Let's make YCT teshuvas, by popa

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  • #1218292
    dd
    Participant

    teaare said: “dd: Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

    Not that I believe that you are part of the Yeshiva World now.)”

    I certainly would rather be a yire shomayim and follow the Torah than be part of whatever group you (and popa and Sam etc) think that you are in. Your blatant disregard for the Torah (specifically hilchos lashon hara) and basic menschlichkeit make me glad to leave you and your ilk – regardless of whether the door hits me on the way out.

    The Mods should be ashamed of allowing this thread to continue.

    Not ashamed at all. Nothing has been said here which is not mainstream.

    #1218293
    MDG
    Participant

    I get the impression, from the stuff above, that to be part of the Yeshivish world you have to join a moshav leitzim and say motsai sheim ra.

    I wish people were only as careful as to what comes out of their mouth as what comes in their mouth.

    If you really believe that that YCT is so bad, pray for them to get better (which I did). See Brachot 10a, where Bruriah tells her husband, Rebbi Meir, to pray for the return of the Biryonim and not speak ill of them. This moshav leitzim is not helping anyone.

    #1218294
    MDG
    Participant

    PS – I love casting asperations on a “Talmid Chochom” who is “megaleh ponim b’torah”. I consider it a Kiddush Hashem.

    Am not referring to anyone in particular. Just saying.

    It’s bad enough that you speak L”H, but you try to cover it up with “Am not referring to anyone in particular. Just saying.” Your denial of your L”H makes it that much harder for you to do teshuva.

    #1218295
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Even if YCT is not your derech (or mine), the motzei shem ra is horrible. If you believe that they are not Orthodox, then it is still horrible middos for you to talk this way.

    Huh? It is bad middos to make fun of apikorsim who are mevazeh chazal, mevazeh talmidei chachomim, and are mesis u’mediach?

    If this is bad middos, let me never have good middos.

    #1218296
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    MDG: There are other gemaros as well, which say to make fun of them. And it is not mutually exclusive. You can make fun of them, and also daven for them to get better.

    #1218297
    Logician
    Participant

    It’s bad enough that you speak L”H, but you try to cover it up with “Am not referring to anyone in particular. Just saying.” Your denial of your L”H makes it that much harder for you to do teshuva.

    And now you can do tshuva for saying Lashon Horah ’bout me. But its ok, I really don’t care.

    I am only slightly familiar with this movement, and not at all with the person in question. I was commenting on the person’s status as a “Talmid Chochom” being irrelevant. But you can believe whatever you want.

    #1218298
    teaare
    Member

    Reminds me of the person who asked the Satmar Rebbe how he could be so vehement when talking about those he felt were rashaim (e.g., the Zionists who the Satmar Rebbe believed caused the holocaust) – didn’t Avraham daven for Sodom? The Satmar Rebbe answered, how do you know what Avraham said to them in public, or what I say in my tefillos?

    #1218299

    actually its good middos to make fun of apikorsim

    #1218300
    teaare
    Member

    Shaila: Is it permitted to speak lashon hora?

    Teshuva: Many sources do say that LH is prohibited, including some that compare LH to the three cardinal sins. However, in that context, a question must be asked – why is LH, unlike the three cardinal sins, permitted at risk of life?

    It would seem that the deep meaning of this rabbinic adage is that there will come a time when YCT rabbis will permit aspects of all three cardinal sins, such as abortions, worshiping modern idols such as liberalism and feminism, and promoting non-marital gender mingling. Having liberated themselves of these sins, LH will become permitted as well.

    [P.S. for serious answers see the Shaarei Teshuvah.]

    #1218301
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Teshuva: Many sources do say that LH is prohibited, including some that compare LH to the three cardinal sins. However, in that context, a question must be asked – why is LH, unlike the three cardinal sins, permitted at risk of life?

    It would seem that the deep meaning of this rabbinic adage is that there will come a time when YCT rabbis will permit aspects of all three cardinal sins, such as abortions, worshiping modern idols such as liberalism and feminism, and promoting non-marital gender mingling. Having liberated themselves of these sins, LH will become permitted as well.

    V’yesh omrim: Because there came a time when YCT/conservative “rabbis” are mattir aspects of the three cardinal sins, and then will say that we are still supposed to not say anything bad about them because of “lashon hara”.

    #1218302
    yytz
    Participant

    This thread is disgusting and should be shut down. If YCT is problematic hashkafically or halachically, write an op-ed or academic article about respectfully analyzing their actual statements and actions (and if you don’t have the capacity to do that, what business do you have judging them?). Throwing out random obviously illegitimate “teshuvas” that even a Conservative rabbi wouldn’t make — that’s just offensive, bigoted and wrong. Derech eretz, people.

    You want to write an op-ed for the site? Email it to the contact us. Meanwhile, what’s wrong with a few jokes about conservative “judaism”?

    #1218303
    Sam2
    Participant

    I think everyone here agrees that no one at YCT now would actually Pasken like this. It’s just a little fun at the expense of a group that is trying to change Judaism, even if it is a bit satirical. Would anyone be complaining if the title was “Conservative-style Teshuvas”? Just read it as that and there’s no real issue here.

    #1218304
    yytz
    Participant

    In response to the bold response (presumably by a mod) on my comment: It’s not conservative Judaism — YCT is LWMO, and it’s not your role to re-categorize them. And unless people have any substantive knowledge about what they’re supposedly doing wrong and why, they shouldn’t be bashing them.

    #1218305
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    1. Of course I have substantive knowledge. I know some of them personally, and have read lots of their rubbish on the internets.

    2. I don’t have all these categories: MO, LWMO, LBO, TRO, etc.

    I have two categories: Rabbinic Judaism, and Other. They are undoubtedly Other.

    3. This thread is not about discussing what is wrong with them. You are welcome to make a thread about that. This thread is a humorous and satirical thread making fun of them. If you want to know why it is a mitzva to make fun of them (which it is), you’ll have to open that other thread. I don’t pledge to post on it.

    #1218306
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Shaila: If one has a house full of sifrei torah, does it still need a mezuza?

    Teshuva: A sefer what?

    #1218307

    If conservatives redefine themselves as LWMO, people who practice Judaism have to suddenly respect them? Absolutely not.

    #1218308
    Sam2
    Participant

    Yytz: Rav Schachter called them Conservative. That’s good enough for me.

    #1218309
    rebdoniel
    Member

    I would be more than happy to write a defense of YCT positions from a halachic and academic perspective. I actually began authoring a sefer exploring feminism, academic Jewish studies, interfaith dialogue, pluralism, environmentalism, social justice, universalism, religious humanism, advanced secular studies, and other areas from a historical and textual basis (I believe that it is a friendly and tolerant approach towards non-religious Jews, a non-racist approach towards non-Jews, and intellectual openness which separates our brand of Orthodoxy from those on the right).

    #1218311
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    How about from a “hello, how do you do” perspective. I got no interest in academia. If you can’t defend it from a normal perspective, it probably isn’t worth defending.

    #1218312
    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: That’s a bit arrogant. Academics sometimes (though in my studies very rarely) have a good perspective on things. Just because it doesn’t interest you doesn’t mean that it can’t be the Emes.

    #1218313
    yytz
    Participant

    This article (R’ Benjamin Hecht on Yated and YCT) does a good job of explaining why people should not just blithely accuse YCT of heresy — it takes advanced study to determine if whether such accusations are valid.

    http://www.nishma.org/articles/commentary/yated.html

    #1218314
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Sam, I don’t think he means that. The point is that when you get very technical with quotes from historian’s assumptions of attitudes of bygone days (while ignoring attitudes expressed explicitly in Seforim) and generalizations based on a context that is a product of similar background, it will be very far from the normal attitude of a regular Yid, who have a better tendecy to pick up the true nuances of attitude from the Mesora.

    We don’t have a Mesora on details of Mitzvos. We base Halachos mostly on Sefarim. But, in Hashkafa and attitude the Mesora is strongest. It is still a Toras Chaim.

    #1218315
    Sam2
    Participant

    HaLeiVi: I would say Ad’raba. The differences between those with more of a Rambam leaning and those with more of a Zohar/Arizal leaning are astronomical.

    #1218316
    teaare
    Member

    rebdoniel: Sounds to me like you already made up your mind, now you just have to cherry-pick sources that defend them. I have a better idea: How about learning lishmah? (I am willing to concede that from an environmental or feminist perspective, that is dangerous.)

    #1218317
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    That’s ok. I earned my arrogance.

    Whenever someone starts with the environmental perspective, I start getting ready to be told that my opinion doesn’t count because I’m not as cultured as them.

    #1218318
    yytz
    Participant

    Popa: You say you’ve read a lot of their rubbish on the Internet. Would you mind giving us some examples of these things, which in your understanding prove they are outside of rabbinic Judaism? If the mods won’t let you post links, then you could give us the names of the articles or sites.

    #1218319
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    yytz: No, I won’t.

    Certainly not on this thread, since I don’t want to sidetrack it. This thread is for making fun, not for discussing the merits.

    Also, I’m not sure I want people reading that stuff.

    #1218320
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Just for all those on this thread that keep on saying: “we are only making fun [of YCT]” you should all know that one of the worst sins -‘chatoim chamurim’ is “laitzonus”- to make fun and to dismiss- (see pachad Yitzchok on Purim) and you are guilty of much worse that just (just?) loshon horah. You have espoused the middah of amalek. (see pachad Yitzchok on purim).

    I hold no brief for YCT as I know little of them but I do know that all of you who are abusing jewish people will answer for this in the other world.

    #1218322
    midwesterner
    Participant

    Shkoiach for being moser din al chaveiro. With friends like that . . . .

    Every single mainstream gadol who has discussed YCT has said that they are beyond the pale. They are de’ios kozvos. Leitzanusa d’avoda zara is muttar. Perversions of the Torah as the gedolim have said, surely qualify.

    Check out Chazon Ish Emunah ubitachon 3rd Perek where he talks about Midos Tovos, Lashon Hara, yored imo l’chayav, are all dependant upon Halacha.

    #1218323
    Logician
    Participant

    Rabbi – how did you miss the part of that ma’amer when he discusses how important it is to use the koach of litzanus in the right way?!

    #1218324
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Make fun and dismiss what?

    Sam, The attitude of following the Arizal and the Zohar Hakadosh didn’t start by the Arizal. The Rambam attitude didn’t start by the Rambam, either. However, the specific approaches did keep their shape, pretty much.

    Attitudes are part of Toras Imecha, they go over better Midor Lidor.

    #1218325
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    teeare: I love how your first teshuva to permit treif was based entirely on the concept of daas torah.

    #1218326
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    to logician, midwestern and others…last time I looked YCT and its adherents are shomer shabbos and keep every mitzvah. It is certanly not avodah zarah (midwesterner) and it is very arguably only different in a question that has preoccupied many Poskim (the women’s role in Judaism)and that is still evolving AND BASED on Jewish history. So, you may certainly disagree with their view on some things but what most of you wrote is – to me- way beyond acceptable talk.

    to sam2- I don’t know what Rav Shechter said but, if you allow YCT to be tarred and feathered , as you imply, you cannot argue agaisnt those who are so scathing about Zionism and Rav Kook zt’la shittah that is arguably much worse -in critic’s terms.

    “Chachomim, hizharu bedivreichiem”

    #1218327
    midwesterner
    Participant

    Hey Popa! What happened? Did the NY cops get you unfairly?!?

    Headline on YWN: “NYPD, PBA At Odds Over Ticket Issuing”

    #1218328
    Sam2
    Participant

    Rabbiofberlin: Avi Shwartz and Dov Linzer have both published things that basically cross the line into denying Mesorah. That’s very different than Zionism or anything like that. There the argument is on what the Mesorah is, not whether or not the concept exists.

    #1218329
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    berliner rov: What you say about YCT is true, but not complete. The issue (at least my issue and my rabbi’s issue) with YCT is that their psakim are not informed by any kind of standard halakhic process as historically practiced by poskim. To be fair, this issue is present in many other camps, but YCT is more egregious than most because they loudly proclaim “b’shita” that extra-halakhic considerations justify the way they “push the envelope” and that those considerations in fact trump normative halakha (while at the same time carefully staying within the bounds of muttar — barely).

    dd: My response to you didn’t go through before. I was probably a little to cynical. No, you don’t have to be a habitual motzi shem ra to be yeshivish. It’s just something that some yeshivish people do. Lot’s of other people do it too.

    #1218330
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    sam2- I only know YCT because it is the yeshiva founded and led by Rabbi Avi weiss. I don’t know the people you mention nor do I know their piskei halacha. If you tell me where I can find them, I’ll look them up. It is hard to believe that they deny “mesorah” Please show sources.

    itche srulik- you seem to agree with me- almost totally. i know little about their approach to halacha- will be pleased to look at the sources.

    All I said was that the way they are being mocked and “tarred and feathered” (english expression) is unacceptable to me. If you allow this approach to dominate, you allow the same thing to happen to Rav Kook’s shittah, to the shittah of Lubavitch and anything that veers-ever so slightly- from the yeshivish world. Again- “hizharu chcomim bedivreichim”

    #1218331
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    I agree with you on that point. “When they came for ploni I did not speak out…”. OTOH the coffeeroom is not the place for reasoned debate. It is the chazon ish shiur of moshav letzim and many shittos are mocked, though obviously not those of our gracious hosts. Enjoy the letzonus and if we ever meet in person I’ll tell you some equally good letzonus my (homburg-wearing) rebbi zt”l said about yeshivishism.

    #1218332
    Sam2
    Participant

    Rabbi: I meant Avi Weiss, not Schwartz. I am far too tired to be posting now. I’ll be back later after I take a nap (i.e. after Shabbos).

    #1218333
    shein
    Member

    The issue (at least my issue and my rabbi’s issue) with YCT is that their psakim are not informed by any kind of standard halakhic process as historically practiced by poskim. To be fair, this issue is present in many other camps, but YCT is more egregious than most because they loudly proclaim “b’shita” that extra-halakhic considerations justify the way they “push the envelope” and that those considerations in fact trump normative halakha (while at the same time carefully staying within the bounds of muttar — barely).

    That pretty much sums up modern orthodoxy in general, not just the “left-wing modern orthodoxy” of YCT.

    #1218334
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    homburg-wearing rebbi zt’l ? yeshivism? thank HKBH I have not succumbed to the pressure of the so-called leaders of the yeshivish world. I am not going to citifield !

    #1218335
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    You are all ruining my thread. This is about making fun of them, not about whether we should.

    If you don’t wish to make fun of them, then just don’t click on this thread. But don’t come here and ruin my fun.

    Thank you.

    (P.S. I find it astounding that in 2012 there are still posters here defending conservative judaism).

    #1218336
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    shein: No adequate response to you would get by moderation

    rabbiofberlin: I have not succumbed either, nor will I be going. The time would be put to much better use watching 3 stooges clips on youtube.

    #1218337
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    last time I looked YCT and its adherents are shomer shabbos and keep every mitzvah.

    lol. Good one! :-))

    #1218338
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    popa-bar-abba- do you have any indication that what i wrote is wrong? just because you call someone ‘conservative’ doesn’t make it so.

    #1218339
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Yes, I do. But as I said, we aren’t talking about that in this thread. You can start your own thread to talk about it.

    #1218340
    BSD
    Member

    rabbiofberlin-“Just for all those on this thread that keep on saying: “we are only making fun [of YCT]” you should all know that one of the worst sins -‘chatoim chamurim’ is “laitzonus”

    Rabbi Betsy from YCT came out with a heter.

    #1218341
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    i have absolutely no desire to start a thread on YCT or even conservative Jewry. Mu point is simple ; you are ‘moitzi shem ra’ on jews.Unless you can bring some proof (not just say- “I do”) then I would suggest you refrain from speaking loshon horah and being”motzi shme ra’. There is no “hetter’ to do this, regardless of the way you clothe it.

    #1218342
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I have proof. I don’t need to prove it to you. If you don’t think so, then you shouldn’t be reading this thread.

    So you see, between me and you, you are the avaryon.

    #1218343
    JaneDoe18
    Participant

    Speaking out against those who publicly advocate beliefs and practices which are against the Torah is neither Loshon Hora nor Motzee Shem Rah.

    Please see:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=5269

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