March 28, 2011 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #595966
A lot of what we talk about in the CR is comparing different groups, like yeshivish, modern orthodox, etc.
I would like to know what you consider as criteria to categorize a person in one group or another.March 28, 2011 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #753759
yeshivish- goes to a yeshiva.
Modern Orthodox- ascribes to modern movements in orthodoxy, like chassidus or the mussar movement.March 28, 2011 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #753760
I would say it’s been about a month since we last treated this subject to exhaustion. So it’s time about time to do it again.March 28, 2011 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #753761truth be toldMember
I don’t consider such crieria, period! A jew is a jew. Some tzadikim are very cllose to Hashem…March 28, 2011 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #753762
MDG; Yeshivish is generally defined as wearing your hat (Bent up/Bent down.) at all times, including when it’s 100o weather and you’re driving the minivan in your shirtsleeves. Also, you speak “Yeshivish”. MO (Modern Orthodox) is too wide a range to define. And those definitions (& comparisons) that are defined, might offend some people.March 28, 2011 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #753763workingParticipant
This is a waste of time.
We are Jews to those who like us & we are Jews to those who hate us. They don’t differentiate between us; why should we.March 28, 2011 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #753764SJSinNYCMember
MO generally means ascribing to the concept of Torah U’Mada.March 28, 2011 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #753765
where is the thread?March 28, 2011 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #753766
It is very important on these type of threads to get your insanity in first.March 28, 2011 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #753767
I’m sure I can find more.March 28, 2011 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #753768gavra_at_workParticipant
yeshivish- goes to a yeshiva.
Modern Orthodox- ascribes to modern movements in orthodoxy, like chassidus or the mussar movement.
agree and approve.March 28, 2011 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #753769chayav inish livisumayParticipant
MDG if you switch the letters around your screenname stands for MILLER GENIUNE DRAFTMarch 28, 2011 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #753770Pashuteh YidMember
The more important question is what is Heimish. Only once that is resolved can the other issues like Brim up vs. Brim down be properly understood.March 28, 2011 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #753771mytakeMember
I hate labels.March 28, 2011 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #753772
I hate (sic) red label.March 28, 2011 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #753773
i also hate labels, and i wanted to have people articulate their ideas so that the we can discuss them and see where/how labels are (mis)applied and (mis)used.March 28, 2011 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #753774yid.periodMember
… some might even say a yid is a yid… period.March 28, 2011 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #753775mytakeMember
“how labels are (mis)applied and (mis)used.”
I’d add that they’re often deceptive and unfair.March 28, 2011 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #753776shlishiMember
there is no formal definition for yeshivish since there is yeshivish movement or group. it is a term imposed by others and sometimes assumed. but mo considers itself a movement, so whoever considers themselves part of that movement would fall in that term.March 28, 2011 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #753777
I think we need a better regulated labeling system.
It is like if apples from Washington had a different grading system than apples from North Carolina.
We should have a commission which decides on uniform labels, including a label for people who refuse to use our labels.March 28, 2011 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #753778
since there is yeshivish movement or group is or isnt??
fall in that term howdya do that?
POPA and what is a movement younger than 200 years ??
not modern or not Orthodox? I think you (un?)intentionally said something profound.March 28, 2011 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #753779
… some might even say a yid is a yid… period.
Reb Ahron said “a goy is a goy…is a goy” (‘…’mine)March 28, 2011 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #753780bptParticipant
Lately, I’ve been describing myself as “flexidish”.
Means everything and nothing, but it has a catchy ring to it!March 28, 2011 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #753782hudiParticipant
How bout you?March 28, 2011 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #753783
POPA and what is a movement younger than 200 years ??
the term Orthodox Judaism is not that oldMarch 28, 2011 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #753784tro11Member
I don’t like labels. But yeshivish means a fellow wears a black hat on Shabbatot and Yamim Tovim (and I believe some even wear them on weekdays).
MO incorporates the subtleties of modernism into the religion.March 28, 2011 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #753785
Are you asking me a question?
I am confused.
You want to know how I would classify movements in orthodoxy that are less than 200 years old? Like certain more recent chassidus’s?
I would call them Modern Orthodox. I never restricted my definition. If you want to call them Ultra-Modern-Orthodox, you can. But I don’t think anyone else calls them that.March 28, 2011 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #753786mewhoParticipant
i like labels
michael kors, tahari , prada etcMarch 28, 2011 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #753787cleverjewishpunMember
Anyone to the left of you = goy/M.O.
Anyone to the right of you = Taliban Judaisim
You = Exactly what Hashem wantsMarch 28, 2011 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #753788shlishiMember
sorry, i meant to write there is NO such thing as a yeshivish movement. it is a description imposed on others or assumed. MO on the other hand IS a self defined movement.March 29, 2011 1:13 am at 1:13 am #753789
I started this thread in seriousness, but the humor is much better.
BTW, I heard that the term Orthodox is a modern invention. Before Reform, you were just Jewish. After reform started, they needed a way to differentiate. They were called Reform and therefore the original group therefore needed a name, so they named us Orthodox”.March 29, 2011 2:19 am at 2:19 am #753790ItcheSrulikMember
To quote my rebbi, “Anyone to the right of me is a chnyock. Anyone to the left of me is a sheigetz.”
From now on the only such label I’m willing to use for myself (bli neder) is “levi.”March 29, 2011 2:24 am at 2:24 am #753791
PBA seems ???? ????? was not in your curriculum.
??? ??? ????? ?????
Surpise PBA confused
My point was the same as MDG’s
If you want to call them Ultra-Modern-Orthodox, you can. But I don’t think anyone else calls them that.
thanks for the permission. And who else today other than PBA calls Chasidim Modern as logical as it may sound.March 29, 2011 2:44 am at 2:44 am #753792ItcheSrulikMember
One more from my rebbi:
An early modern rabbi is one who lived between the renaissance and the beginning of the industrial revolution.
A modern rabbi is anyone who died between the beginning of the industrial revolution and the 1970s.
Anyone after that is a postmodern rabbi.March 29, 2011 4:22 am at 4:22 am #753794charliehallParticipant
“Modern Orthodox- ascribes to modern movements in orthodoxy, like chassidus or the mussar movement. “
I love it!March 29, 2011 5:06 am at 5:06 am #753795☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Rav Gifter ZT’L reportedly said “I’m not an Orthodox Jew, I’m a Torah Jew.”March 29, 2011 10:16 am at 10:16 am #753796apushatayidParticipant
“Member … some might even say a yid is a yid… period.”
And then there are the yechidei segula, us pushiter yidden 🙂March 29, 2011 10:23 am at 10:23 am #753797apushatayidParticipant
28 years ago, around the table one day by lunch several guys in the yeshiva were discussing the terms applied to groups of yidden. Back then, if you wore brown pants and a blue shirt (at the same time) you were “greasy”, if you wore a belt (gevald!) You wore a bit to the left. If you were color coordinated, gevald, you were already halfway towards kefira. Times sure have changed. Super greasy (the term yeshivish wasn’t in the vocabulary) guys didn’t take off their hat and jackets in the bathroom or, while playing basketball.
That was the psak of those bachurim in yeshiva of staten island, all those years ago. 🙂March 29, 2011 2:43 pm at 2:43 pm #753798WolfishMusingsParticipant
so they named us Orthodox
Which, of course, is very funny, because we are anything but Orthodox.
The WolfMarch 29, 2011 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #753799
CharlieHall; You agree with, and love the definiton of “Modern Orthodox” as either Chassidus or the Mussar movement. Let’s be honest. No one defines either of the above mentioned movements today as MO. Mussar is –today– defined as “Yeshivish. (Or, related to it.) And Chassidus. Well. We all know what a splendid reputation it has. Besides. You classify yourself as MO. Do you feel you’re related –spiritually– to either of them?! I davened once in a MO Shul. (No name or location) on a Yom Tov. Never mind. It might be L”H (Lamed Hay).March 29, 2011 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #753800☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
CharlieHall; You agree with, and love the definiton of “Modern Orthodox” as either Chassidus or the Mussar movement.
I did not take Charlie’s “I love it” as agreeing to MO being used commonly that way, but rather, as I did, appreciate the humor in using the literal sense of modern in a way opposite it’s use in the vernacular.March 29, 2011 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #753801me tooMember
I do not know about definitions but here is choice of synonyms
121 Moby Thesaurus words for “orthodox”:
*ristian, Orthodox Jew, accepted, accordant, accustomed, acknowledged, admitted, anal, approved, authentic, authoritative, authorized, being done, bourgeois, button-down, canonical, canonist, comme il faut, common, compulsive, concordant, conformable, conformist, conservative, conventional, correct, corresponding, customary, de rigueur, decent, decorous, die-hard, doctrinal, dour, established, evangelical, faithful, firm, fogyish, formal, formalistic, fundamentalist, hard, harmonious, hidebound, impliable, in accord, in keeping, in line, in step, inexorable, inflexible, iron, ironbound, ironclad, ironhanded, kosher, literal, meet, muscle-bound, obdurate, obstinate, of the faith, official, old-line, ordinary, orthodox *ristian, orthodoxical, orthodoxist, pedantic, plastic, popular, precisianistic, prevailing, prevalent, procrustean, proper, purist, puristic, puritan, puritanic, reactionary, received, recognized, regular, relentless, right, rigid, rigorist, rigoristic, rigorous, rockbound, sanctioned, scriptural, seemly, sound, square, standard, stiff, straight, straightlaced, straitlaced, stubborn, stuffy, textual, textualist, textuary, the orthodox, tory, traditional, traditionalist, traditionalistic, true, true believer, true-blue, unbending, uncompromising, unrelenting, unyielding, uptight
Source: Moby Thesaurus II by Grady Ward, 1.0
And here is the “authoritative” definition by Wikipedia
Definitions of modern orthodox judaism on the Web:March 29, 2011 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #753802WolfishMusingsParticipant
I davened once in a MO Shul. (No name or location) on a Yom Tov. Never mind. It might be L”H (Lamed Hay).
So, instead of slandering a particular shul, you decided to take a cheap pot-shot at the whole movement.
The WolfMarch 29, 2011 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #753803charliehallParticipant
“Do you feel you’re related –spiritually– to either of them?! “
Yes.March 30, 2011 12:58 am at 12:58 am #753804
Charliehall; Thank you for the clarification.
Wolfishmusings; I had no intention of slandering a (Any) particular Shul or a movement, CH”V. I love every Jew. (I only hope, they reciprocate.) Since I see some people’s imagination is running wild, I’ll fill you in on the story. Nothing sinister or of an offending nature transpired. I was made to feel welcome by everyone. But, it was between Mincha and Maariv of the First and Second day Yom Tov. The Shul has scheduled for some boys and Bar Mitzvah bochurim to speak. Since my nephew was one of the speakers, I was invited to attend. But when I heard 3 consecutive speakers relate stories of, and about Chassidim (In the singular.) I said to the person seated next to me (Jokingly, of course.) “A Chussid must be some kind of animal”.March 30, 2011 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #753805
Reb Yontl the Male Yenta; or, Reb Yontl Ben Yenta (to Poppa Bar Abba). If I’m not mistaken, the Mussar Movement, founded by R’ Yisroel Salanter is less than 200 Years old. (Approximately 160 Years.). The “Mussar” movement’s principles are built on Middos.(Bein Odom l’Chaveiro.) And self-discipline and deprivation. Chassidus (Which preceded the Mussar movement by about 60-70 Years), in its Generic form worked towards the same goals but with a different approach. Countering the elitist stance of the “Lomdish/Misnagdish” movement, which alienated the uneducated masses (Hamon Am.) who, in their simple ways felt that their form of Avodas Hashem was not appreciated, Chassidus put emphasis on Emuna and Love for Hashem and less importance on studying and knowledge of Shulchan Aruch. It was a revolutionary approach. But under the circumstances, it was the right thing to do. It lifted them up from despair and motivated them to continue with their Emuna.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.