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Obviously this topic has been beaten to death, but I would like to share my frustrations with this argument being used to defer army service
Let’s ignore the obvious problems that the Charedim want exemptions for everyone and not just those learning… or that learning doesn’t seem to replace hishtadlus in other areas like parnassah, shalom bayis, voting, and protesting.
Let’s take it as a given that learning Torah adds to our protection and is a component of our military defense. Personally, I believe this. It’s part of our Mesorah. The big problem is that it’s a very vague statements and WE DO NOT KNOW HOW IT WORKS. And this vague concept is being used as a reason for not drafting more Charedim, increasing the defense burden on others. I’ve seen posters post here that Charedim need to do a better job explaining that this is why Charedim don’t draft. But what’s to explain? There is no in depth analyses of how it works or what we need like there is in every other area of halacha!
For example… what’s the ratio of learners to soldiers? If there is a need for soldiers (either because the army itself is understaffed or the soldiers themselves are overburdend and suffering), how do we determine how many learners should transfer from the spiritual side of the protection to the physical side of protection? Is it just a blanket fact, anyone who can learn should be doing that instead of fighting or is there a calculation- we need x amount of learners to provide reasonable protection and the rest should go support the physical side of the army? Does it davka need to be army aged youth who are learning instead of fighting? What about adults who have jobs and businesses… maybe they should shut down their parnassahs to provide the spiritual learning side of our defense (like our miluim soldiers are doing) and let the younger army aged soldiers focus on the physical side? How do we know the protection of learning are those learning instead of fighting… maybe the protection comes from those learners who are fighting.. that there zechus HaTorah carries with them to the front lines?
The problem with the learning argument and using it as a defense of avoiding fighting, as much as it is true that learning protects and is necessary…. there is no critical, detailed, analysis of how it works and what we need… and when it’s much clearer to define what our army and soldeirs need, using the more amorphous vague undetailed Torah argument seems to be missing something. Why is the most stringent definition of this concept being used to avoid army service when the need for soldiers is so tangible and measurable?
No serious posek would say that anyone enrolled in Yeshiva is absolved from the mitzvah of saving Jewish lives. It is made up from whole cloth.
“Let’s take it as a given that learning Torah adds to our protection and is a component of our military defense. Personally, I believe this. It’s part of our Mesorah. The big problem is that it’s a very vague statements and WE DO NOT KNOW HOW IT WORKS.”
So what? We don’t need to know “how” it works; we know it works. That’s enough.
“what’s the ratio of learners to soldiers?”
Currently there are far far too few learners. We need to increase, greatly, the number of learners.
“there is no critical, detailed, analysis of how it works and what we need”
The Gedolei Yisroel shlita have already long made this analysis. There’s no one more qualified than Gedolei Yisroel shlita to make this analysis. The Gedolei Yisroel shlita are easily reachable. They do not live in Ivory Towers. They do not have security details. The Shin Bet does not keep people away from them. You can easily approach them and respectfully ask them. They will answer you. No need for coffee room threads.
The Maharsha makes an unambiguous statement on Sotah 21a that undermines the oft-misused slogan “Torah protects”:
“וי”ל דלא קאמר תורה מגנא אלא מפורעניות ויסורין ולא ממיתה וק”ל.” “One can say that the phrase ‘Torah protects’ was never meant to imply protection from death, but only from affliction and suffering. And this to us is incontrovertible truth.”
This clear qualification decisively undercuts the myth perpetuated by certain draft-dodging shirkers who falsely claim that full-time Torah learning offers physical protection to the State of Israel and renders military service unnecessary. These same individuals routinely revile the State and treat her actual soldiers—who bear real risk and real burden—with open contempt, as if their lives are disposable while the so-called learners’ lives are sacrosanct.
But the Maharsha’s comment pulls the rug out from under this hypocrisy. Torah does not protect from death. Period. To claim otherwise is to knowingly distort a ma’amar Chazal for ideological convenience.
And let us be frank: if the Mashiach himself were to establish a fully halakhic Jewish army and demand their service, these same individuals would likely resort to the very same excuse—“Torah protects”—to evade the call. Their issue is not with the nature of the army, but with any form of responsibility that places their own comfort and safety at risk.
Their cry of “Torah protects” is not a theological statement. It is a shield of convenience—used to hide from duty, to delegitimize those who defend them, and to cloak cowardice in sanctity.
I don’t speak for clal yisroel, but my understanding is that the MAIN problem is joining an army run by an irreligious state, since it is basically impossible to make a framework for young teenage boys still in the process of finding themselves spiritually to be able to stay strong religiously, let alone stay charedi and want to continue to be a ben torah. I understand the army has made all kinds of promises that they will come in charedi and go out charedi, but let’s be honest, who runs the army and will ultimately be in charge of whether these promises are kept and to what extent? Not Chareidim, that’s for sure.
I know personally many religious solders from the dati leumi community who were in religious units of some sort, both israeli and american. I asked every single one I now if they had a spiritual aliyah or yerida in the army, and every single one told me it was a significant yerida. So it is spiritual pikuach nefesh to join such an army. Does the physical pikuach nefesh overide the spiritual pikuach nefesh? I am not sure. And I am also not sure there currently is any physical pikuach nefesh if the chareidim don’t join. The way wars are fought today, an army doesn’t have so much to do with numbers of physical troops and man power. Are you aware of how small of a percentage of israeli soilders actually entered gaza or lebanon? I have friends who were in top units that are on reserve duty that BEGGED the army to let them go into gaza, and were crushed when they were told they weren’t needed. The issue that the secular israelis seem to be bothered by is that there is a lack of “sharing the burden”, but that’s only because they don’t realize the value of the spiritual contribution the charedim are making. That’s where the conversation of learning protects comes in.
If spirituality is the problem with joining the army the cheredim could’ve fixed it by now. i believe problem is participating under the command of a secular ideological government. The people running the country arnt willing to give in on that so the charedim dont even try and make up excuses instead. basically as the government trying to draft chareidim is just political tool to control them and the cheredi rabbanim refusing to go along with it is their political control over the government.
Most Chareidim are not even willing to recite a tefillah for our soldiers,
not even a short tefillah, and they are OUR soldiers, who fight for us.Most Chareidim are not even willing to recite a short tefillah
for the soldiers who are Shomer Shabbat and wear tefillin.Most Chareidim are not even willing to give a simple “thank you”
to our soldiers, who risk their lives and limbs to protect our land.Over the past ten years, there have been many disgraceful incidents
where Jewish soldiers were physically attacked by Chareidim.
Some of these attacks were reported by Yeshivah World News._________________________________________________
Rabbi Yisroel Meir Lau (Chief Ashkenazic Rabbi
of Israel from 1993 CE to 2003 CE) said this:“Over the years I have had the very special opportunity
to pray near some of the greatest rabbis
on the holiest night of the year, Yom Kippur.I have prayed near Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and Rabbi Leizer Shach.
I saw and heard them cry, shedding copious tears
as they recited the Ashamnu and Al Cheit prayers.And I saw them cry when they heard that our soldiers had been killed.”
SOURCE: At the Maggid’s Seder (page 92,
commentary on “this is the bread of affliction”)
by Rabbi Paysach J. Krohn, year 2020 CE,
ArtScroll Mesorah Publications,
ISBN-10: 1422625753 ISBN-13: 978-1422625750
_________________________________________________
PERSONAL COMMENT:Most of those soldiers who died were NEVER religious and NEVER Shomer Shabbat.
Yet Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and Rabbi Leizer Shach
CRIED when they heard that “OUR soldiers” had been killed.Notice that Rabbi Paysach J. Krohn refers to them as “OUR soldiers”,
even though they were never religious, and even though they were never Shomer Shabbat,
and even though they took orders from Secular/Chiloni commanders and a Secular Jewish State.Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and Rabbi Leizer Shach CRIED
when they heard that “OUR soldiers” had been killed.Why do the Chareidi anti-Zionists not cry when they
hear that “OUR soldiers” have been killed?_________________________________________________
Rabbi Rabbi Paysach J. Krohn said this:A number of years ago, my late brother Rav Kolman Krohn zt”l got into a taxi in Yerushalayim.
The bare-headed driver had an earring in one ear, and he seemed angry and bitter.
There was a stony silence in the taxi as the driver wound around small side streets at breakneck speed.
Finally my brother broke thev silence and said in Hebrew, “Anu Achim” (We are brothers).”
the incensed driver responded angrily, “Anu Lo Achim” (We are not brothers)!
Atah Dati Va’Ani Lo Dati (You are religious and I am not religious)!”My brother said softly, “My rebbi taught me that those who
are dati (religious) and those who are not dati are brothers.”The driver turned to my brother and asked with disdain, “Who was your rebbi?”
My brother replied delicately, “Adolph Hitler.”
SOURCE: At the Maggid’s Seder (commentary on
“on all other nights we do not dip even once”, page 100)
by Rabbi Paysach J. Krohn, year 2020, ArtScroll Mesorah Publications,
ISBN-10: 1422625753 ISBN-13: 978-1422625750A lot of Charedim are in hatzalah and zakah and volunteer to do neighborhood security. Why don’t the gov count those as national service? It’s political. The secular know deep down they’re losing population.
SPOILER ALERT: Torah leaned ‘l’shma’ doesn’t protect reshoyim like apikorsim, tinukei shenishbu, or other mechalile shabbos b’farhesya. It certainly doesn’t strengthen or protect the political zionist state and their rejection of Divine gezeiras hagulis.
So, to correct so much your zionist heresy that your bad chinuch (or bad choices) has brought you, let me take it piece by piece:
@simcha613 you said:the obvious problems that the Charedim want exemptions for everyone and not just those learning
this is not a problem. this is a feature of being Jewish: we want to rescue ALL Jews from slavery to zionists. is this not obvious?
@simcha613 you said:or that learning doesn’t seem to replace hishtadlus in other areas like parnassah, shalom bayis, voting, and protesting.
you are confusing “histadlis” and other things. “shalom bayis” is not histadlis, it’s a mitzvah on its own. protesting is not hishtadlis, its an outgrowth of the obligation to be publicly mocheh. for parnsasa and health, we Jews have as part of the Torah clear guidence that we are at times obligated to participate in those things in the natural way as an expression of our eminah and bituchon. If the Torah hadn’t told us explicitly, for example, to go to a doctor, it would have been absolutly fobidden as a abhorent breach in our designation as a holy nation.
None of this has to do with the seperate obligation to learn Torah.
@simcha613 you said:Let’s take it as a given that learning Torah adds to our protection and is a component of our military defense.
This is zionist nonsense. Hashem protects the nation of Klal Yisroel from destruction in gulis(not the nation called Lebanon or Britain or Midinat-Yisrael). All mitzvos, especially learning Torah, give merit to Jewish individuals, families, and groups that participate in those mitzvos. This merit is primarily reward in the next world, but may have secondary positive effects in this physical world, sometimes leading to good to Jewish host cities and countries. All of this is the Jewish principle of Schar-v-Onesh, something that Zionism rejects and replaces with heretical “military hishtadlooot(sic)”
@simcha613 you said:Personally, I believe this. It’s part of our Mesorah.
Yes your “mesora” straight form Herzl to the Pope to @simcha613. In contrast to your very strange and evil religion, I will continue to answer here as per -l’havdil- classic Torah teachings.
@simcha613 you said:The big problem is that it’s a very vague statements and WE DO NOT KNOW HOW IT WORKS. And this vague concept is being used as a reason for not drafting more Charedim, increasing the defense burden on others. I’ve seen posters post here that Charedim need to do a better job explaining that this is why Charedim don’t draft. But what’s to explain? There is no in depth analyses of how it works or what we need like there is in every other area of halacha!
…this is onlly confusing to you because you are confusing politics – which is by nature dishonest and manipulative – with Torah which is well documented and clear in 99.9% of situations. All the propoganda you are spouting started in and is only sourced in zionist political sources – like mk’s and the like. You will not find any Torah sources that explain how to undrstand zionism and zionist militarism within Torah because zionism is a different religion.
Additionally, everyone has the absolute right to be exempt due to the fact that the IDF is openly and proudly a “melting pot” explicitly designed to turn every enlistee into a pure (read: secular) Israeli. This has been the express case since 1948 through today.
Furthermore, the IDF is internationally infamous for their notorious well documented and sometimes even openly admitted debauchery, fornication, unchastity, and licentiousness between the two genders enlisted and serving together; especially between male superiors and female subordinates.
Our history unfortunately demonstrates that learning doesn’t offer protection. Crusader massacres, blood libels, pogroms etc.
Yeshivaman, yes it’s an irreligious state, but you don’t get to decide which laws to follow. If you live in the U.S., could you legally avoid a draft notice? I don’t think sosimcha613:
I think your perspective on this is somewhat backwards, which is the likely cause of your frustration.
The chareidim not only want, but do indeed deserve, exemptions from the Zionist shmad army for all Torah Jews, not just those learning. This isn’t an “obvious problem” at all, especially if you understand the metzius.But first, your baseline assumptions are way off.
1. The Zionists were the ones who invaded against the will of the Torah Jews and therefore created their need for an army. That’s on the Zionists, not on the Torah Jews who not only didn’t ask for the Zionists to come invade, but actually begged the Zionists to stop invading and destroying the peace they had there and to leave. The wicked Zionists didn’t and don’t care.
2. There are halachos that determine where a Jew may or may not go. A Jew needs to be among Torah Jews, not among heretics. Zionism and its army exists for one reason only: shmad. The express purpose of Zionism is to convert Judaism and Jews from Torah-based Judaism to idolatrous land-based secular nationalism instead. In case you missed any of that, that means the Zionists want to replace Judaism and Jews with Zionism and Zionists. The Zionist shmad army is the main tool of the Zionists to effect that change. Obviously, then, a Jew cannot possibly be required to enter an institution which will damage his Judaism, all the more so not one like the Zionist shmad army whose express purpose is to shmad them, to convert them from Judaism to Zionism.
Further background:
The wicked invading Zionists, back then, made a deal with Agudah that Torah learners will be exempt from the Zionist shmad army in return for Agudah not exposing to the UN the Zionist Big Lie that the Zionists really represent only Zionists and not Jews. Based on the above, we can understand why Agudah lay leaders made that deal. They incorrectly took as a foregone conclusion the then-impending establishment of the “State”, not understanding, as the Brisker Rav noted, that decisions by a kesher reshaim are not relevant in Heaven. However, based on that mistaken assumption, they figured that they have no choice but to accept that impending establishment as reality, and then negotiate with the Zionists. So, they figured, as long as the Torah Jews are exempted from the shmad army, then they can continue to remain Torah Jews, so they made that deal with the Zionists that they wouldn’t expose to the UN the Zionist Big Lie for what it is, namely that the Zionists do not represent Jews but rather only Zionists, in exchange for the Zionists not shmading the Torah Jews in their army.3. Therefore, it is only because the wicked Zionists force the Torah Jews to either learn or else be shmaded in the Zionist army, that the Torah Jews all have to learn until 26 years old until the Zionists finally exempt them and let them start working, which means the Torah Jews are impoverished by the Zionists in the process. But the real problem is the wicked Zionists, who don’t let them live as Jews so they could be free to work like Jews do in actual countries all over the world.
4. On a less important note, you are assuming that the wicked Zionists need more soldiers, even according to their calculations. The wicked Zionists have been lying since they came into existence a century ago, so I’m not sure why you are so quick to believe them that they need more soldiers. In fact, if the wicked Zionists would go to the nations and ask Esav to take over, however exactly that needs to be worked out, as the Satmar Rav noted decades ago, then they wouldn’t need any soldiers. I know that even considering this possibility blows the minds of Zionist idolaters because it is heresy to Zionists, so you have to just use your imagination a little and think outside the idolatrous box of Zionism on this one.
Regardless, bottom line, the wicked Zionists are the ones who opened this “pandora’s box” against the will of the Torah Jews living there, and the Zionists are the ones who can clean up their own cataclysmic mess that they the Zionists made against the will of the Torah Jews living there.
yeshivaman > every single one told me it was a significant yerida.
Look, gemora says that Mordechai reduced his rank in Sanhedrin after he got involved into politics. Did he make a mistake hanging around the palace instead of sitting in the yeshiva?!
All this talk about army not providing perfect environment might pass during (relatively) peaceful time, but when the war goes for months and months, I can see how Israelis are not relating to this argument, especially when you start nitpicking that army really does not use all soldiers, and there are other people avoiding. Maybe, you simply sincerely do not understand what others are thinking of you because everyone around you brings these arguments.
I suggest having a listening tour – go to a non-charedi commuity and ask them what they think about this issue – not confront them or argue, but simply listen to how they think and feel. Then, come back here and report.yeshivaman > they don’t realize the value of the spiritual contribution the charedim are making.
you can’t force your spiritual contribution on others. You can join Yassachar/Zevulun partnership – with a willing partner. Maybe, you can think how to make non-charedim appreciate your contribution – either by teaching them, or extending chesed, or behaving in life so that parents look at you and tell their kids – you should be as nice as this yeshivaman.
It is actually a klal – people tend to worry about spiritual well-being of others and their own material well-being more. Halakha is actually opposite – you should do the opposite.
ujm – This is the second time I completely agree with a post of yours.
Yeshivaman 613
“The way wars are fought today, an army doesn’t have so much to do with numbers of physical troops and man power.”
Tell that to the literal Magidei Shiur and 40-something year old Avreichim in Hesder yeshivas doing their third or fourth tour of reserve duty in Gaza, Shmirah in yehuda/shomron, or Lebanon or the border of Syria. Not to mention the regular requirements of the army. People always say this and never actually have a source besides supposed anecdotal evidence. And maybe your friends weren’t allowed to enter Gaza because that just isn’t how the army works. You don’t get to say “send us here”. It’s not like saying you want to go to a certain shiur lol.What bothers me about the learning for protection argument is that there’s no feeling of responsibility whatsoever. Obviously learning has a schar that protects, but the yeshivas only take credit when something good happens. If we really believed that learning protected then A. There would be achrayus on the learners when things went wrong as well. That is why R’Chaim Shmuelevitz would come into the beis medrish when a soldier was killed, give a klop on the bima and say “we cannot say “yadeinu lo shafchu es hadam hazeh!” Everyone spending significant time learning (myself included) should have fasted when missiles hit residential buildings, because obviously there was a chisaron in our learning.
And B. There obviously would not be a bein hazemanim right now. If we really believed that the spiritual front is equally essential in a straightforward manner, then like the soldiers, the bochurim would not be taking a break. The fact that there has not been any major call to cancel bein hazemanim for most breaks in the last two years indicates that we don’t really act on that belief.Ari Knobler – The Gemara you quote is referring to the learner himself. The Maharsha over there is referring to Doeg and Achitofel, and why their Torah learning didn’t protect them from dying prematurely (as punishment for their רשעות). Your attitude is called מאי אהני לן רבנן (as in היכי דמי אפיקורוס…), discussed in Sanhedrin 99b and the mefarshim there. If you are smart enough to read the Maharsha and quote half of it, you can easily find the relevant sources if you want to… At any rate, neither you or me can decide these matters למעשה, only גדולי הדור. If you don’t like it, then do what you want. כלל ישראל will keep on going…
You are accusing Chareidim of “cowardice” and “ideological convenience”? So, let all the Chiloni cowards join Yeshivos, if it is in fact so easy and convenient… Get real. Chareidim ‘give up’ many things secular Israelis (and MO) hold dear, for the sake of their ideology. If you think that the existence of כלל ישראל altogether, and our survival through the generations, is not the direct result of Divine Providence, which is dependent upon the ברית ושבועה at הר סיני when we got the Torah and promised to learn it and keep it, then ח״ו you have less אמונה than millions of believing Goyim… I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt, so I don’t think you really were מתיישב what you even wrote, because it’s so off kilter Jewishly speaking.
As it is, the real issue with the army is גילוי עריות, as has been discussed here many times, and hinted to in ‘yeshivaman613’s post here. We believe that אלקיהם של אלה שונא זימה הוא, and והיה מחניך קדוש (as in the ARMY מחנה…), do you?
Moshiach’s army?! LOL!!!!!! הלוואי the Roshei Yeshiva and some of the Maggidei Shiur might make the grade… Maybe… You’re comparing that to a Chiloni co-ed cesspool?! Not even a joke. In Moshiach’s army (if he will even need one) they won’t have abortion clinics… There will be some other differences too…
By the way, which IDF unit did you serve in?
Simcha613 – Everything in Torah is ‘vague’ without the guidance of חכמי התורה גדולי הדור. Especially inyanim of Emunah and Hashkafah. That ‘vagueness’ is where דעת בעלי בתים comes from… There are many other problems with the IDF, that the Israeli government has no interest (or even legal ability for now) to adress. The גדולי הדור will decide what to do למעשה. Any further discussion is in fact ‘beating to death’ and a waste of time.
Are Roster – Preventing גילוי עריות does in fact come before saving Jewish lives. I know already the tropes you will answer with, and I don’t have time to repeat the answers on every new thread. Ask your local תלמיד חכם to explain the sugya. Suffice it to say that ALL the גדולי תורה here in Israel are united on this issue.
I’m starting to question whether posting here is worth it altogether, seeing the same דעת בעלי בתים tropes paraded day in and day out, often by people who live in חוץ לארץ and are far removed from the reality on the ground (and from serving in the IDF themselves…)
Yeshiva Man 613 in his first paragraph is correct: The MAIN reason we are not sending our boys to the army is the [lack of] ruchniyos state in the army. I’m in Eretz Yisroel and that is what EVERYONE says is the main reason. No gadol would tell a chareidi boy who is not learning in Yeshiva to go to the army just because he’s not learning.
So why is the “learning protects” argument used so often?
Answer in my opinion: The reason the “learning protects” is used a lot is 1) For formulating a draft law It’s a more defined פטור than “Chareidi.” They could make a law about Yeshiva students, but not about “Chareidim” because how do you define who is a chareidi? 2) It is the answer to the opposition’s claim of “share the burden. They have to understand that in our eyes we are sharing the burden. 3) It negates the possibility of a law that requires every Yeshiva student to go to the army which would in fact be dangerous in terms of losing the zechus hatorah.
HaKatan – ” A Jew needs to be among Torah Jews, not among heretics.”
Don’t tell the Lubavitcher Rebbe or any Chabadniks. Or Aish. Or Ohr Somayach.
There is a massive wave of baal teshuvah the last 20-30 Y. You can argue about why spiritually but from a practical perspective it is because of Chabad and Aish and similar that religious Jews are not condemning their brothers and sisters because they do not yet keep Shabbos but rather ahavas chesed, ahavas chinam, that they love their brothers and sisters – they love the Eibishter’s children – and long to bring them to yiddishkeit.
I would caution everyone here to avoid lashon harah. There is certainly a smell of it in this thread. The first temple was destroyed because of the three cardinal sins and yet was rebuilt only 70 years later. The second temple was destroyed because of sinas chinam and two thousand years later it is still not rebuilt BECAUSE we continue with sinas chinam and lashon harah. It would seem that lashon harah is even WORSE than murder, inappropriate relations, and idolatry. For those actions we were without a temple for 70 years. Because of sinas chinam and lashon harah we have been without a temple for over two thousand years.
I ask everyone please be careful with your words and please do not slander H-shem’s children, whether they keep Shabbos or not, whether they are Zionist or not. It is said there is no apikorsus in this day and age because those who disbelieve were never exposed to yiddishkeit. Please 9 Av just passed and we continue to spit on the temple. Please let’s do no more lashon harah.
our personal opinion doesn’t matter we are doing what Gidolei Yisroel have and that is not to go to the army
and to the one who said charaidim don’t care is wrong – in my shul that is very chareidi we have been saying avinu malkeinu since the beginning of the war and 2 pirkei tehillim after all tifilos
the reason that many don’t say the tfilla lihaztlachat chayalei yisroel is because of the wording that many don’t agree with – so please do your research before being motzie shem ra@keith
while i respects, perhaps, your sincerity. I have to push back that what you are pushing is NOT ahavas chinam but sinas chinam.
There is NO place for loving apikorosim or minim or mechalilei shabbos b’farhesia in our Holy Torah.I mean that literally. There is no such thing in mainstream classic Torah seforim. Anything you might come across that talks about loving reshoyim, is clearly noted on page that this of course does not mean those who are beyond the pale – and that pale is always defined in line with the Rambam (for example) who spells it out in hilchos mamarim.
Even the Chofetz Chaim in that sefer he is named after is clear about the obligation to fully hate reshoyim. He also brings this in his sefer “ahavas chessed”.
Why is there no source otherwise? because it is a clear pasuk in tehillim and it would be kefira to reject is (as there are no sources in chazal that break away from the simple meaning, rather they expound on the obvious reading).
Loving reshoyim is the same mida as hating tzadikim. We are obligated to be mebazeh and mocheh publicly, and that is the Jewish way of fixing “sinas chinam”. By loving yidden BECAUSE they are yidden (partners in keeping Torah) and hating those who rebel against Hashem.
Just visiting > So why is the “learning protects” argument used so often?
For me, this sounds as a dishonest argument: talk about learning, but then refuse to send everyone. I understand that this is politics, but I am sadden that such a crooked argument is used in the name of Torah. It is in essence a self-defeating argument – if you are not honest when you claim that you represent Emes, you don’t get a positive response.
With this in mind, back to your question “why is it used so often”? I would not presume that those respectful figures who do this are doing something they see as halachically asur. So, my best guess is that they see that this issue is so important and that the opposition is an enemy, so we are allowed to deviate from Emes. If you have a better explanation, please share.
yuda > and 2 pirkei tehillim after all tifilos
I see something similar here in US: more modern places say tehilim and explicit tefila and charedim say tehilim. Sephardim are in between – when the rav is there, it is tehilim. When the rav is not there, it is sometimes tefilos that seemingly everybody answer.
I do understand problem people have with the RZ tefilos, but I also do not think that avoiding saying what you are davening for also makes sense. It is like they are marranos, hiding their Zionism from themselves.
At some point, I explained to my kids that charedim say “EY” to avoid saying “Israel” as a medinah – even like “I took a flight to EY”. They first accused me of loshon horo, but eventually agreed and sometimes excitedly say that a certain teacher said “Israel” (when other teachers were not there).
You need to work to reconcile your heart and your mouth.
yuda > our personal opinion doesn’t matter we are doing what Gidolei Yisroel have
Don’t hold yourself so low. Of course, your opinion matters. You were either born into or chose to listen to a certain Rabbi. Or maybe you or your parents chose a local Rabbi and he follows a certain godol. But it is your original choice. After yoi did that, it is reasonable to follow him.
A less legit approach is used by some people who explicitly “choose” a gadol based on a specific opinion. for example, some are fond quoting Satmar Rebbe or R Wasserman. I don’t think all who quote are either Satmar Chassidim or follow all mussar following of R Elchanan. So, they essentially select their opinion first and then use a godol as an excuse. This is total disrespect to the godol – you are not respecting him, you are just using them.
I would caution everyone – H-shem LOVES the worst sinner in klal yisroel more than we’ve ever loved anyone ever in our entire lives. and He longs for him to return. The responses here have been very disappointing. Is our job to love klal yisroel and bring those not yet mitzvos observant back to our loving Father, or is our job to hate those H-shem loves – His children?
It is my understanding that there is no such thing as real apikorsim nowadays because those who are not yet mitzvah observant were never educated in yiddishkeit. They are simply ignorant. We can hate them and condemn them but that is NOT what H-shem does and not what He wants. If He hated them he could simply eradicate them. He longs not for their destruction but for their return to His ways.
How can we hate H-shem’s children who were simply never exposed to the beauty of yiddishkeit? He loves them. How can we hate them? Do we know more than Him?
Obviously hating our brothers and sisters is completely antagonistic to the Lubavitcher rebbe and all the Lubavitch movement and frankly the Besht so it seems unlikely we have followers of the Baal Shem Tov here … but imagine after 120 sitting in front of the Heavenly Court so proud that you rejected everyone who does not keep Shabbos and kosher how proud you will be and how shocked you will be when you see tears streaming down H-shem’s face “Why didn’t you love my children?” “Why did you cast them away and teach them My service is bitter when you could have loved them and brought them back to Me?”
9 Av just passed. I don’t see that Klal Yisroel will build the Beit HaMikdash anytime soon if we castigate and berate our brothers and sisters when we could love them and show them how beautiful it is to be a Jew.
Somejewiknow – “There is NO place for loving apikorosim or minim or mechalilei shabbos b’farhesia in our Holy Torah.”
I would bet that at least 90% of world Jewry does not keep Shabbos. This is because they were never raised in proper yiddishkeit. So are we to throw away 90% of Jewry? They were never exposed to Torah Judaism. Not in any meaningful way.
Few people on any American college campus keep Shabbos or kosher. Few in any high school. Should we do away with outreach? All those holy yidden involved in kiruv should stop because it is forbidden to love our ignorant brothers and sisters? What about the holy yidden in Russia stolen from their villages and forced to work in the czar’s army?
Everything chassidism stands for is wrong? Kiruv is wrong? Is there not a pintele yid in every Jew longing to return to his holy Father?
Just Visiting > They have to understand that in our eyes we are sharing the burden.
I think in the current matzav, you also need to start understanding what others think. Your thinking is really extremely zionist – you would not dare make similar demands in a goyishe country, whether in US or i Czar’s Russia. You require that the country provides you with a mehadrin kitchen and a tzanua dress. Jewws were drafted into Czar’s army – did they refuse and said that they’ll rather die in the Siberian camps? No. It was a tragedy but those who could not get out, went to serve.
Keith:
Please consult with your local orthodox rabbi.Kiruv certainly has its place, but that was obviously not the reference here. The discussion here is about the Zionist army whose express purpose is to destroy the Judaism of its inductees (and to destroy Judaism overall and remake it as Zionism, in general).
Regarding G-d loving sinners, that is true, and He does always wait for them to return. But we are commanded to hate those who hate G-d. Heretics do not receive any of the benefits of being Jews. Of course, Jews who never learned about G-d and the Torah are not to be hated. But this is all very much besides the point.
Again, please consult with your LOR.
First of all the temple was destroyed because of “cruelty” that came about because of actual evil hatred. So whoever was at the hand of that hatred became vindicative and went to the emperor. Let’s not stretch the letter of the law to a harmless discussion.
Landon hara can unfortunatly be used as a form of censurship and control. Let people speak freely. They think this in their head anyways. And if they want to villify, you can easily come up with a comeback to put them in thie place
Let’s rephrase from controlling people. It really isn’t normal or healthy. And people will talk _anywsys_Second, we are a very very small minority on earth. That means that just cuz everyone doesn’t conform to our “way” means we are correct.
We have a burtifull way of life. But the fact that we are a minority means we have a lifestyle and perhaps not the truth.
Morality _is_ the truth.
And truth is the truth. And
If someone believes and fallows morality
He’s a child of G-d essentially.
Well most people don’t keep shabbas so maybe then they aren’t following things exactly
But don’t forget that your belief system isn’t the only way.Always_Ask_Questions > Share the Burden
Israel is a Jewish State. We can’t demand the law force the seculars to keep the Torah, but we can demand that the law accommodate those that wish to do so.
JV: Although the State of “Israel” claims to be a “Jewish State”, it is anything but. It is an atheistic state, just as much as the Soviet Union was; and it always was so.
Just Visiting > Israel is a Jewish State. We can’t demand the law force the seculars to keep the Torah, but we can demand that the law accommodate those that wish to do so.
I think I agree with you on this statement. And, B’H, there are a lot of Israelis who do. I don’t think Israel treats religious Jews worse than other benevolent countries where Jews live in our times. In US, many observant Jews work, some learn some of the time (in hours or years), some get government payments as if they are poor by necessity. In some countries, not US, government pays for Jewish schools.
If you are demanding more than that, I am not sure what is your basis? I can only think that you expect more from a Jewish state. I sympathize with that feeling – but it really means that you view Jewish state as a great institution that is supposed to fight for your desired environment. This is more Zionist than any Zionist I ever met.
By the way, when we talk about sharing the burden, what about the burden of raising the next generation of כלל ישראל, or even just maintaining a large enough Jewish majority in Israel? Why isn’t that very real burden, which is MORE necessary for survival than even the IDF, also something that needs to be shared? And if the Chilonim (and some, not all, MO/RZ) don’t want to share the burden, they should at least be more appreciative of those who do serve…
Listen I think it’s obvious that there is a Devine decree that those “learning” dont go to the army.
It’s clear that G-d is protecting thier _innocence_ not just their religion
War means murder and death.> JV: Although the State of “Israel” claims to be a “Jewish State”, it is anything but. It is an atheistic state, just as much as the Soviet Union was; and it always was so.
JV, this is what I was talking about. With attitude like that, reflecting many others, I am sure, you cannot both rejeect the state as treif, and demand services from them as tzaddikim. Need to be consistent.
YYA > burden of raising the next generation
I think this is a great – and true – argument. You just need to ensure that the rest of klal sees you as adding, and not subtracting. If communities see each other as brothers, the problems will be easily solved.
I am still waiting for someone to respond to my comment about “sharing the burden” of maintaining a Jewish majority is Israel (and the continuity of Klal Yisroel). Why doesn’t that burden need to be shared? Why does it fall so disproportionately on the Chareidim, and why don’t the other Israeli Jews at least have some הכרת הטוב, and shut up about the lighter burden – עגלה הריקה – that they bear?
AAQ – I think this is a great – and true – argument. You just need to ensure that the rest of klal sees you as adding, and not subtracting.
If there is no Jewish majority, there won’t be “the rest of klal” to have an opinion. There won’t be anything for the IDF to fight for. No other חשבונות will make any difference. The Progressive Post-Zionist elite doesn’t care, because they have a pipe dream of a Goyish state of all its citizens. (Anyone who still subscribes to that view post October 7, I have no issue with calling him ערב רב. And no, UJM, they AREN’T Zionists.) The other 90% of the non-Chareidi Jewish population for the most part do see us as brothers. If and when they don’t, it’s because of the ערב רב junta who incite them through the ‘MSM’, because we are the biggest obstacle to their vision of Israel’s Post-Zionist future.
YYA > The other 90% of the non-Chareidi Jewish population for the most part do see us as brothers. If and when they don’t, it’s because of the ערב רב junta who incite them
ok, we agree on criteria, question is to what degree this unity exists? I would say, if 60% of voting non-charedim supported you, then all political issues would be solved. As it is, the country seems to be divided on these issues. And don’t fully blame papers. Israel is small enough for people to see other people in person, not just on the screen. Charedi behaviors affect how they are seen. The more ways you can find to participate in the society/army, the faster you’ll get support.
YYA,
Something is truly wrong with you for not understanding the ire of a secular society who’ve see millions of people bankrolled by the government to study and reproduce for decades, while they work hard, fight, bleed and even die in their place.
Feel free to disagree with their opinion but in their view it’s most certainly the opposite of “the lighter burden”.
AAQ said – The more ways you can find to participate in the society/army, the faster you’ll get support.
The more children you have, and raise to be Ehrliche Jews, the faster you’ll get a Chareidi majority. Then, let them come to us for support… The reason the Chilonim are so interested in ‘integrating’ Chareidim is because they fear just such a scenario… That’s why we don’t buy it.
GadolHadofi – Something is truly wrong with you for not understanding the ire of a secular society who’ve see millions of people bankrolled by the government to study and reproduce for decades, while they work hard, fight, bleed and even die in their place.
First of all, you speak as if the government fully “bankrolls” the Chareidim, and as if that is the reason they are able to survive. The amount of money paid to a Kollel Avreich from the Misrad HaDatot is a little more than 400 shekels a month… The VAT paid back to the government by a medium sized Chareidi family from one week of food purchases is more than that. Almost all Yeshivos and Kollelim collect money in Chutz LaAretz in hard currency, which is spent directly into the local Israeli economy to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars a year. I.e. the Yeshivos give back more than they get. Child subsidies have long since been slashed a generation ago, thanks to Lapid Sr., with no effect on the Chareidi birth rate. Government “support” for Torah is far from being make-or-break, and the גדולי תורה intentionally kept it that way, even though לזכותו יאמר Menachem Begin sincerely wanted to give more.
Second – If you think parents don’t work hard, fight, bleed, and even die, you have never raised a house full of.teenagers… Seriously, if it were so easy to be Chareidi, let the Chilonim come join us… The majority of soldiers in any army are not קרבי, i.e. “combat” soldiers. Google “tooth to tail ratio” to find out more. That is certainly the case in the IDF which automatically drafts boys (and girls!) who are far below par for combat, even if they wanted to volunteer. There are certainly many who fight, bleed, and even die ר״ל, but they are not near being a majority of the Army, let alone of the population. Even of those who do fight, most complete their three years and get on with life. Contrary to popular belief, most soldiers do not do much מילואים work, if at all. Again, it largely depends on what they were doing beforehand. It is true that a disproportionate burden falls upon a certain sector of the IDF, with a very high percentage of them being Religious Zionists, not ‘Tzfonbonim’, if you know what that term means. Yair Lapid, for example, spent his IDF time as a journalist for the IDF news service… Being a Chareidi, and raising the next generation of a Jewish majority, is a lifelong commitment, with many years of hard work, and expenses, which few Chilonim would be willing to trade their difficulties for (although many begrudgingly are jealous of the Yiddishe Nachas…) So, when push comes to shove, the Chilonim themselves do not consider the Chareidi burden to be lighter.
Third, and really first in importance – The vast majority of the “ire of a secular society” is coming out of the unholy axis of the Supreme Court, AG, and the Israeli MSM, who for the most part aren’t exactly veterans of Sayeret Matkal or the Shayetet, or even just Golani like my father-in-law… I live in Israel, in a mixed neighborhood, with not-religious and not-fully-religious neighbors with whom I have a good relationship, and experience much less hostility than I see on this “frum” website… Just follow the trail of who is pushing for Chareidi “integration” and you will easily see the pattern.
YYA,
The over four decades of Arachim success stories prove that secular Israeli society responds positively to a sensitive and loving approach. Not your vapid arguments of how Charedim provide more financial support to the state or how they “work hard, fight, bleed, and even die” from raising their children.
You’re obviously incapable of such an approach and the time you’re wasting attempting PR would be better spent learning.
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