Let's make YCT teshuvas, by popa

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  • #2188341
    mentsch1
    Participant

    Neville
    I see what you did there
    I thought you saw the nuance
    Unless this has nothing to do with the other thread
    If not I apologize

    I’m still trying to figure out if rebdoniel was a real convert

    #2188368

    “I thought you saw the nuance”
    I don’t deny that there is nuance in that case, but I haven’t seen a satisfying argument to be matir. I guess the best thing that can be said is “the local beis din was matir and we aren’t zoche to understand the reasons.” That being said, the people trying to make logical justifications essentially sound like the post I just made on this thread.

    Rebdoniel was actually an Avi Weiss/Mark Angel convert by his own admission (not sure if that was on this thread or elsewhere). He renounced his OO’ness on this thread after finding out they don’t hold that the US Constitution was divinely authored. After that, he seemed to stop posting here. I assume he either renounced Judaism altogether after learning we don’t believe that Hashem wrote the Constitution, or he became more frum and realized he shouldn’t waste time on internet forums.

    #2188374
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    I know who Rebdoniel is. He was not a straight convert, it was a giyur l’chumrah. He actually doesn’t really follow OO anymore. He became a serious learner, and is now a Rabbi. I believe he specializes in things related to Chevra Kadisha.

    #2188436

    Neville, your question is already addressed in Mishna. An Yid was approached by Samaritans and paid money to confuse Rabban Gamliel about rosh hodesh. He took the money and fulfilled the deal – told the beis din that he saw a cow in the sky, etc. The psak was that he did not have to return the money. So, maybe you can sign up so that they pay you to convert other Yidden, take 1000 books and use them to heat your house. win-win-win.

    #2188512
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “ I assume he either renounced Judaism altogether after learning we don’t believe that Hashem wrote the Constitution,“

    Hashem decides everything especially laws of countries

    לב שרים ומלכים ביד ה׳

    #2188797

    Shailah: I purchased a copy of the US Constitution at a gift shop, but now I want to throw it away because my Gender Studies professor told me that the founding fathers were all evil racists. Can I throw it away in the regular trash, or does it require geniza?

    Teshuvah: Firstly, you should not have purchased it to begin with because your professor is right. However, it does have some level of kedushah. As the famous story goes, a ger came to Avi Weiss and asked him to teach the entire Torah standing on one foot, Rabbi Weiss replied “dina malchusa Torah he! The rest is commentary.” The ger didn’t understand, but we converted him anyway.

    The point is, following dina malchusa is at least as important as the Torah itself, whether that country be the US, North Korea, or even occupied Palestine. Properly filing taxes is more important than keeping kosher, which is why we now offer our “yosher” hashgacha based on business practices rather than outdated dietary rituals. We can be m’dayek from all this that the laws of any given country are straight from Hashem.

    #2188832
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Neville….that was gold

    #2188839

    > Properly filing taxes is more important than keeping kosher,

    Chofetz Chaim writes about letzanim who somehow think that kashrus is min ha Torah, while other lavim from the torah are, in his words “eitza tova”.

    Specifically, when Polish government put “stringent” requirements on the cleanliness of Mikvaos, he suggeste to lobby Polish politicians, but also to try to collect funds to make mikvas according to the new laws, no suggestions to go around the new rules.

    #2188920

    “Chofetz Chaim writes about letzanim who somehow think that kashrus is min ha Torah, while other lavim from the torah are, in his words “eitza tova”.”

    Hey, at least the people in his day considered those halachos “eitza tova.” That’s more than YCT can say about the halachos they’ve chosen to ignore and belittle.

    #2189784
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Shailah: Dear Rabbah, Now that I have transitioned to reflect my true inner self, do I continue being a kohen like when I was trapped in my birth body? Or am I now a new person and should begin a new spiritual journey from scratch? Your student who learned to seek emotional justifications without boundaries

    Teshuvah: Wow! You are a true cis Yisrael! (Name that Jacob assumed when he recovered from his hallucinations after realizing that he had misjudged his brother Esau.) We our so proud you are part of our chevrah! (Groupthink) The new you is of a most high spiritual status. We would love to receive your brachos! (Catechism that reminds us to think of the environment before we eat.)

    Ideally, you should still go up to the duchan (Platform in front of the holy [According to some.] ark. Or wherever else we decide to put it.) for Birkas Kohanim. (Catechism about equality and equity.) However, the Talmud (A set of legends that we are in the process of reinventing.) records a tradition that the Shechinah (God’s Presence. The feeling of being below the Kohanim made the Jews of yore depressed and delusional.) rests on the Kohen’s hands. Therefore the congregation is forbidden from staring at the Kohanim so that they shouldn’t be uncomfortable. (We have to be cognizant that elitists are very ashamed of their own religion.) The halachah states that a Kohen may not bless the people if there is cause for the congregation to gaze at his hands. [We are all looking at the kiddush (Ritualistic rite to invite non Jews to come dine with us) menu anyways. We read the menu already. At this point in the service, we are hiding our phones inside them.] Surely, our chevra (elitist groupthink) will admire your courage to be your true self and may not abstain from gazing where they shouldn’t. (Because we never tell anybody not to do anything.)

    Therefore, I think you would be better suited for a higher spiritual blessing. By my authority as Rabbah, (City in the Bible) I am adding a new section to the tefillah (A composition of prayers that was unjustly foisted on the public). In between the two supplication’s after birkhat hashachar (Blessed be the black one.) you will then bless the chevrah (Plain old elitism.) that they should find the courage to be their true selves and arbitrate their religious conflicts as they see fit.

    Please let me know if you plan to attend services monthly, yearly, or depending on who sponsors the kiddush (Actually, it’s a sacrament that atones for Jews that wouldn’t share their wine with non Jews.) so that I can compose a special nusach. (Either cantorial piece or mumbling.)

    Hatzlachah! (A man may now spit at you if you don’t take off his shoe.)

    PS I know that you don’t care for Hebrew. I am now passing this to Quintasha to translate the words you may not understand. Even though she is not Jewish, I thought it was proper to have her as my assistant. She is especially interested in impressionable young people like yourself. You can reach out to her directly for any guidance on your exciting journey.

    Epilogue: Dear Rabbah, I decided I won’t be coming back to services after all. Quintasha taught me a lot about equity and I am going to Africa to help the natives by joining ISIS. Thanks for always standing by me!

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by YW Moderator-25.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by n0mesorah. Reason: spelling
    #2189937

    Uh oh… That’s actually kind of an interesting shailah when you think about it.

    From my understanding, most poskim say that the person remains their birth gender with maybe some exceptions. So, couldn’t an artificial female actually duchan? Would it be a problem of bal mum?

    #2190001
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Neville, check out sefer Dor tahapuchos, which is all about transgender issues. For social things, like where to sit in shul, a person who changed genders, whether for pikuach nefesh or stam b’issur, sits with the one he “changed” into, but for all halacha issues, like kidushin, etc, he remains a man according to everyone. People like to throw around a tzitz eliezer who never would have dreamed of people changing their gender the way they do today; he writes about babies being born with defects and having doctors do surgery to determine the gender, etc

    #2190026

    It seems strange that a man would be allowed to daven on the woman’s side, but I’ll take your word for it; I don’t have access to the sefer you mentioned.

    I would imagine that if such a person made teshuvah, the advice would be for them to get a haircut, lose the dress, and start identifying as a man again even if the surgical aspects are irreversible. If he’s still halachically a guy, then I’m not sure why he would be advised to continue dressing as a woman and sitting on the woman’s side. If we’re talking about a person who is unrepentant and wants to continue identifying as the falsified gender, then I think the question is best answered by N0mesorah’s TCT teshuvah above.

    #2190028
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Neville, definitely! We’re talking about people who are mentally ill and liable to kill themselves if their fantasies aren’t indulged. Issurim of lo yilbash, mesares, etc, are chamur, but not yehereg velo yaavor, so the poskim allow it for pikuach nefesh.

    The dor tahapuchos, which was kept under the radar for many years and was used only by rabbonim who were asked such shailos back when society was a bit more sane, is now available to the public. It was reviewed by an odom gadol, i just forgot which one. You can find it online, too.

    His chidush about shul and other social situations is that others will look at him as a woman, and That’s taaruvos.

    But for these people it’s usually not about doing teshuvah so much as getting psychiatric help. If they’re cured of their illness and want to go back to being their real gender, then of course they should; no one’s going to argue with that.

    And I’m sure many do it b’issur because society tells them that it’s ok and they’re just ready to be oiver; for him, he needs to do teshuva, obviously.

    #2190145

    “We’re talking about people who are mentally ill and liable to kill themselves if their fantasies aren’t indulged. Issurim of lo yilbash, mesares, etc, are chamur, but not yehereg velo yaavor, so the poskim allow it for pikuach nefesh.”

    I can’t tell if you’re actually being serious or getting this thread back on theme. There is no way threat of suicide can be used as a real heter. This would be the omni-heter. Example:

    Shailah: I’m addicted to posting on the CR and doing other things on my computer, so Shabbos is really boring and depressing. Can I just stop being shomer shabbos?

    YCT Teshuvah: Well, if it would help your quality of life, then yes. A poor quality of life can lead to suicide, therefore it’s a matter of pikuach nefesh.

    It’s also medically misguided and seems to be taking pointers from leftist activists who frankly make up most of the medical field. Indulging a mental illness does not make it go away. That’s like saying the cure to alcoholism is more alcohol. These people commit suicide because they’re insane, not because “society” doesn’t play their little game.

    #2190160
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    I hear the analogy of alcohol to help alcoholism; honestly i don’t remember the entire discussion…i don’t have the sefer with me; i only saw it in a beis medrash once, and discussed it out of curiosity with a posek I’m friendly with. It was surprising to me as well

    #2190156
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Neville, i should be clearer; that’s exactly how poskim discuss transgender people. If someone is suicidal, we don’t tell them that they cannot do those issurim; that particular mental illness induces suicide very often; it’s not a quality of life issue. This is how rabbonim have been paskening since these shailos started; it’s all in that sefer.

    It’s very easy for me to look at someone delusional and tell them what’s real and how messed up they are and how they can just work on it and they’ll be fine, etc… But it’s not going to stop them. The delusions are extremely powerful.

    Obviously every alternative should be sought first and the person shouldn’t be made to feel as though it’s ok to do what he’s doing, but stopping someone from committing suicide is considered pikuach nefesh.

    But there are limits; even under pain of suicide a man cannot marry another man, etc.. No matter what he “identifies” as.

    #2190261
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Shailah: Dear Rabbah, My parents are coming to The Mission. The are ultra-ultra Orthodox. (Dad does not watch television on the shabbos and Mom covers her hair sometimes.) They want to go out to eat with me. I suggested Manny’s. They refused. In their narrow view, the fact that the food is being prepared by homeless non-Jews does not suffice to make it Kosher. Am I obligated to honor my parents and eat somewhere else. I can’t imagine I would have to turn my back on Manny’s and support a non affiliated establishment😢😢😢😢😢😢😢

    Teshuvah: Dear Activist (She forgot to sign her name) Honoring ones parents is very important when living in the bay area. (Who else will pay for your rent so you can live near where you protest about homelessness?) Also, you may be able to influence them to see how the torah want’s us to be Woke. (That way they won’t try telling her any Torah. Can’t have the competition.) However, the Talmud says the commandment to honor our parents only applies when they are included in our mitzvos. A quick glance at your Facebook page shows that you are at your best when you participate in Manny’s drive to help the locals. (Check her posts. Outside of Manny’s she acts like trash.) Since your parents will not go to Manny’s they are not with you in your mitzvos and you are not obligated to honor them. So they can go Kosher without you. (She is too cheap to pay for kosher food.)

    Postscript: Hi it’s Quintasha. Rabbah send me the above to edit. I’m supposed to delete the those lines and just keep them in mind. However, I figured I’ll leave them and just tell you the truth. The only way you are getting the cheaper product with the Woke label, is by exploiting the workers and others. Manny’s is not more ethical or kosher than anywhere else. At least McDonalds doesn’t claim to be on the workers side.

    #2190530

    Avira: no, it’s me that needs to be clearer. I’m saying that you can quote that sefer as many times as you want, and it’s not going to change my mind. It’s just a depressing example of how many contemporary poskim have submitted to the whims of the “expert class” on anything that can be construed as a medical issue, even when the decision makes absolutely no medical or halachic sense.

    And for the record, the fact that this sefer is stand-alone on this issue does not automatically imply that everyone accepts it as authoritative. It could just be that nobody else thought it was worth addressing this issue; just like there are no sforim about how to live a fulfilling life as a frum homosexual. If a YCT rabbi went ahead and wrote one (if they haven’t already), the lack of competition would not imply agreement.

    n0m: thanks for getting this back on track.

    #2190565
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Neville, it’s not without precedent. Most(if not all) poskim allow abortion if a mother is suicidal, due to either being a victim or the like.

    No one’s saying to embrace gender nonsense or to teach people that it’s ok “if you really really want it and if it’s too difficult for you not to,” which is the MO line of apikorsus.

    What we’re saying is that if a person comes to a rov and says that they will kill themselves if they are permitted to go after their fantasies, we say that it’s pikuach nefesh and we allow most things that they want to do.

    It’s not something to celebrate, it’s not a legitimate identity, it’s none of those things.

    The same thing is told to drug addicts who might overdose, that they can call people on shabbos. Even though the normal reaction is – hey, just don’t take the drugs.

    Rabbonim understand people. And they’re not just blindly listening to the gender bender “experts” who know less about physiology than a 4 year old who knows that boys and girls are different.

    What they’re doing is saving lives. Pikuach nefesh is docheh everything except the 3 chamuros.

    Now it could be argued that even for pikuach nefesh we won’t allow a community wide pirtzah, as in the case of ma’achurei hageder in the gemara, where we said it was better for the man who was obsessed with a girl to die rather than merely shmooze with her from across a fence(there are two shitos about that gemara; either abizrayhu is yehereg velo yaavor, or what I said above, that it’s a migdar milsa that such things shouldn’t becomr normalized)

    Actually, according to those who hold that abizrayhu is yehereg velo yaavor…lo yilbash is an abizrayhu. However, even according to that opinion, the patient is not dressing that way in order to mix in, which is why some poskim allow it for Purim etc…we don’t follow those poskim regarding Purim, but there were communities that did, so that’s enough for our inyan which involves pikuach nefesh.

    edited

    #2190567
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Also, one can question the status of lo yilbash being abizrayhu for someone who is physically incapable of biah. Yet he is capable of other issurim(lo sikravu, etc..) so perhaps it’s veiter an abizrayhu.

    #2190572
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Shailah: Dear Rabbah, When is the best day to protest racial injustice?

    Teshuvah: The prophet clearly told us ‘to let down our burden on the seventh day’. In our times this clearly means the burden of systemic racism. Therefore Shabbos seems like the ideal time to protest. This Shabbos there is a double social incentive. Those who stay home may end up watching the PGA, and it’s racist exclusion of the Saudis. I am planning on protesting the soup kitchen near our shul. They should be in a more disadvantaged neighborhood. It must be traumatic for all the poor and homeless to have to see the racial disparity between our homes and theirs.

    #2190753

    Avira: So all I have to do is threaten to kill myself and I can do whatever I want? Sweet! Can’t wait to try this out.

    Shailah: I really don’t want to have to pay my taxes this year. If I can’t cheat on my taxes, I’m going to kill myself. What should I do?

    Teshuvah: You still have to pay your taxes. Even the suicide-omni-heter cannot free one from the obligation of paying taxes. It only works on silly, outdated stuff from the Torah, not REAL issues like making non-Jews like you.

    Dang. Better luck next time I guess.

    #2190776
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Neville, here are some sources on true threat of suicide being pikuach nefesh vis a vis violation of issurim.

    Emek Halacha, from rav Yitzchok zilberstein, 205-209.

    Rav shlomo zalman writes that since the mother’s mental condition can be treated with therapy, we don’t allow abortion
    1( English Nishmas Avraham, Choshen Mishpat, 425:11, p. 288.)

    But rav shlomo zalman would agree that if the therapy isn’t working, as is the case with many of these gender delusional people, that it would be allowed if there is serious fear of death

    #2190967

    “But rav shlomo zalman would agree that if the therapy isn’t working, as is the case with many of these gender delusional people”

    Bingo. So, what he is saying is that if therapy doesn’t work, then transition surgery WILL work. This is not supported by science or anything other than leftist quackery. L’maaseh, they’ll kill themselves anyway. The transition does not help. If anything it makes things worse. What a shocker, the Torah was actually right about assering it I guess.

    The rabbonim were awfully quiet about all the suicides and overdoses caused by the 2020 lockdowns that many of them supported. I’ll spell this out again: they only apply the suicide-omni-heter to leftist political causes. This isn’t coincidence. This is the side effect of consulting with doctors and making the mistake of assuming they’re impartial. This practice needs to stop, and I’ll criticize it no matter who does it and no matter how black his hat is.

    #2191001
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Neville,

    You need to get better rabbonim. (Some ‘enjoyed’ the quiet.) But the best were non stop involved in the hidden problems that were rising to the surface. And there have been plenty more suicides and overdoses since the lockdowns. So what’s your halachic take on suicides. Are you promoting the argument or the position?

    #2191009
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    There is a major mistake being perpetuated here. That being, that the person asking the question is the one who the question is about. Outside our fictitious YCT postings, these questions are generally from a rabbi who has a trans congregant. The individual is likely on their way out. But the rabbi has some tough questions in the meantime. There are entire sections of the SA that aren’t supposed to happen. Yet there are all kinds of SHU”T dealing with what is permitted therein even though it is not advisable.

    #2191050

    “You need to get better rabbonim. (Some ‘enjoyed’ the quiet.) ”
    Who spoke out about the suicides caused by the lockdowns? To my knowledge, most rabbis have never retracted their support of the lockdowns even since the academic world has started to admit they were destructive and caused these mental health problems. If you know some better rabbonim who did address the issues, I would like to hear.

    “So what’s your halachic take on suicides.”
    There’s no question that it’s assur. Nobody is debating that.

    “Are you promoting the argument or the position?”
    I don’t understand the question.

    Anyways, we should honestly move this elsewhere. I feel like I’m desecrating papa’s thread.

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