August 5, 2011 2:51 am at 2:51 am #598453GraciasMember
The court also today released Aron’s handwritten confession that gave the chilling details and timeline of the crime. He brought Leiby into the wedding with him to eat, the night he picked him up. The next day the child stayed at his house alone while he went to work. That is where he saw the missing child posters and panicked. And he committed the fatal crime just a very short time before the police came to his house after tracing his car. He was alive for almost the entire duration of the massive search for him.
Rav Dovid Goldwasser was at today’s court arraignment for Aron.August 5, 2011 4:04 am at 4:04 am #795995TheGoqParticipant
Whats the point? that its ok to hate him because hes not a real jew? no one who believes in a higher power could have done what he did, it doesn’t matter he is always and forever going to be seen as that Jewish murderer. No matter how much you want to you cannot disassociate him from his roots.August 5, 2011 4:10 am at 4:10 am #795996quark2Member
i was in the barber shop, and i saw on tv that he wasn’t wearing a yarmulke. Of course this should be confirmed with a Rav, but i would say that it is a big mitzvah for him to not keep mitzvos now, when the scrutiny of the entire america is on this horrifying case.August 5, 2011 4:28 am at 4:28 am #795997HaLeiViParticipant
Very true, Goq, but it makes one feel better to be able to comfortably reassure one’s self that a Yid is removed from such behavior. Problem is, by now he’s not the only murderer on our consciousness.August 5, 2011 4:41 am at 4:41 am #795998
Nothing he does right now is as important as what he did. Nothing he says is believable. He had said earlier that he did not take Leiby into the wedding but left him in the parking lot. All of a sudden his story changed? He was seen on the wedding video without Leiby, so did he just let him walk around the hall by himself? Would he have taken that chance? But no one at the wedding saw him there. At this point in time someone would have come forward and said they saw him at the wedding.
He said he was surprised that Leiby was still in his apartment when he got home from work so he made him a sandwich, etc. But now we know that he drugged him and tied him up. Let him keep talking so he digs his own grave.August 5, 2011 4:46 am at 4:46 am #795999HaLeiViParticipant
Agree with aries, completely.August 5, 2011 5:02 am at 5:02 am #796000observanteenMember
I think it does make a difference. Simply because, this goes to show that an ehrliche yid wouldn’t do anything like that. I think it can somewhat restore a bit of our trust in ehrliche Yidden.August 5, 2011 5:22 am at 5:22 am #796001mamashtakahMember
So what? Does it really make a difference whether he at McDonalds? Does anyone really care?August 5, 2011 5:35 am at 5:35 am #796002WolfishMusingsParticipant
Let me get this straight…
… you’re using the fact that he may have eaten treif as “proof” that he is not religious? Was the murder itself not enough for you to come to that conclusion?
The WolfAugust 5, 2011 8:45 am at 8:45 am #796003MichaelCMember
You are what you eat. Trief animals have worse middos then Kosher animals (see Talmud Chullin). So eating treif makes you a more wicked person.
Esoterically there is a explanation for this. (see Chida and Kabbalistic sources for a elaboration for this, e.g. Girgulim Neshomos of Reshaim are in treif so a person who eats treif abosrb there souls and becomes like them).August 5, 2011 10:37 am at 10:37 am #796004OfcourseMember
Goq, No matter how much you want to you cannot disassociate him from his roots.
Right! To the world at large, the details are irrelevant. He is a Jew.August 5, 2011 12:08 pm at 12:08 pm #796005yaakov doeParticipant
Isn’t this clearly loshon hora during the 9 days?August 5, 2011 1:12 pm at 1:12 pm #796006akupermaParticipant
or maybe he is religious and is insane, since eating treff by a frum Jew could suggest insanity (just as wanting to eat worms by a “normal” American might suggest insanity) – of course to a secular shrink, wanting to eat treff might be seen as proof of sanityAugust 5, 2011 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #796007
“I think it does make a difference. Simply because, this goes to show that an ehrliche yid wouldn’t do anything like that. I think it can somewhat restore a bit of our trust in ehrliche Yidden.”
unfortunatly that is not the case…there are too many examples of child molestors that are “ehrliche”.August 5, 2011 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #796009
“I think it does make a difference. Simply because, this goes to show that an ehrliche yid wouldn’t do anything like that. I think it can somewhat restore a bit of our trust in ehrliche Yidden.”
The murderer of Baba Elazar Abuchatzeria z’l was a Cheder Rebbe.
The murderer of Yitzcah Rabin was a frum jew.
To paraphrase R’ Moshe Tuvia Lieff shlita. Yidden can rise to the greatest heights and sinks to the greatest depths (his words, to the tehom), it is one of the reasons hashem told Avram his descendents would be like the stars and the sand.August 5, 2011 1:55 pm at 1:55 pm #796010PeacemakerMember
mike: There are no cases of child molesters who are ehrlich. observenteen is right on the money.August 5, 2011 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #796011
What Mike and Peacemaker are both saying, albeit in very different ways, is that molesters are not ehrliche people, even if there are some who give off the appearance of being just that.August 5, 2011 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #796013
Peacemaker…I can give you examples with names, but my post would be blocked…
“apushatayid”…I AGREE 100% with your statementAugust 5, 2011 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #796016
mikehall, unfortunately I can back you up 100% and some were already outed to the publicAugust 5, 2011 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #796018
aries2756….Sadly I know you can..just goes to show you can’t judge a book by it’s cover…the REAL problem is when they go unreported and swept under the rug by “ehrlich” JewsAugust 5, 2011 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #796019MiddlePathParticipant
aries and mikehall, unfortunately, I know only too well about an example of that, and thankfully, it got reported. But for a while, it didn’t. And that’s also a problem.August 6, 2011 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #796020hello99Participant
where is quark? I was looking forward to hearing him argue that there is nothing wrong with McDonalds. most cows are not treifos. Also, the cheese is only placed on the hot burger, and davar gush b’kli sheini is not derech bishul, so no basar b’chalav either. (please don’t take this post as serious halacha. the meat is certainly neveila, and there is at least bbc derabbanan)August 7, 2011 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #796021
Mike -“the REAL problem is when they go unreported and swept under the rug by “ehrlich” Jews”
Wrong. They are worse than the molesters. The molesters just have sick Taavos, but the protectors have absolutely NO excuse! They are the farthest thing from “ehrlich” Jews!August 7, 2011 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #796022observanteenMember
“unfortunatly that is not the case…there are too many examples of child molestors that are “ehrliche”.”
That’s right. I take back my first statement. After hearing yet another story of an “ehrliche” molestor, I see that there’s absolutely NO ONE we can trust. SIGH.August 7, 2011 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #796023am yisrael chaiParticipant
At least we (on the whole) are ACKNOWLEDGING the problem, definitely a step up from when incidents would be swept under the carpet &/or asserting that they could never have happened.
Here’s hoping that we can finally solve the problem…
with deep help for both victimizers & victims.August 7, 2011 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #796024
The fact Levi Aron was a McDonalds-eating non-Orthodox makes a lot of sense.
Whatever he was, it is clear from the Police Commissioner and District Attorney that Aron was not a sexual predator, and had no criminal history at all in that area (or any area for that matter, other than some single unrelated misdemeanor.)
There was no way for any human being to predict what Aron was capable of doing (murder) beforehand, and even if there was there was and could be no legal mechanism to do anything about it or to commit him involuntarily before he committed any crime.
It is also sad that it turned out that the massive search for the child is what scared and caused Aron to panic and do what he did. It was entirely unpredictable, and the massive search was the right thing to do nonetheless, not being able to possibly predict such an outcome.August 7, 2011 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #796025
I didn’t read all the posts so forgive me if someone alse said the same thing but this is what I told my kids when they asked me if the killer was frum, “He might have pretended to be frum but since killing someone is against the torah then he is not frum”.
I thing that eating non kosher pales in comperison.August 7, 2011 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #796026
When someone eats in McDonalds, he is not even pretending to be frum. Aron was as frum or Orthodox as Bernie Madoff.August 7, 2011 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #796027
“When someone eats in McDonalds, he is not even pretending to be frum. Aron was as frum or Orthodox as Bernie Madoff. “
But he went to shul regulerly.August 7, 2011 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #796028
I doubt that. Source?August 7, 2011 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #796029
He lied about many things and we can see and we will still see. In addition we are learning more things than was released earlier. WE have no way of knowing what he has done before and cannot be sure about whether or NOT he molested the child. So that is still a question up in the air that remains unanswered and we can’t assume one way or the other, it is an unanswered question because he is lying and there are things that are not being shared. Just this weekend the Daily News revealed something about the “butchering” that we did not know before. I am not going to go into that details, if you don’t know all the better for you. And I am positive that that was only part of it, as I have heard more. So there are things that will still come out about him.
The real question as to why in the world he would pick him up to begin with is still a mystery. Why would he take him to Monsey is still a mystery. At first we were told that he was left in the car and there was no sign of the boy on the wedding or surveillance video at the Hall. Now he claims that he took him in to the dinner. He claimed that he was surprised that the boy was still there waiting for him when he got home from work, but the ME said he was tied and drugged. YOU are choosing to believe the child was NOT molested or he never molested any children because HE said so, or because there was no evidence on the body? As if he couldn’t have washed the evidence off the child?August 7, 2011 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #796030
It was in the news.August 7, 2011 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #796031
The NYC Police Commissioner Ray Kelly and the Brooklyn District Attorney Charles Hynes both unequivocally stated there was no sex crimes in this case or in any previous history of Aron. They stated so on the record. And they have access to all the lab results for the tests they ran and the investigations they conducted. You do not.August 7, 2011 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #796032
You are so naive. They also stated that they found the feet in the freezer. They did not state that they found any other body parts in the home, nor did they state that Aron told them how he dismember the body piece by piece. They can say whatever they want to the public, they are NOT under oath in their interviews as they will be when they testify in court. In addition they did NOT say that they were “unequivocally certain “they said “at this time there is no evidence to prove” that is two very different ways of giving over a message. However, at any time in the future evidence, such as a confession, or dna evidence on the boy’s clothing can prove otherwise.August 7, 2011 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #796033
Yes, you know better than the Commissioner and DA combined. As an aside, Aron’s confession bore out in all respects. But that is almost a side point. The fact is they already ran the DNA lab results, and the Commissioner and DA are privy to the results while you are not. And the DNA results were negative. The Commissioner and DA would risk derailing the prosecution by making a public statement — at a press conference no less — stating that there was no molestation if there was even a slight possibility that later they would find that. Yes both the Commissioner and DA publicly stated there was none, something they wouldn’t have if there was any possibility of prosecuting for that. Now the defense will have those statements on record if they add such a charge. They would never have said what they said if it would risk a charge.August 7, 2011 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #796034
shlishi, obviously you can choose to hear what you want, believe what you want to and understand what you want to. The police commissioner and DA combined chose not to say that Aron chopped up the boy’s whole body. They only made reference to the boy’s feet. They know how to say the things they want people to hear and know at that time and they know how to hide certain things so the public should not know. More information was just released to the press from Aron’s written statement at the arraignment. No one knew that he didn’t eat kosher until that time either. There are still a lot more things that was not released yet.
I choose to wait till the whole truth comes out in court which I hope and pray the family will not attend or have any knowledge of. I am sure that you didn’t know about his best friend until we found out about him today when the interview was released today. I am sure there will be more information that is released after the cops interview him more and as more people come forward that knew him whether that is in person or on the internet.
But since you are so sure that the commissioner and the DA disclosed absolutely everything that you need to know and the case is closed in your mind, I have no problem with that. YOU are entitled to believe whatever you choose to believe. I don’t gain or lose anything by you believing what you want. I don’t gain or lose anything finding out the truth about this case other than opening the eyes of the Olam who choose to still be blind to this topic and keep shoving their heads, deeper and deeper into the sand like you are doing. Even the possibility of this happening to this poor child is out of the question with you. How does that help the situation? If you understand that this was a possibility then you would understand how to protect your children, the simple ABC’s. A – always tell mommy everything. Never keep secrets from mommy. B- Be aware. Even people that you recognize and don’t seem like strangers can be dangerous. Don’t go anywhere with anyone unless Mommy or Tatty told you beforehand that an arrangement was made for you to go with them. C- call out. If someone approaches you, grabs you, touches you inappropriate, speaks to you inappropriately, or shows parts of themselves to you CALL OUT and draw attention to yourself. Scream if someone tries to grab you “this is NOT my MOMMMY, Tatty, brother or whomever they are pretending to be. Scream, yell and run away even if it is a Rebbe who is trying to take you in a room alone with him it is against the rules.
Furthermore every classroom should have windows in the doors that you can look into. Never allow a teacher to cover those windows up.August 8, 2011 12:05 am at 12:05 am #796035Ben LeviParticipant
What happened with Leiby is a terrible tragedy. It is a tragedy that shook the foundations of Klal Yisroel.
It is a tragedy that shook our belief in ourselves and caused a massive degree of introspection.
The fact that the Killer was no longer religous is of little comfort.
He went to Yeshivos, he grew up amongstus.
Such s thing has never ever occurred and should never occur and when if it does then yes all of us must look deep inside and ask what went wrong with our chinuch system that such atragedy can happen.
However it boggles the mind that there are those who wish to use this tragedy to further their own ends.
We are told “go to the police they are the pro’s Beis Din does not know how to investigate these things”.
Well now the pro’s have said that all evidence shows there was no molestation and the confession was more or less accurate not completley, but more or less.
Yet some people continue to cling to the their agenda.
With all due respect, I beleive that is dangerous.
It is very easy to say that we have to learn from this the ABC’s or to protect our children.
All that does is exempt us completley.
Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky shlita is in his eighties and is reported to have said that he lived through a lot but never saw something like this happen.
Rav Elyashiv and Rav Chaim Kanievsky two of the Gedolei HaDor refused to ansewer why such a thing happened.
We are left with one thing only.
It happened amongst us.
We must all take reponsibilty.
W emust all look inside of each of ourselves and ask “where was their room for such unprecedented evil to come from within our midst?
Where did our chinuch sytem change?
Where did our culture change.
We must ask these questions, we dare not take the easy way out and we must say “Never Again” will such a thing happen amongst us.August 8, 2011 12:07 am at 12:07 am #796036
aries: Now you are just changing the subject. On the issue of abuse, both the Commissioner and DA have addressed the subject. And it was negative. Unless, of course, you are wiser than them both.August 8, 2011 3:19 am at 3:19 am #796037
shlishy -“When someone eats in McDonalds, he is not even pretending to be frum.”
Wrong, he was pretending to be Frum. He might not keep Kosher when he is amongst Goyim esp. after he was arrested, but that doesn’t mean he didn’t put on a show beforehand. The Frum community has a problem believing we have some very bad people amongst us. This is why a lot want to say -“Oh he wasn’t really Frum”. You can say that on anyone who does really bad Aveiros. The problem is we keep failing to realize that we have problems and problematic people. In order to try to work on ourselves -the first thing we have to do is stop the Denial. With being in denial we can’t even begin the Teshuva process!August 8, 2011 4:19 am at 4:19 am #796038
shlishi, I am NOT changing the subject at all. I am praying that HE didn’t molest Leiby. It just doesn’t make sense. Why did he take him? I also don’t believe that Leiby asked him for directions nor that Leiby changed his mind and agreed to go with him to Monsey. I am not buying any of these lies. I am also saying that the complete truth has yet to be disclosed. YOU choose to believe that the whole truth has already been disclosed. WE obviously disagree. YOU claim I have an agenda, I feel YOU have an agenda and that is to keep sweeping this issue under the rug. The Agudah and the RCA has come out and said to go to the authorities. That has been long in coming for the Agudah and now they are finally where they should have been a long time ago. Could Leiby have been saved? Yes possibly. Was it Leiby’s time to die? Only Hashem knows but in my humble opinion if it was his time to go probably NOT in this horrific way. And if it was his time to go, there still could have been a meilitz yosher who could have intervened for him. Again in my opinion.
My problem is with people who keep interfering with the need to teach parents, mechanchim and children of the internal and external dangers facing our children. This danger unfortunately presents itself both in the home, in the school, in the shul, in the mikveh and in the streets. Everywhere where you think you can relax because it is a safe haven, can still be a danger zone. Unfortunately, we can’t take anything for granted and educating the K’lal is extremely important. Unfortunately when a chochem like you keeps piping in with your nonsense claiming you know what I am thinking and what I want, what I know and what my agenda is, trying to drum up some support you get in the way of educating the public.August 8, 2011 5:12 am at 5:12 am #796039
aries: Despite your agenda, the gedolim and Agudah have never changed their position one iota. Only if there is raglayim ladavar is it permissible. Rav Elyashev has long paskened so. Nothing new there despite all the insinuations. Furthermore, and for the umpteenth time, this case has absolutely nothing to do with molestation despite the agenda you are pushing. This fact has been publicly corroborated by both the NYPD Police Commissioner and District Attorney.
As far as the issue you changed the subject to (unrelated to this case), one must always be vigilant not to falsely report an innocent person, thus destroying an innocent persons life. Hence Rav Elyashev’s psak and the Agudah’s reaffirmation of what always was the case.August 8, 2011 5:19 am at 5:19 am #796040
Shlishi, finally WE agree! Mazal tov! Except for the fact that the Agudah never changed their position one iota. They did change their position which was to always go to a Rav. Now they have finally agreed with Rav Elyashev’s psak.
As a matter of fact at their recent conference with Mental Health professionals, they instructed them to go to a Rav and not report to the authorities even though they were mandated reporters. It was definitely a welcome change on the part of the Agudah! As much as you wish to believe otherwise it won’t change the facts. People who have been begging and pleading as well as petitioning the Agudah for change know this to be true. If you are NOT involved in the parsha on any level you would not have anyway of knowing this. So I don’t expect you to. I will not debate this any further with you. The K’lal needs to be educated, period end of the story.August 8, 2011 5:23 am at 5:23 am #796041
And of course it is vital to remember that the Agudah, per Rav Elyashev’s psak, said one must always speak to a posek before c’v reporting anything, in order to determine if the halachic stipulation of raglayim ladavar has been halachicly met.
This has always been the case.August 8, 2011 5:30 am at 5:30 am #796042
shlishi – Excuse me, but they posted R’ Elashiv’s Psak here and I didn’t see him saying you must ask a Poisek first. Where did you get that one from?August 8, 2011 5:47 am at 5:47 am #796043August 8, 2011 6:35 am at 6:35 am #796044
To all: This seems like Deja Vu from 9 months ago. Shlishi are you Joseph? Because we had this out before with him. If there is Reglyim L’dovor you go to the police. Anybody who says Bshem R’ Elyashiv differently is being Megaleh Ponim BTorah Shelo K’halacha! And I don’t know what the Agudah says, but this is the P’sak from the Godol Hador:
Courtesy of Aries from CR -“Molesters Why do some in our community etc…”
“To my dear friend…HaGaon Rav Shraga Feivel Cohen…?..
But according to what was said [above], in a case that entails tikkun hao/am, governmental authorization is not necessary. However, all of this, to permit notifying the government, is only where it is clear that he participated in the crime. It is in this case that there is an issue of tikkun haolam. But where there is not even circumstantial evidence (rag/ayim /adavar), but only some impression [that he is guilty], then not only is there no issue of tikkun hao/am, but [to the contrary] there is heres haolam (ruination of the world) here. And it is possible that because of a certain bitterness that a student feels toward the teacher and makes a false accusation against him or because of [someone’s] delusion, a person [i.e. the accused] will be put into a situation in which his death will be preferable to his life. And it will be through no fault of his own, and [in that case],4 I see no permit in the matter.
And with this I remain your friend seeking the welfare of your distinguished person of Torah,
Yasef Shalom Elyashlv.”August 8, 2011 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #796045zahavasdadParticipant
Its funny how you are Machmir on Rav Elishav’s Psak here, Do you follow Rav Elishav’s every Psak.
If you are going to be Machmir on Rav Elishav on this issue, why not always follow Rav Elishav. One cannot pick and choose poskim by the issueAugust 8, 2011 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #796046
Shlishi – So why should anyone follow what the Agudah says? It sounds to me that nothing has really changed because they just found a way to circumvent the Psak. Because guess what some of these Rabbonim will tell you -whatever they have been telling you all along. And I don’t have to elaborate.
“Rather, he should present the facts of the case to a rabbi who is expert in halacha and who also has experience in the area of abuse and molestation”
If such a Rov exists, please name him! I do know that they made a Bais Din in Lakewood to deal with these molesters. But what happened? They started investigating a “chasuva, well connected” guy and they caved in to the pressure of “others” and closed down. The people who continue to protect molesters, esp. the do-gooders are not going to have an easy time Achar Meah Vesrim!August 8, 2011 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #796047
“he should present the facts of the case to a rabbi who is expert in halacha and who also has experience in the area of abuse and molestation”
Do such a group of rabbonim exist? Can someone please tell me how/where to find these rabbonim?August 8, 2011 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #796048MiddlePathParticipant
Such a group of (3) Rabbis was created to deal with my father, and to the best of my knowledge, they still are “in practice” to deal with future cases. I don’t know how much experience they have in the areas of abuse and molestation, but they had enough to deal with my father appropriately. I think they also work together with an organization that deals with all sorts of abuse.
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