Leizer Shach CRIED
when they heard that “OUR soldiers” had been killed.Why do the Chareidi anti-Zionists not cry when they
hear that “OUR soldiers” have been killed?_________________________________________________
Rabbi Rabbi Paysach J. Krohn said this:A number of years ago, my late brother Rav Kolman Krohn zt”l got into a taxi in Yerushalayim.
The bare-headed driver had an earring in one ear, and he seemed angry and bitter.
There was a stony silence in the taxi as the driver wound around small side streets at breakneck speed.
Finally my brother broke thev silence and said in Hebrew, “Anu Achim” (We are brothers).”
the incensed driver responded angrily, “Anu Lo Achim” (We are not brothers)!
Atah Dati Va’Ani Lo Dati (You are religious and I am not religious)!”My brother said softly, “My rebbi taught me that those who
are dati (religious) and those who are not dati are brothers.”The driver turned to my brother and asked with disdain, “Who was your rebbi?”
My brother replied delicately, “Adolph Hitler.”
SOURCE: At the Maggid’s Seder (commentary on
“on all other nights we do not dip even once”, page 100)
by Rabbi Paysach J. Krohn, year 2020, ArtScroll Mesorah Publications,
ISBN-10: 1422625753 ISBN-13: 978-1422625750A lot of Charedim are in hatzalah and zakah and volunteer to do neighborhood security. Why don’t the gov count those as national service? It’s political. The secular know deep down they’re losing population.
SPOILER ALERT: Torah leaned ‘l’shma’ doesn’t protect reshoyim like apikorsim, tinukei shenishbu, or other mechalile shabbos b’farhesya. It certainly doesn’t strengthen or protect the political zionist state and their rejection of Divine gezeiras hagulis.
So, to correct so much your zionist heresy that your bad chinuch (or bad choices) has brought you, let me take it piece by piece:
@simcha613 you said:the obvious problems that the Charedim want exemptions for everyone and not just those learning
this is not a problem. this is a feature of being Jewish: we want to rescue ALL Jews from slavery to zionists. is this not obvious?
@simcha613 you said:or that learning doesn’t seem to replace hishtadlus in other areas like parnassah, shalom bayis, voting, and protesting.
you are confusing “histadlis” and other things. “shalom bayis” is not histadlis, it’s a mitzvah on its own. protesting is not hishtadlis, its an outgrowth of the obligation to be publicly mocheh. for parnsasa and health, we Jews have as part of the Torah clear guidence that we are at times obligated to participate in those things in the natural way as an expression of our eminah and bituchon. If the Torah hadn’t told us explicitly, for example, to go to a doctor, it would have been absolutly fobidden as a abhorent breach in our designation as a holy nation.
None of this has to do with the seperate obligation to learn Torah.
@simcha613 you said:Let’s take it as a given that learning Torah adds to our protection and is a component of our military defense.
This is zionist nonsense. Hashem protects the nation of Klal Yisroel from destruction in gulis(not the nation called Lebanon or Britain or Midinat-Yisrael). All mitzvos, especially learning Torah, give merit to Jewish individuals, families, and groups that participate in those mitzvos. This merit is primarily reward in the next world, but may have secondary positive effects in this physical world, sometimes leading to good to Jewish host cities and countries. All of this is the Jewish principle of Schar-v-Onesh, something that Zionism rejects and replaces with heretical “military hishtadlooot(sic)”
@simcha613 you said:Personally, I believe this. It’s part of our Mesorah.
Yes your “mesora” straight form Herzl to the Pope to @simcha613. In contrast to your very strange and evil religion, I will continue to answer here as per -l’havdil- classic Torah teachings.
@simcha613 you said:The big problem is that it’s a very vague statements and WE DO NOT KNOW HOW IT WORKS. And this vague concept is being used as a reason for not drafting more Charedim, increasing the defense burden on others. I’ve seen posters post here that Charedim need to do a better job explaining that this is why Charedim don’t draft. But what’s to explain? There is no in depth analyses of how it works or what we need like there is in every other area of halacha!
…this is onlly confusing to you because you are confusing politics – which is by nature dishonest and manipulative – with Torah which is well documented and clear in 99.9% of situations. All the propoganda you are spouting started in and is only sourced in zionist political sources – like mk’s and the like. You will not find any Torah sources that explain how to undrstand zionism and zionist militarism within Torah because zionism is a different religion.
Additionally, everyone has the absolute right to be exempt due to the fact that the IDF is openly and proudly a “melting pot” explicitly designed to turn every enlistee into a pure (read: secular) Israeli. This has been the express case since 1948 through today.
Furthermore, the IDF is internationally infamous for their notorious well documented and sometimes even openly admitted debauchery, fornication, unchastity, and licentiousness between the two genders enlisted and serving together; especially between male superiors and female subordinates.
Our history unfortunately demonstrates that learning doesn’t offer protection. Crusader massacres, blood libels, pogroms etc.
Yeshivaman, yes it’s an irreligious state, but you don’t get to decide which laws to follow. If you live in the U.S., could you legally avoid a draft notice? I don’t think sosimcha613:
I think your perspective on this is somewhat backwards, which is the likely cause of your frustration.
The chareidim not only want, but do indeed deserve, exemptions from the Zionist shmad army for all Torah Jews, not just those learning. This isn’t an “obvious problem” at all, especially if you understand the metzius.But first, your baseline assumptions are way off.
1. The Zionists were the ones who invaded against the will of the Torah Jews and therefore created their need for an army. That’s on the Zionists, not on the Torah Jews who not only didn’t ask for the Zionists to come invade, but actually begged the Zionists to stop invading and destroying the peace they had there and to leave. The wicked Zionists didn’t and don’t care.
2. There are halachos that determine where a Jew may or may not go. A Jew needs to be among Torah Jews, not among heretics. Zionism and its army exists for one reason only: shmad. The express purpose of Zionism is to convert Judaism and Jews from Torah-based Judaism to idolatrous land-based secular nationalism instead. In case you missed any of that, that means the Zionists want to replace Judaism and Jews with Zionism and Zionists. The Zionist shmad army is the main tool of the Zionists to effect that change. Obviously, then, a Jew cannot possibly be required to enter an institution which will damage his Judaism, all the more so not one like the Zionist shmad army whose express purpose is to shmad them, to convert them from Judaism to Zionism.
Further background:
The wicked invading Zionists, back then, made a deal with Agudah that Torah learners will be exempt from the Zionist shmad army in return for Agudah not exposing to the UN the Zionist Big Lie that the Zionists really represent only Zionists and not Jews. Based on the above, we can understand why Agudah lay leaders made that deal. They incorrectly took as a foregone conclusion the then-impending establishment of the “State”, not understanding, as the Brisker Rav noted, that decisions by a kesher reshaim are not relevant in Heaven. However, based on that mistaken assumption, they figured that they have no choice but to accept that impending establishment as reality, and then negotiate with the Zionists. So, they figured, as long as the Torah Jews are exempted from the shmad army, then they can continue to remain Torah Jews, so they made that deal with the Zionists that they wouldn’t expose to the UN the Zionist Big Lie for what it is, namely that the Zionists do not represent Jews but rather only Zionists, in exchange for the Zionists not shmading the Torah Jews in their army.3. Therefore, it is only because the wicked Zionists force the Torah Jews to either learn or else be shmaded in the Zionist army, that the Torah Jews all have to learn until 26 years old until the Zionists finally exempt them and let them start working, which means the Torah Jews are impoverished by the Zionists in the process. But the real problem is the wicked Zionists, who don’t let them live as Jews so they could be free to work like Jews do in actual countries all over the world.
4. On a less important note, you are assuming that the wicked Zionists need more soldiers, even according to their calculations. The wicked Zionists have been lying since they came into existence a century ago, so I’m not sure why you are so quick to believe them that they need more soldiers. In fact, if the wicked Zionists would go to the nations and ask Esav to take over, however exactly that needs to be worked out, as the Satmar Rav noted decades ago, then they wouldn’t need any soldiers. I know that even considering this possibility blows the minds of Zionist idolaters because it is heresy to Zionists, so you have to just use your imagination a little and think outside the idolatrous box of Zionism on this one.
Regardless, bottom line, the wicked Zionists are the ones who opened this “pandora’s box” against the will of the Torah Jews living there, and the Zionists are the ones who can clean up their own cataclysmic mess that they the Zionists made against the will of the Torah Jews living there.
yeshivaman > every single one told me it was a significant yerida.
Look, gemora says that Mordechai reduced his rank in Sanhedrin after he got involved into politics. Did he make a mistake hanging around the palace instead of sitting in the yeshiva?!
All this talk about army not providing perfect environment might pass during (relatively) peaceful time, but when the war goes for months and months, I can see how Israelis are not relating to this argument, especially when you start nitpicking that army really does not use all soldiers, and there are other people avoiding. Maybe, you simply sincerely do not understand what others are thinking of you because everyone around you brings these arguments.
I suggest having a listening tour – go to a non-charedi commuity and ask them what they think about this issue – not confront them or argue, but simply listen to how they think and feel. Then, come back here and report.yeshivaman > they don’t realize the value of the spiritual contribution the charedim are making.
you can’t force your spiritual contribution on others. You can join Yassachar/Zevulun partnership – with a willing partner. Maybe, you can think how to make non-charedim appreciate your contribution – either by teaching them, or extending chesed, or behaving in life so that parents look at you and tell their kids – you should be as nice as this yeshivaman.
It is actually a klal – people tend to worry about spiritual well-being of others and their own material well-being more. Halakha is actually opposite – you should do the opposite.
ujm – This is the second time I completely agree with a post of yours.
Yeshivaman 613
“The way wars are fought today, an army doesn’t have so much to do with numbers of physical troops and man power.”
Tell that to the literal Magidei Shiur and 40-something year old Avreichim in Hesder yeshivas doing their third or fourth tour of reserve duty in Gaza, Shmirah in yehuda/shomron, or Lebanon or the border of Syria. Not to mention the regular requirements of the army. People always say this and never actually have a source besides supposed anecdotal evidence. And maybe your friends weren’t allowed to enter Gaza because that just isn’t how the army works. You don’t get to say “send us here”. It’s not like saying you want to go to a certain shiur lol.What bothers me about the learning for protection argument is that there’s no feeling of responsibility whatsoever. Obviously learning has a schar that protects, but the yeshivas only take credit when something good happens. If we really believed that learning protected then A. There would be achrayus on the learners when things went wrong as well. That is why R’Chaim Shmuelevitz would come into the beis medrish when a soldier was killed, give a klop on the bima and say “we cannot say “yadeinu lo shafchu es hadam hazeh!” Everyone spending significant time learning (myself included) should have fasted when missiles hit residential buildings, because obviously there was a chisaron in our learning.
And B. There obviously would not be a bein hazemanim right now. If we really believed that the spiritual front is equally essential in a straightforward manner, then like the soldiers, the bochurim would not be taking a break. The fact that there has not been any major call to cancel bein hazemanim for most breaks in the last two years indicates that we don’t really act on that belief.Ari Knobler – The Gemara you quote is referring to the learner himself. The Maharsha over there is referring to Doeg and Achitofel, and why their Torah learning didn’t protect them from dying prematurely (as punishment for their רשעות). Your attitude is called מאי אהני לן רבנן (as in היכי דמי אפיקורוס…), discussed in Sanhedrin 99b and the mefarshim there. If you are smart enough to read the Maharsha and quote half of it, you can easily find the relevant sources if you want to… At any rate, neither you or me can decide these matters למעשה, only גדולי הדור. If you don’t like it, then do what you want. כלל ישראל will keep on going…
You are accusing Chareidim of “cowardice” and “ideological convenience”? So, let all the Chiloni cowards join Yeshivos, if it is in fact so easy and convenient… Get real. Chareidim ‘give up’ many things secular Israelis (and MO) hold dear, for the sake of their ideology. If you think that the existence of כלל ישראל altogether, and our survival through the generations, is not the direct result of Divine Providence, which is dependent upon the ברית ושבועה at הר סיני when we got the Torah and promised to learn it and keep it, then ח״ו you have less אמונה than millions of believing Goyim… I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt, so I don’t think you really were מתיישב what you even wrote, because it’s so off kilter Jewishly speaking.
As it is, the real issue with the army is גילוי עריות, as has been discussed here many times, and hinted to in ‘yeshivaman613’s post here. We believe that אלקיהם של אלה שונא זימה הוא, and והיה מחניך קדוש (as in the ARMY מחנה…), do you?
Moshiach’s army?! LOL!!!!!! הלוואי the Roshei Yeshiva and some of the Maggidei Shiur might make the grade… Maybe… You’re comparing that to a Chiloni co-ed cesspool?! Not even a joke. In Moshiach’s army (if he will even need one) they won’t have abortion clinics… There will be some other differences too…
By the way, which IDF unit did you serve in?
Simcha613 – Everything in Torah is ‘vague’ without the guidance of חכמי התורה גדולי הדור. Especially inyanim of Emunah and Hashkafah. That ‘vagueness’ is where דעת בעלי בתים comes from… There are many other problems with the IDF, that the Israeli government has no interest (or even legal ability for now) to adress. The גדולי הדור will decide what to do למעשה. Any further discussion is in fact ‘beating to death’ and a waste of time.
Are Roster – Preventing גילוי עריות does in fact come before saving Jewish lives. I know already the tropes you will answer with, and I don’t have time to repeat the answers on every new thread. Ask your local תלמיד חכם to explain the sugya. Suffice it to say that ALL the גדולי תורה here in Israel are united on this issue.
I’m starting to question whether posting here is worth it altogether, seeing the same דעת בעלי בתים tropes paraded day in and day out, often by people who live in חוץ לארץ and are far removed from the reality on the ground (and from serving in the IDF themselves…)
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